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Author Topic: [ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin"  (Read 1150784 times)
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October 18, 2015, 01:07:47 AM
 #4401

I estimated he was 36% done.  So maybe another 4 months of dumping.    

The digging could be done next week if there was a Bid that could support it.  I'm sure the digger is more scared of us, than we are of them.  They just want to get their BTC and bounce.

People need to put up or shut up.  Money talks and bullshit walks.

I've thought further about the conversation in the Just-Dice room last evening and I've been trying to imagine it as if it was Satoshi selling his BTC.

I'm sure some people would want to cut Satoshi off or impose addition "age" fees on the transactions.  I don't like it!  Let the digger dig!

 

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October 18, 2015, 05:39:33 AM
 #4402

The digging could be done next week if there was a Bid that could support it.  I'm sure the digger is more scared of us, than we are of them.  They just want to get their BTC and bounce.

Just a couple of weeks ago there was more than 100 BTC of buy orders at or above the current price. It didn't tempt the digger then. Why do you think it would now?

I've thought further about the conversation in the Just-Dice room last evening and I've been trying to imagine it as if it was Satoshi selling his BTC.

I'm sure some people would want to cut Satoshi off or impose addition "age" fees on the transactions.  I don't like it!  Let the digger dig!

Maybe it would be a good idea to try having the discussion here too.

I think I started it by saying that CLAM isn't very useful as a currency right now, because we have a huge amount of digging going on, which puts a constant downward pressure on the price, and results in CLAM being a bad investment. Then I asked if people agreed (almost all did) and asked for suggestions as to what if anything we could or should do about it.

I understand Bay's point of view. He has a financial interest in digging continuing as it currently is. But what does anyone else think?

Some suggestions that came up last night:

(this isn't a quote of anything, but I don't know how to make a block of text without saying 'quote')

Quote
a) CreativeCuriosity has for a while now had an idea of changing the fee structure for CLAM. It's quite wide-ranging, and aims to stop us ever having to go through the whole "large block" debate that is currently dividing the Bitcoin community. Her plan is to have the block size limit and transaction fees adjust based on historical block sizes such that the market finds its own level. As a part of this the transaction fee would depend on the amount of this an output spent on the blockchain before it could be pruned, since it costs everyone more to store an output for 5 years and to store it for 5 minutes.

While interesting, I don't think this really addresses the problems caused by the ongoing digging activity.

b) Some kind of a hard fork could reduce the value of un-dug CLAMs over time in some way or another.

The reduction could range from a total end to digging (which some argue removes one of the unique selling points of the coin) to such a small reduction that it would have no effect. The hard fork would need to be planned and announced in advance to give people a chance to update their client software, and so the digger would simply dig all his coins before the fork happened, unless he really isn't paying attention.

c) CC seems to be of the opinion that we can just ride this out, and everything will be fine. Since the price of CLAM is down, the digger will for some reason start selling much faster and run out of his stash within a month or two.

I think the reasoning is that he wants a certain number of BTC per day from his dumping, and so that requires ever increasing numbers of CLAM per day - but the dig chart doesn't support that idea. His rate of digging over time seems pretty constant despite the big price drop.

d) Just-Dice should stop using CLAM and use something else instead, with a predictable supply going forward. It could be a fork of CLAM, so everyone keeps their current balance, but on a separate chain.

This seems much like (b), but presumably without the blessing of the CLAM devs. Such a contentious hard fork isn't good for anyone.

Personally I have no idea what's best. I just know that the current situation is making a lot of people unhappy.

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October 18, 2015, 06:19:50 AM
 #4403

Just a couple of weeks ago there was more than 100 BTC of buy orders at or above the current price. It didn't tempt the digger then. Why do you think it would now?

I think the "tone" of the market has changed since a few weeks ago.  Surely the digger will feel that and will feel the fact that more and more pressure is being added to the market encouraging others to dig their CLAMs.

