[ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin"

[Nthused]

When he's done selling, someone else will (eventually) start. There are another 14 million or so undug CLAMs out there.

Yes of course there are. Was that information missing from the OP when you decided to support it?

No, it has always been known.

My point is that even though this particular digger claims to only have another 250k CLAMs to dump there's no reason to believe that's the end of the dumping. You took my quote out of context. I've re-added the context above.

Your context is pointless. No one would claim that selling would ever stop. Selling and buying will continue as long as the coin exists.

There is nothing happening now or in the future that wasn't reasonably foreseeable. If you don't like this coin, create a new one. It is not too late to do that.

250k Undug by 1 Individual.... Holy Cow, like seriously I was lucky enough to get 9.2 CLAM !

[jaysabi]

The developers gave a fixed amount of CLAM to every funded BTC, LTC, DOGE address thinking that that was the fairest way of doing things.

This seems like a straw man. Maybe they thought it was the "fairest" way to do things but that seems somewhat implausible. Does "fairest" even exist?

More likely they thought it was a way to distribute coins to a very wide swath of the cryptocurrency community. I doubt seriously anyone believed that some participants with very large numbers of addresses wouldn't exist, but by distributing to every non-dust address that meant that at least some meaningful number of coins was being distributed to each of a huge number of participants.

If they did believe there wouldn't be people with many addresses, well I guess you can't deny stupidity.

As far as "fairest" goes, it seems relative. What are the options when you're launching a coin, is it essentially pre-mine, pre-seed, or everyone starts with 0 and it's a race to acquire? In a landscape littered with worthless alts, that last option isn't helpful because you can't attract an audience to yet another new coin if you don't stand out, so you need something that grabs attention and widely distributes from the start. Pre-seeding seems like a logical answer because pre-mined coins always carry the stigma of being pumpers for the developers, and pre-seeding at least gives you wide distribution in a more fair fashion. Naturally, the unintended consequences of that have arisen. Whether or not they could have been foreseen isn't very important to me, unless you're making the argument that the whale digger is also a developer, and manipulated the system for his own gain. The goal was wide distribution in as fair as possible a manner to give the coin a running start, and I would say it worked because it got Doog's attention and earned a place at JD, which is the only catalyst so far to give it actual value.

When thousands of individual diggers dug and sold their coins for the free btc, it was a "good thing" because it helped distribution, in spite of the fact that unwanted coins were being thrown into the market, which would suggest to me a flaw in the distribution model. But no one was protesting that then, or worried about coin inflation or the affect on price. But now we are, and it just happens to be because it's one guy who lucked out. Again, if you're making the argument he gamed the system, that's an entirely different issue. But if you're just upset by his dumb luck, that arbitrary double standard bothers me.

When he's done selling, someone else will (eventually) start. There are another 14 million or so undug CLAMs out there.

Doesn't follow logically. Someone might start, or someone might not. It's not a given, for one, and if the potential undug CLAMs didn't bother you 2 months ago, why do they bother you now? No one cared at all about all the potential undug CLAMs until they had to acknowledge the error in their thinking that no one would ever dig those CLAMs.

[danonthehill]

The primary purpose of this thread seems to be to create unecessary fear to induce the weak to dump.

[AltcoinScamfinder]

Not exactly unbiased to claim that Clam would die if we changed the rules, coming from someone that is gaming the current system to make $100,000s..

It's pretty unbiased. Changing rules for Clam will not have any affect on me liquidating my clams. You can't make the change without a hardfork and you need at least a couple weeks (if not months) to do the hardfork. I can always accelerate my digging if that's the case. Which you can see, I'm doing right now.

Would be easy enough to request exchanges to freeze Clams, take a snapshot and simply BAN your clam address. Then hard fork it and instate digging parameters that kill future 'megadigger' attempts, or at least make them exceptionally hard.

I also find it exceptionally stupid of you to even try to argue that you are not out to put pressure on clam price, and then accelerate your digging and put up 250.000 sell order. Pretty sure by now that this was actually a well organized 'scam' where you found out about the planned Clam distribution and funded 10000s of Bitcoin addresses just to dig them. I hope Doog hard forks asap and ruins any future money making for you (not that you deserve the money you made so far either).

