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Author Topic: [ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin"  (Read 1149002 times)
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May 16, 2016, 06:22:29 PM
 #6741

OK, I see what he's saying: stopping the lottery reduced the reward from 1000 CLAMs to 1 CLAM per block, so that means the lottery system was like a pre-mine.

The lottery was rigged though... which would be a fairly sneaky way of "premining".

Rat4 (the Blackcoin creator/what clam is forked from) allegedly did it.  

He had around 30% of all the Clamcoins in existence at that point as I recall... or more.

I guess he has even more than 30%!

Since few days the number of the orphan blocks I found has increased drammatically, witht the result that now I find far away less clams than before even if I have more staking amount  Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh

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May 16, 2016, 07:08:15 PM
 #6742

I just dug up my first CLAM, never done it before Cheesy
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May 16, 2016, 07:19:28 PM
 #6743

I just dug up my first CLAM, never done it before Cheesy

Congrats and welcome.  What's your plan with it?
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May 16, 2016, 10:57:39 PM
 #6744

I have been a bit out of the loop, but I see that another whale digger has appered!

Where are you seeing that?

I expect you are noticing that the price is down over the last few days, and jumping to the conclusion that new coins have been dug up, but checking the blockchain I see very little digging since the "whale digger" in December:



Here's a close-up of the time since the whale digger stopped digging:



Note how almost all of the inflation of the money supply in the last 5 months has been a result of staking, not digging, and how recently the total number of coins staked into existence overtook the number of coins dug into existence again.

I expect that this drop in price is the result of someone selling a big batch of CLAMs that they bought cheap from the whale digger in December. They've been holding them until now, hoping the price would go up further, and have just given up waiting. That's just my guess however.

OK, I see what he's saying: stopping the lottery reduced the reward from 1000 CLAMs to 1 CLAM per block, so that means the lottery system was like a pre-mine.

You cut my quote off too early. Check the following two paragraphs and you'll see why the lottery wasn't like a pre-mine at all. It earned you 0.1 CLAMs per block almost all the time, and more very rarely, for an average of *less* than 1 CLAM per block:

OK, I see what he's saying: stopping the lottery reduced the reward from 1000 CLAMs to 1 CLAM per block, so that means the lottery system was like a pre-mine.

Maybe this chart can help show the reality of the situation. Pay attention to how the green supply curve changed when the lottery staking system ended on October 25th last year:



Hint: stopping the lottery caused the supply to increase much more quickly than before.

The lottery was rigged though... which would be a fairly sneaky way of "premining".

Rat4 (the Blackcoin creator/what clam is forked from) allegedly did it.  

He had around 30% of all the Clamcoins in existence at that point as I recall... or more.

I think the lottery was poorly thought out, but not intentionally exploitable. I didn't hear that Rat4 was ever thought to be a major holder of CLAMs. It's possible though.

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May 16, 2016, 11:15:11 PM
 #6745

You cut my quote off too early. Check the following two paragraphs and you'll see why the lottery wasn't like a pre-mine at all. It earned you 0.1 CLAMs per block almost all the time, and more very rarely, for an average of *less* than 1 CLAM per block:

That's not really so clear. Getting coins earlier under PoS is worth more than getting the same number of coins later, because of compounded staking. Someone who exploited the lottery gaining hypothetically 30% of the coin supply then in existence and then continuously staked would have a lot of coins now. I have no idea whether either happened.
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May 17, 2016, 04:37:45 AM
 #6746

That's not really so clear. Getting coins earlier under PoS is worth more than getting the same number of coins later, because of compounded staking. Someone who exploited the lottery gaining hypothetically 30% of the coin supply then in existence and then continuously staked would have a lot of coins now. I have no idea whether either happened.

It's always better to get in early than later for sure. My point is that there were many less CLAMs created by staking during the three months that the lottery ran than in any three month period since then. If you're looking for "the premine", the lottery isn't it. I would suggest that the "whale digger" is a much richer seam to mine if you're looking for a foundation for building a conspiracy theory.