The way I see it the digger basically "set the hook" on investors.  When a fish first bites your bait... you let it set in for a second so you really have them on the hook.

"Well I already have $2000 into CLAM that I don't want to use... so I'll spend another $1000 to try to support it."  

Personally I have no idea what's best. I just know that the current situation is making a lot of people unhappy.

I think the fact that people are unhappy will encourage the digger to take the potential profits faster now than any time before.

If I'm correct this will bring:

A:  Confidence to the markets.

B:  Encourage the digger speed up this bleeding process so that they don't lose "free" BTC to other new diggers.

I just think it is a win win over all.

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October 18, 2015, 06:25:46 AM
 #4404


   Calling this an investment is the mistake.  This is Free money.  He didn't spend any of his own money to get it.  A lot of folks that claim their clams are not CLAMS investors, they claim and then sell them.  

I estimated he was 36% done.  So maybe another 4 months of dumping.    

True enough if you want to maximize your free money you tend to try and make the most out of it though. 
Either way an accelerated dump to remove his position or investment into using it would do wonders.

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October 18, 2015, 06:28:58 AM
 #4405

The digging could be done next week if there was a Bid that could support it.  I'm sure the digger is more scared of us, than we are of them.  They just want to get their BTC and bounce.

Just a couple of weeks ago there was more than 100 BTC of buy orders at or above the current price. It didn't tempt the digger then. Why do you think it would now?

I've thought further about the conversation in the Just-Dice room last evening and I've been trying to imagine it as if it was Satoshi selling his BTC.

I'm sure some people would want to cut Satoshi off or impose addition "age" fees on the transactions.  I don't like it!  Let the digger dig!

Maybe it would be a good idea to try having the discussion here too.

I think I started it by saying that CLAM isn't very useful as a currency right now, because we have a huge amount of digging going on, which puts a constant downward pressure on the price, and results in CLAM being a bad investment. Then I asked if people agreed (almost all did) and asked for suggestions as to what if anything we could or should do about it.

I understand Bay's point of view. He has a financial interest in digging continuing as it currently is. But what does anyone else think?

Some suggestions that came up last night:

(this isn't a quote of anything, but I don't know how to make a block of text without saying 'quote')

Quote
a) CreativeCuriosity has for a while now had an idea of changing the fee structure for CLAM. It's quite wide-ranging, and aims to stop us ever having to go through the whole "large block" debate that is currently dividing the Bitcoin community. Her plan is to have the block size limit and transaction fees adjust based on historical block sizes such that the market finds its own level. As a part of this the transaction fee would depend on the amount of this an output spent on the blockchain before it could be pruned, since it costs everyone more to store an output for 5 years and to store it for 5 minutes.

While interesting, I don't think this really addresses the problems caused by the ongoing digging activity.

b) Some kind of a hard fork could reduce the value of un-dug CLAMs over time in some way or another.

The reduction could range from a total end to digging (which some argue removes one of the unique selling points of the coin) to such a small reduction that it would have no effect. The hard fork would need to be planned and announced in advance to give people a chance to update their client software, and so the digger would simply dig all his coins before the fork happened, unless he really isn't paying attention.

c) CC seems to be of the opinion that we can just ride this out, and everything will be fine. Since the price of CLAM is down, the digger will for some reason start selling much faster and run out of his stash within a month or two.

I think the reasoning is that he wants a certain number of BTC per day from his dumping, and so that requires ever increasing numbers of CLAM per day - but the dig chart doesn't support that idea. His rate of digging over time seems pretty constant despite the big price drop.

d) Just-Dice should stop using CLAM and use something else instead, with a predictable supply going forward. It could be a fork of CLAM, so everyone keeps their current balance, but on a separate chain.

This seems much like (b), but presumably without the blessing of the CLAM devs. Such a contentious hard fork isn't good for anyone.

Personally I have no idea what's best. I just know that the current situation is making a lot of people unhappy.