[cjmoles]

Why were you digging at such a slow pace as opposed to digging all the addresses at once? I suppose this was intended to hide the true number of coins you had access to?

I wasn't thinking too much about hiding the true number of coins. If I did, I would have realized to not dig them in descending block order. The reason I was digging so slowly was because that was the speed I was selling them at on Poloniex. To not risk losing the coins, I did not have a clamcoin wallet set up and I did not want to send more coins than necessary to Poloniex. So there was no need to dig them up faster. The only reason I'm digging them up faster now is to try to remove some uncertainty.

Well, I'm not mad at you.  I lost about 90% of my equity but that's just the way the market works.  I only wish you'd have tried to optimize your position a little better so the crash didn't happen so violently.  If you feel generous you can donate some back:  xPchKegaiAy2LBK3zX9bmBG8Xon2MPbfFj  It's all good though....that's capitalism!

[bhokor]

 , really i dont know which is the best way to take about this....

[AltcoinScamfinder]

Would be easy enough to request exchanges to freeze Clams, take a snapshot and simply BAN your clam address.

LOL

Well, I'm not mad at you.  I lost about 90% of my equity but that's just the way the market works.  I only wish you'd have tried to optimize your position a little better so the crash didn't happen so violently.

I could have been better at hiding how many clams I have. By accidentally revealing that info, it lead to a market panic. The amount of clams I sold pales in comparison to what everyone else dumped on the market. I'm definitely the catalyst. So sorry about that.

Seems quite unlikely that you would be smart enough to dig 10.000s of addresses and at the same time be dumb enough to by 'mistake' reveal your address and 'unknowingly' create panic. Even a complete idiot could have dug slower over a long period or time, hid the digging and made 5x the BTC. And on the flipside, if you still wanted Clam to survive you could simply either dump all you have and reset the market or sell them all OTC. Since you are not, you are still actively pushing price down, or of course you are just breathtakingly stupid.

[SuperClam]

Would be easy enough to request exchanges to freeze Clams, take a snapshot and simply BAN your clam address.

LOL

Well, I'm not mad at you.  I lost about 90% of my equity but that's just the way the market works.  I only wish you'd have tried to optimize your position a little better so the crash didn't happen so violently.

I could have been better at hiding how many clams I have. By accidentally revealing that info, it lead to a market panic. The amount of clams I sold pales in comparison to what everyone else dumped on the market. I'm definitely the catalyst. So sorry about that.

Seems quite unlikely that you would be smart enough to dig 10.000s of addresses and at the same time be dumb enough to by 'mistake' reveal your address and 'unknowingly' create panic. Even a complete idiot could have dug slower over a long period or time, hid the digging and made 5x the BTC.

The attacks aren't helpful.

Do you have a recommendation or idea for the first census/petition, that doesn't include "I'm taking my toys and going home"?

[AltcoinScamfinder]

Would be easy enough to request exchanges to freeze Clams, take a snapshot and simply BAN your clam address.

LOL

Well, I'm not mad at you.  I lost about 90% of my equity but that's just the way the market works.  I only wish you'd have tried to optimize your position a little better so the crash didn't happen so violently.

I could have been better at hiding how many clams I have. By accidentally revealing that info, it lead to a market panic. The amount of clams I sold pales in comparison to what everyone else dumped on the market. I'm definitely the catalyst. So sorry about that.

Seems quite unlikely that you would be smart enough to dig 10.000s of addresses and at the same time be dumb enough to by 'mistake' reveal your address and 'unknowingly' create panic. Even a complete idiot could have dug slower over a long period or time, hid the digging and made 5x the BTC.

The attacks aren't helpful.

Do you have a recommendation or idea for the first census/petition, that doesn't include "I'm taking my toys and going home"?

I don't see them as attacks, because I don't think he's stupid. I am just making the argument that the whole story kind of stinks. There are so much smarter ways to make a LOT of money from digging 10000s of addresses then the way that it's being done and almost none of them involves crashing price by 90%.

[SuperClam]

Would be easy enough to request exchanges to freeze Clams, take a snapshot and simply BAN your clam address.

LOL

Well, I'm not mad at you.  I lost about 90% of my equity but that's just the way the market works.  I only wish you'd have tried to optimize your position a little better so the crash didn't happen so violently.