Here's a picture showing the scale of the two things : the whale digger claimed almost 10 times more CLAMs than all the lottery winners combined:



Edit: oh, but I see your point. The lottery created ~60k CLAMs into a market cap of maybe 70k, almost doubling the supply, whereas the whale digger created 500k into an existing supply of 800k, adding only around 60% to the supply, so it's possible that the lottery winners would have ended up with a bigger share of the supply than the whale digger, if they had held and staked their winnings.

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May 17, 2016, 05:48:55 AM
Last edit: May 17, 2016, 06:37:55 AM by smooth
 #6747

Edit: oh, but I see your point. The lottery created ~60k CLAMs into a market cap of maybe 70k, almost doubling the supply, whereas the whale digger created 500k into an existing supply of 800k, adding only around 60% to the supply, so it's possible that the lottery winners would have ended up with a bigger share of the supply than the whale digger, if they had held and staked their winnings.

Exactly. 60k coins way back when is not directly comparable with 500k coins much later. As I've pointed out before during the "let's ban digging" discussion, diggers are already being diluted by letting their CLAMs stay undug for so long, and it gets worse and worse for them as time goes on.

Now if someone had dug 500k during (or immediately after) the lottery era, then indeed 60k would have been worth a lot less in future staking, but that isn't what happened.
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May 17, 2016, 09:11:36 PM
 #6748

Edit: oh, but I see your point. The lottery created ~60k CLAMs into a market cap of maybe 70k, almost doubling the supply, whereas the whale digger created 500k into an existing supply of 800k, adding only around 60% to the supply, so it's possible that the lottery winners would have ended up with a bigger share of the supply than the whale digger, if they had held and staked their winnings.

Exactly. 60k coins way back when is not directly comparable with 500k coins much later. As I've pointed out before during the "let's ban digging" discussion, diggers are already being diluted by letting their CLAMs stay undug for so long, and it gets worse and worse for them as time goes on.

Now if someone had dug 500k during (or immediately after) the lottery era, then indeed 60k would have been worth a lot less in future staking, but that isn't what happened.

OK, but I think the late 500k dig is still 'bigger' than the 60k lottery, even when adjusted for inflation.

The 60k lottery winnings diluted a 70k supply, so the lottery winnings represented 60/130 of the supply. By the time the whale digger appeared, a further 450k had been staked. The lottery winnings would have staked 60/130 of that, or 207k, and so would have been worth around 207k+60k = 267k in total. The digger dug up 500k coins, so around twice as much even after adjusting for inflation.

But yeah, the whale digger was only twice as big as all the lottery winners combined, not ten times as big as I previously claimed. Smiley

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May 20, 2016, 05:02:55 AM
 #6749

My router has upnp setup does work with the clam coin client.   I saw same thing in the bitcoin core client but then it was fixed at some point.  Anyhow, what are the correct udp or tcp ports that need to be opened for home router to accept inbound traffic.

Thanks.
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May 21, 2016, 02:51:13 AM
 #6750

I think the lottery was poorly thought out, but not intentionally exploitable. I didn't hear that Rat4 was ever thought to be a major holder of CLAMs. It's possible though.

Not sure if this would considered exploitable, but you could have gained quite an advantage by only staking selectively. Staking disabled by default; call GetProofOfStakeReward right after a new block arrives, then enable staking ONLY if the reward for the next block is sufficient. In addition to not wasting stakes on 0.1 reward blocks, by ignoring those the overall weight when it does attempt to stake would be greater.
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May 21, 2016, 07:24:10 AM
 #6751

Can anyone tell me a good size for each input in desktop wallet to maximize staking?  I was told 10-15, I was thinking 25?

Any assistance would be appreciated. Smiley
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May 21, 2016, 09:33:03 AM
 #6752

Can anyone tell me a good size for each input in desktop wallet to maximize staking?  I was told 10-15, I was thinking 25?