I think option b) would be preferable solution. I understand the current system was set up as the most effective and easiest way to distribute CLAM among crypto community. However, we have come to a point where we have to ask our self "is that it"? What are we going to do from this point forward? Cause if CLAM s all about digging and distributing CLAM to people who dump it immediately as they get it, then this coins s got no future. I read opinions saying, only 6 more months until he finishes digging, unless he s got another wallet. Only 1 year until he stops dumping and so.

Consider the current situation. If the whale or some other whale continue employing this tactics and keep dumping day after day for 1 year, bringing the price down on a daily basis. How many of us s gonna be around if this continues? What s CLAM reputation going to look like in a year if this continues? Would you really be ready to see CLAM price go down to peanuts due to 1 year of digging? Who would buy it at that point knowing this might continue at any point?

All in all, the idea to distribute CLAM this was s been great. However, it s time to steer this ship in a different direction. Please do not make this about my personal loss/gain. Just ask yourself, if you knew he s gonna continue dumping for a year, which is possible, would you buy a single CLAM in the meantime? If the answer s no, how do you expect CLAM to survive and develop. Nah, something should be done.  

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October 18, 2015, 07:07:16 AM
 #4406

Why not create a distribution to clam holders/supporters before the digger started and call it Pearl or something more clever

The new coin could be an experiment that exists with Clam and will allow people to have a choice

I am thinking similar property's with clam and just a smaller distribution

If the dice sites supported the new coin, that would be awesome as well.

You know where the CLAMs were before the digger started? There were almost all in the JD staking wallet.

Using a snapshot of the blockchain from that point in time would give almost all the coins to me...

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October 18, 2015, 07:27:13 AM
 #4407

I really think that nothing should be done.  The number of diggable clams was well considered (I assume) before the initial distribution snapshot was taken and the fact that Clam achieved enough value to attract a while digger to find his/her share is part of the ground rules as they were laid out.  I really don't like the idea that people would say beforehand "We've distributed n clams to these addresses" and then try to renege on that when someone comes along to claim them.
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October 18, 2015, 08:07:42 AM
 #4408

I really think that nothing should be done.  The number of diggable clams was well considered (I assume) before the initial distribution snapshot was taken and the fact that Clam achieved enough value to attract a while digger to find his/her share is part of the ground rules as they were laid out.  I really don't like the idea that people would say beforehand "We've distributed n clams to these addresses" and then try to renege on that when someone comes along to claim them.

Well, in that case good luck watching CLAM go down for the next year or two years. I m sure there ll be a lot of holders after that. Cause if CLAM is all about one or two diggers, then so be it. After all, this is a free market, so easy to get out.

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October 18, 2015, 08:12:49 AM
 #4409

I also think it's better not to change things, but just to wait out the current digger. It looks like it will be a matter of months, not years, at the current rate. Of course, I sympathize with the big holders, especially dooglus. It's a tough situation, but a temporary one.

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October 18, 2015, 08:25:51 AM
 #4410

I also think it's better not to change things, but just to wait out the current digger. It looks like it will be a matter of months, not years, at the current rate. Of course, I sympathize with the big holders, especially dooglus. It's a tough situation, but a temporary one.

Ask yourself, what the chance there is only 1 big digger?

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October 18, 2015, 08:54:21 AM
Last edit: October 18, 2015, 09:27:37 AM by SuperClam
 #4411



Before We Begin

Why not create a distribution to clam holders/supporters before the digger started and call it Pearl or something more clever
The new coin could be an experiment that exists with Clam and will allow people to have a choice
I am thinking similar property's with clam and just a smaller distribution
If the dice sites supported the new coin, that would be awesome as well.

Unless I have missed an important memo, it is quite agreed upon that any changes will need to meet a preponderance of wet-ware consensus.

The CLAM network belongs to the community; thus, we will attempt to shepherd CLAM, in all situations, toward the consensus of the community it serves.