I could have been better at hiding how many clams I have. By accidentally revealing that info, it lead to a market panic. The amount of clams I sold pales in comparison to what everyone else dumped on the market. I'm definitely the catalyst. So sorry about that.

Seems quite unlikely that you would be smart enough to dig 10.000s of addresses and at the same time be dumb enough to by 'mistake' reveal your address and 'unknowingly' create panic. Even a complete idiot could have dug slower over a long period or time, hid the digging and made 5x the BTC.

The attacks aren't helpful.
Do you have a recommendation or idea for the first census/petition, that doesn't include "I'm taking my toys and going home"?

I don't see them as attacks, because I don't think he's stupid. I am just making the argument that the whole story kind of stinks. There are so much smarter ways to make a LOT of money from digging 10000s of addresses then the way that it's being done.

I think the "help" part is arguably self-serving.

It didn't take "stupidity" to be revealed in his digging.
As I understand it, the client was set to conserve "age".
This caused the "youngest" outputs to be used first, and created the trail that was discovered.

Regardless, roasting him isn't going to help us move forward.

[SebastianJu]

Would be easy enough to request exchanges to freeze Clams, take a snapshot and simply BAN your clam address.

LOL

Well, I'm not mad at you.  I lost about 90% of my equity but that's just the way the market works.  I only wish you'd have tried to optimize your position a little better so the crash didn't happen so violently.

I could have been better at hiding how many clams I have. By accidentally revealing that info, it lead to a market panic. The amount of clams I sold pales in comparison to what everyone else dumped on the market. I'm definitely the catalyst. So sorry about that.

Seems quite unlikely that you would be smart enough to dig 10.000s of addresses and at the same time be dumb enough to by 'mistake' reveal your address and 'unknowingly' create panic. Even a complete idiot could have dug slower over a long period or time, hid the digging and made 5x the BTC.

The attacks aren't helpful.

Do you have a recommendation or idea for the first census/petition, that doesn't include "I'm taking my toys and going home"?

I don't see them as attacks, because I don't think he's stupid. I am just making the argument that the whole story kind of stinks. There are so much smarter ways to make a LOT of money from digging 10000s of addresses then the way that it's being done and almost none of them involves crashing price by 90%.

Can have many reasons. Unexperienced in trading, fear of the chance going away, being an employee that has no clue and was told by the boss to sell all these clams. And so on.

[AltcoinScamfinder]

Would be easy enough to request exchanges to freeze Clams, take a snapshot and simply BAN your clam address.

LOL

Well, I'm not mad at you.  I lost about 90% of my equity but that's just the way the market works.  I only wish you'd have tried to optimize your position a little better so the crash didn't happen so violently.

I could have been better at hiding how many clams I have. By accidentally revealing that info, it lead to a market panic. The amount of clams I sold pales in comparison to what everyone else dumped on the market. I'm definitely the catalyst. So sorry about that.

Seems quite unlikely that you would be smart enough to dig 10.000s of addresses and at the same time be dumb enough to by 'mistake' reveal your address and 'unknowingly' create panic. Even a complete idiot could have dug slower over a long period or time, hid the digging and made 5x the BTC.

The attacks aren't helpful.
Do you have a recommendation or idea for the first census/petition, that doesn't include "I'm taking my toys and going home"?

I don't see them as attacks, because I don't think he's stupid. I am just making the argument that the whole story kind of stinks. There are so much smarter ways to make a LOT of money from digging 10000s of addresses then the way that it's being done.

I think the "help" part is arguably self-serving.

It didn't take "stupidity" to be revealed in his digging.
As I understand it, the client was set to conserve "age".
This caused the "youngest" outputs to be used first, and created the trail that was discovered.

Regardless, roasting him isn't going to help us move forward.

Ah, Ok. And I guess I agree. Just figured that if you were to dig what could have been $1 million worth of CLAM's, figuring out a way of doing so without crashing market price would be a priority.

[danonthehill]

Would be easy enough to request exchanges to freeze Clams, take a snapshot and simply BAN your clam address.

LOL

Well, I'm not mad at you.  I lost about 90% of my equity but that's just the way the market works.  I only wish you'd have tried to optimize your position a little better so the crash didn't happen so violently.

I could have been better at hiding how many clams I have. By accidentally revealing that info, it lead to a market panic. The amount of clams I sold pales in comparison to what everyone else dumped on the market. I'm definitely the catalyst. So sorry about that.