Any assistance would be appreciated. Smiley
these issues haunts me as well Smiley dooglus  mention about ~30 clam input, but I think This applies only to very long-term,
because first reward you have to wait very long-  40-50 day. (in case 10-15 input , even 3-4 month)

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May 21, 2016, 09:57:10 AM
 #6753

Can anyone tell me a good size for each input in desktop wallet to maximize staking?  I was told 10-15, I was thinking 25?

Any assistance would be appreciated. Smiley
these issues haunts me as well Smiley dooglus  mention about ~30 clam input, but I think This applies only to very long-term,
because first reward you have to wait very long-  40-50 day. (in case 10-15 input , even 3-4 month)

Any of those are fine, it doesn't really matter. The main thing is just not to have one huge output.
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May 21, 2016, 10:12:24 AM
 #6754

Can anyone tell me a good size for each input in desktop wallet to maximize staking?  I was told 10-15, I was thinking 25?

Any assistance would be appreciated. Smiley
these issues haunts me as well Smiley dooglus  mention about ~30 clam input, but I think This applies only to very long-term,
because first reward you have to wait very long-  40-50 day. (in case 10-15 input , even 3-4 month)

Any of those are fine, it doesn't really matter. The main thing is just not to have one huge output.
Damn does it really take 40-50 days for the first reward?
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May 21, 2016, 10:16:43 AM
 #6755

Can anyone tell me a good size for each input in desktop wallet to maximize staking?  I was told 10-15, I was thinking 25?

Any assistance would be appreciated. Smiley
these issues haunts me as well Smiley dooglus  mention about ~30 clam input, but I think This applies only to very long-term,
because first reward you have to wait very long-  40-50 day. (in case 10-15 input , even 3-4 month)

Any of those are fine, it doesn't really matter. The main thing is just not to have one huge output.
Damn does it really take 40-50 days for the first reward?

I think that was per-output. If you have many of these small outputs, one of them will stake sooner.

Currently you need something in the neighborhood of 1000 CLAMS to stake once per day.
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May 21, 2016, 10:33:04 AM
 #6756

Can anyone tell me a good size for each input in desktop wallet to maximize staking?  I was told 10-15, I was thinking 25?

Any assistance would be appreciated. Smiley
these issues haunts me as well Smiley dooglus  mention about ~30 clam input, but I think This applies only to very long-term,
because first reward you have to wait very long-  40-50 day. (in case 10-15 input , even 3-4 month)

Any of those are fine, it doesn't really matter. The main thing is just not to have one huge output.
Damn does it really take 40-50 days for the first reward?

I think that was per-output. If you have many of these small outputs, one of them will stake sooner.

Currently you need something in the neighborhood of 1000 CLAMS to stake once per day.

Damn, looks like I'll need to do some more collecting then.

Thanks fellas!
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May 21, 2016, 04:56:17 PM
 #6757

If you have 1000 clamp would just stake them or keep them on just dice site?


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May 21, 2016, 05:10:21 PM
 #6758

If you have 1000 clamp would just stake them or keep them on just dice site?

If I had 1000 clamps, I would sell most of them, but keep a few to help me with carpentry projects.  Now, if I had 1000 CLAMS, I think what I would do with them would depend on how I got them.  Sudden gift, or recently dug: I'd probably sell half and stake half.  If I just bought them, I'd probably stake for a while and hope the price climbs a bit too.
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May 21, 2016, 08:30:43 PM
 #6759

Yes sorry clams. Auto correct. I can't run a computer 24/7 though so that's an issue


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May 22, 2016, 04:45:25 AM
 #6760

Yes sorry clams. Auto correct. I can't run a computer 24/7 though so that's an issue

An alternative option, if he is still doing it: 
User 'smooth' was staking some CLAM for users. 
 
Otherwise, it is important that you stake consistently - it is likely more efficient for you to pool your CLAM at JD. 

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=623147
Proof-Of-Chain, 100% Distributed BEFORE Launch.
Everyone who owned BTC, LTC, or DOGE at launch got free CLAMS.
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