The last I checked, dooglus, xploited and I were in agreement on this concept.


Conversations about other networks/coins are off topic for this thread; sorry.

If you were interested in creating your own network - please feel free to stop in to #clams on freenode IRC.
We would be happy to help you along when you run into problems in implementation.



Maybe it would be a good idea to try having the discussion here too.
...
Some suggestions that came up last night:
Quote
a) CreativeCuriosity has for a while now had an idea of changing the fee structure for CLAM. It's quite wide-ranging, and aims to stop us ever having to go through the whole "large block" debate that is currently dividing the Bitcoin community. Her plan is to have the block size limit and transaction fees adjust based on historical block sizes such that the market finds its own level. As a part of this the transaction fee would depend on the amount of this an output spent on the blockchain before it could be pruned, since it costs everyone more to store an output for 5 years and to store it for 5 minutes.
While interesting, I don't think this really addresses the problems caused by the ongoing digging activity.

b) Some kind of a hard fork could reduce the value of un-dug CLAMs over time in some way or another.
The reduction could range from a total end to digging (which some argue removes one of the unique selling points of the coin) to such a small reduction that it would have no effect. The hard fork would need to be planned and announced in advance to give people a chance to update their client software, and so the digger would simply dig all his coins before the fork happened, unless he really isn't paying attention.

c) CC seems to be of the opinion that we can just ride this out, and everything will be fine. Since the price of CLAM is down, the digger will for some reason start selling much faster and run out of his stash within a month or two.
I think the reasoning is that he wants a certain number of BTC per day from his dumping, and so that requires ever increasing numbers of CLAM per day - but the dig chart doesn't support that idea. His rate of digging over time seems pretty constant despite the big price drop.

d) Just-Dice should stop using CLAM and use something else instead, with a predictable supply going forward. It could be a fork of CLAM, so everyone keeps their current balance, but on a separate chain.
This seems much like (b), but presumably without the blessing of the CLAM devs. Such a contentious hard fork isn't good for anyone.

Personally I have no idea what's best. I just know that the current situation is making a lot of people unhappy.



War or Pacifism

We are sitting at a crossroads.  Either the chain, and original promises of the network are sacred; or they are not.  But, even beyond this, the situation is nuanced.  

If we do nothing, the price will almost certainly go lower.  At a lower price, less demand(BTC) will be required to absorb the supply(dumps).  This means that eventually there will be a balance/equilibrium.  It is possible that the price falls and at this lower price demand is capable of completely liquidating the digger's CLAM.  At that point, if the digger is paying attention, they could choose to liquidate much more quickly than the present rate.  It is important to note, as dooglus mentioned, that this would be a change in pattern from the methodology the digger is currently using to dump - possibly making it unlikely.  This maintains the initial "promises" and sanctity of the chain, distribution and network.  It also, however, requires what could be a long drawn out period during which supply increases via the digger's dumping.  This will almost certainly, inevitably result in a decrease in price/value.

Alternatively, we could choose to quickly act to change the rules of the network. The new rules would dis-allow the transfer of CLAM from the initial distribution blocks.  This would prevent additional "claims" from the time the fork is successfully implemented.  There is a great deal of long and short term risk associated with this decision.  In the short-term, the digger could choose to dig the CLAM immediately.  This, on it's face, is not a bad outcome.  At worst, in the short-term, it results in the digger moving and holding/staking his CLAM, moving and dumping his CLAM.  At "best", in the short-term, the digger does not notice the change and subsequently loses their CLAM.  The long-term implications are more worrisome.  Future investment requires some modicum of "trust".  One of the enduring and utility providing aspects of a p2p value network such as CLAM is the distinct and protected lack of blacklists.  A primary attribute of any value system is what is often called "fungibility".  If a network project such as CLAM is willing to protect one class of user over another via removing CLAM from the network..... that is a very troubling precedent for future users who may be considering storing value in the network.