Seems quite unlikely that you would be smart enough to dig 10.000s of addresses and at the same time be dumb enough to by 'mistake' reveal your address and 'unknowingly' create panic. Even a complete idiot could have dug slower over a long period or time, hid the digging and made 5x the BTC.

The attacks aren't helpful.
Do you have a recommendation or idea for the first census/petition, that doesn't include "I'm taking my toys and going home"?

I don't see them as attacks, because I don't think he's stupid. I am just making the argument that the whole story kind of stinks. There are so much smarter ways to make a LOT of money from digging 10000s of addresses then the way that it's being done.

I think the "help" part is arguably self-serving.

It didn't take "stupidity" to be revealed in his digging.
As I understand it, the client was set to conserve "age".
This caused the "youngest" outputs to be used first, and created the trail that was discovered.

Regardless, roasting him isn't going to help us move forward.

Ah, Ok. And I guess I agree. Just figured that if you were to dig what could have been $1 million worth of CLAM's, figuring out a way of doing so without crashing market price would be a priority.

Yes. Price in late August when dumps began (pre-dating any discussion here) price was 10X what it is now. Best way would have been to prop up market with BTC gains and sold slowly.

[AltcoinScamfinder]

Would be easy enough to request exchanges to freeze Clams, take a snapshot and simply BAN your clam address.

LOL

Well, I'm not mad at you.  I lost about 90% of my equity but that's just the way the market works.  I only wish you'd have tried to optimize your position a little better so the crash didn't happen so violently.

I could have been better at hiding how many clams I have. By accidentally revealing that info, it lead to a market panic. The amount of clams I sold pales in comparison to what everyone else dumped on the market. I'm definitely the catalyst. So sorry about that.

Seems quite unlikely that you would be smart enough to dig 10.000s of addresses and at the same time be dumb enough to by 'mistake' reveal your address and 'unknowingly' create panic. Even a complete idiot could have dug slower over a long period or time, hid the digging and made 5x the BTC.

The attacks aren't helpful.
Do you have a recommendation or idea for the first census/petition, that doesn't include "I'm taking my toys and going home"?

I don't see them as attacks, because I don't think he's stupid. I am just making the argument that the whole story kind of stinks. There are so much smarter ways to make a LOT of money from digging 10000s of addresses then the way that it's being done.

I think the "help" part is arguably self-serving.

It didn't take "stupidity" to be revealed in his digging.
As I understand it, the client was set to conserve "age".
This caused the "youngest" outputs to be used first, and created the trail that was discovered.

Regardless, roasting him isn't going to help us move forward.

Ah, Ok. And I guess I agree. Just figured that if you were to dig what could have been $1 million worth of CLAM's, figuring out a way of doing so without crashing market price would be a priority.

Yes. Price in late August when dumps began (pre-dating any discussion here) price was 10X what it is now. Best way would have been to prop up market with BTC gains and sold slowly.

That's my point. About 10 easy ways to maximize profits from digging without moving price at all including margin shorts and large sells, selling to a BTC heavy person with Clam interest (Just contacting Doog would prob have done it), selling small over time etc. I also don't buy that we are dealing with 'an inexperienced trader' since the person has not only the technical savvy for the digging but has been involved in crypto since at least early 2013.

[crazyivan]

Would be easy enough to request exchanges to freeze Clams, take a snapshot and simply BAN your clam address.

LOL

Well, I'm not mad at you.  I lost about 90% of my equity but that's just the way the market works.  I only wish you'd have tried to optimize your position a little better so the crash didn't happen so violently.

I could have been better at hiding how many clams I have. By accidentally revealing that info, it lead to a market panic. The amount of clams I sold pales in comparison to what everyone else dumped on the market. I'm definitely the catalyst. So sorry about that.

Seems quite unlikely that you would be smart enough to dig 10.000s of addresses and at the same time be dumb enough to by 'mistake' reveal your address and 'unknowingly' create panic. Even a complete idiot could have dug slower over a long period or time, hid the digging and made 5x the BTC.

The attacks aren't helpful.
Do you have a recommendation or idea for the first census/petition, that doesn't include "I'm taking my toys and going home"?

I don't see them as attacks, because I don't think he's stupid. I am just making the argument that the whole story kind of stinks. There are so much smarter ways to make a LOT of money from digging 10000s of addresses then the way that it's being done.

I think the "help" part is arguably self-serving.

It didn't take "stupidity" to be revealed in his digging.
As I understand it, the client was set to conserve "age".
This caused the "youngest" outputs to be used first, and created the trail that was discovered.

Regardless, roasting him isn't going to help us move forward.

Ah, Ok. And I guess I agree. Just figured that if you were to dig what could have been $1 million worth of CLAM's, figuring out a way of doing so without crashing market price would be a priority.

Yes. Price in late August when dumps began (pre-dating any discussion here) price was 10X what it is now. Best way would have been to prop up market with BTC gains and sold slowly.

YES!!! This would be prudent and sane behavior. The fact he s not doing that and continues stubbornly dumping without any plan show you he does NOT care about CLAM and his only plan is to get as many BTC as fast as possible. He s also aware of the fact the amount of CLAM he s about to insert into the market over this short period of time is going to seriously, SERIOUSLY decimate the coin, if not kill it completely. If my hypothesis is correct, pls tell me again again why wouldn't the dev team eliminate digging? Cause the way I see it, they can choose between CLAM survival and changing the code.

If I m mistaken, pls do offer some other theory why this guy keeps dumping and crashing the price down? There s more then one way to sell your CLAM.

[SuperClam]

...
He s also aware of the fact the amount of CLAM he s about to insert into the market over this short period of time is going to seriously, SERIOUSLY decimate the coin, if not kill it completely. If my hypothesis is correct, pls tell me again again why wouldn't the dev team eliminate digging? Cause the way I see it, they can choose between CLAM survival and changing the code.
...

Sorry, your contribution is appreciated, but using the word "fact" doesn't make it a "fact".
Short-term, a large influx of newly circulating CLAM can certainly have an impact on market price.

I expect the only thing that could seriously damage the mid-to-long-term health of the CLAM eco-system would be a choice by dooglus to remove CLAM as the token at the Just-Dice service.
This assumes, of course, that the code/network/consensus mechanism continues to function.

He has clearly stated that he has no intention of doing that so long as the activity on Just-Dice continues to "pay-the-bills".
This assurance was made to the community even assuming the plan to institute a census/voting mechanism to network broke down and a fork of CLAM was created for Just-Dice, whatever the name.

In short, the sky is not "falling", just yet.

CLAM has a unique distribution method, and the unique challenges that come along with that distribution method.
Other methods also have challenges, such as the problem of pre-mine, insta-mine and/or pre-sale in proof-of-work networks.
These are real challenges: but, the community is best served by gathering data and exhausting possibilities before making such fundamental changes.


The decision has been made to allow the network itself to decide it's own fate, via petitions/census/voting.
This is the chosen path for the reference version of the CLAMclient.
It is believed that this path will improve the CLAM community and put us in a better position to handle disagreements and decisions about development in the future.

It is a first step in the process of allowing the network to help guide where development resources are targeted.

The first petition, on this issue, will be coming quite quickly; likely beginning just after this weekend.
In-depth details of the methodology of the petition process will be announced with the first petition.


If you feel this way: your time is best spent evangelizing to the community about why they should choose/vote for a change you agree with the most.
You are not alone; however, neither are you surrounded with agreement.

[crazyivan]

...
He s also aware of the fact the amount of CLAM he s about to insert into the market over this short period of time is going to seriously, SERIOUSLY decimate the coin, if not kill it completely. If my hypothesis is correct, pls tell me again again why wouldn't the dev team eliminate digging? Cause the way I see it, they can choose between CLAM survival and changing the code.
...

Sorry, your contribution is appreciated, but using the word "fact" doesn't make it a "fact".
Short-term, a large influx of newly circulating CLAM can certainly have an impact on market price.

I expect the only thing that could seriously damage the mid-to-long-term health of the CLAM eco-system would be a choice by dooglus to remove CLAM as the token at the Just-Dice service.
This assumes, of course, that the code/network/consensus mechanism continues to function.

He has clearly stated that he has no intention of doing that so long as the activity on Just-Dice continues to "pay-the-bills".
This assurance was made to the community even assuming the plan to institute a census/voting mechanism to network broke down and a fork of CLAM was created for Just-Dice, whatever the name.

In short, the sky is not "falling", just yet.

CLAM has a unique distribution method, and the unique challenges that come along with that distribution method.
Other methods also have challenges, such as the problem of pre-mine, insta-mine and/or pre-sale in proof-of-work networks.
These are real challenges: but, the community is best served by gathering data and exhausting possibilities before making such fundamental changes.


The decision has been made to allow the network itself to decide it's own fate, via petitions/census/voting.
This is the chosen path for the reference version of the CLAMclient.
It is believed that this path will improve the CLAM community and put us in a better position to handle disagreements and decisions about development in the future.

It is a first step in the process of allowing the network to help guide where development resources are targeted.

The first petition, on this issue, will be coming quite quickly; likely beginning just after this weekend.
In-depth details of the methodology of the petition process will be announced with the first petition.


If you feel this way: your time is best spent evangelizing to the community about why they should choose/vote for a change you agree with the most.
You are not alone; however, neither are you surrounded with agreement.

Voting, YES! There we completely agree. I do not want to impose my opinion on this community, neither I can do that. But it is a fact that CLAM lost 3/4 of its value over a period of 3 months. It s also a fact this coincides with the period the digger has emerged. It is also a fact there are other PoS coins which do not have this kind of issue. The easiest thing would be to say, OK, if you think other coins are better, go there. No! Even without having any serious financial involvement into CLAM, I still think this coin is one of the best PoS coins there, largely due to Price Dice support. I would not like it to go down due to benefits of one single individual, the digger. Let us see how this voting process is going to look like.

[SuperClam]

Voting, YES! There we completely agree. I do not want to impose my opinion on this community, neither I can do that. But it is a fact that CLAM lost 3/4 of its value over a period of 3 months. It s also a fact this coincides with the period the digger has emerged. It is also a fact there are other PoS coins which do not have this kind of issue. The easiest thing would be to say, OK, if you think other coins are better, go there. No! Even without having any serious financial involvement into CLAM, I still think this coin is one of the best PoS coins there, largely due to Price Dice support. I would not like it to go down due to benefits of one single individual, the digger. Let us see how this voting process is going to look like.

Price has went down.
Value and price are two very different things.

This is especially true when a market is young/shallow and clearly not stable/efficient.
It could be argued that given an efficient and stable market without any externalities the market price IS an assessment of value.
The margin of error, given how shallow the CLAM market is, would make any assessment at the moment very difficult.

That leaves us with fundamentals.
I am not convinced the fundamentals, and thus "value", have changed much.
The velocity of the recent digging certainly changes estimates quite a bit.
But, estimates were subjective from the beginning.

Regardless, we will know much more about how the stakeholders feel after the petition process has commenced.

[Hippie Tech]

Why haven't I ever heard about this ?

http://www.coindesk.com/poloniex-loses-12-3-bitcoins-latest-bitcoin-exchange-hack/

The hacker discovered that if you place several withdrawals all in practically the same instant, they will get processed at more or less the same time. This will result in a negative balance, but valid insertions into the database, which then get picked up by the withdrawal daemon. ~ D'Agosta

If I did not make this adjustment, people would most likely withdraw all their BTC as soon as possible in order to make sure they weren't left in that remaining 12.3%.

Does anyone else notice the same "oh noes how did that happen ??!! I'm a stupid noob and/or I got hacked" narrative ?

[SuperClam]

Why haven't I ever heard about this ?
http://www.coindesk.com/poloniex-loses-12-3-bitcoins-latest-bitcoin-exchange-hack/

The hacker discovered that if you place several withdrawals all in practically the same instant, they will get processed at more or less the same time. This will result in a negative balance, but valid insertions into the database, which then get picked up by the withdrawal daemon. ~ D'Agosta

If I did not make this adjustment, people would most likely withdraw all their BTC as soon as possible in order to make sure they weren't left in that remaining 12.3%.

Does anyone else notice the same "oh noes how did that happen ??!! I'm a stupid noob and/or I got hacked" narrative ?

If I am not mistaken, Poloniex quite swiftly paid back the "12.3%" via exchange fees.
Don't quote me though, as I am not positive.
Remember hearing about it ages ago.

Let's try to stay on topic.