Diplomacy

There is another option.
This idea came about long before the digger arrived on the CLAM network and was not actually designed or intended to prevent claiming at all.
It does, however, have some impact on future claims.

It can be implemented with various levels of complication and reach; from the extremely simple to all encompassing.
We will talk about a more simple implementation at the moment (which doesn't include block size at all).
I've chosen to go this route as the more complicated versions will only confuse what is already a rather complicated change.
Further, the additional complication concerns fee markets, bloat, DDoS and a variety of other issues which are not currently being discussed.



The concept is deceptively simple: When markets operate efficiently they find their own balance/equilibrium.

In Economics, there is the concept of what is called an "externality".
The basic implication is that a market can't operate efficiently when there are costs or benefits which are related to, but not reflected in the market.
For instance: Air pollution causes a cost on society.  Air pollution clean-up should be paid for by those who create it.  When it is not, the cost of creating air pollution is arbitrarily held down and the market demand for air pollution creating devices is arbitrarily higher than it should be if it accurately reflected it's "true" cost.  Everything we do/create has costs and benefits.  When all of those costs and benefits are illustrated in price/value of those actions; the market will, theoretically, provide exactly the appropriate level of supply/demand.

The above is a long-winded explanation; but, it is important that we have a foundation of exactly how important externalities are to an efficient market.



The problem: The costs and benefits of users utilizing the CLAM network are not properly reflected in the protocol.

When a user makes a transaction on the CLAM network, that transaction must be stored and kept by every node in the CLAM network for what could potentially be forever.
Transaction fees are currently based on the size of the transaction.  This is measured in terms of data storage and enumerated in bytes.  It is a per-byte fee.

If all transactions existed on the CLAM network/chain for an equal amount of time - this concept would make perfect sense.  They do not.
In actuality, assuming equal byte-size, a person holding 1 CLAM for 1 day on the CLAM network pays the same fee for that storage as a person holding 1 CLAM for 1 million days.
Time is not considered at all; despite the fact that time is clearly part of the cost equation.
Yet, currently, the one day user pays the same rate as the one million day user.
This discrepancy in time is an externality; an unpaid for benefit enjoyed by the one million day user at the expense of the network.



The solution: Ensure that costs and benefits of users utilizing the CLAM network are properly reflected in the protocol.

We introduce the element of time into the required fee to transact on the CLAM network.
It is a per-byte-per-block fee.

In this way, the externality/discrepancy of time is reflected in the cost of using the network.
The network/stakers are, essentially, adding the variable of time into the equation of what to charge users for using the network.
This includes those users who have not claimed distribution CLAM yet - they are being charged for storing their CLAM on the network, just as every other user.

The incentives make more sense(staking/security is incentivized, bloat is dis-incentivized) and cost is more properly, though not perfectly, reflected.
The network/stakers gain an additional source of income, for some time to come, due to the linear rise in cost associated with claiming old/distribution CLAM.

This change is fair and makes free/efficient market sense - regardless of the distribution method that CLAM utilized.
It is not specifically designed to harm claimers, and does not choose or target specific groups of CLAM users.
It does not destroy fungibility.

Assuming a fee market and a competing restriction of space due to a dynamic block size, our DDoS and bloat protections increase.



This change would also require the addition of other positive features:
* Efficient rebroadcasting of transactions via something similar to RBF(Replace-by-fee) or CPP/CPFP(Child-pays-for-parent).
* Fee pooling/smoothing to prevent the incentive to avoid fees via self-staking.
* Sensible wallet logic to make the change seamless to users.
* Likely, a handful of other changes as well.



Regardless of the decisions we make as a community - let us make them together, and CLAM will remain strong.

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October 18, 2015, 09:31:14 AM
 #4412

Could you elaborate a bit more on this solution? How would this be exactly achieved?

Cause let us be clear, he s not going to stop. Since he s at under 30% now, he s got a lot of CLAM to sell. Knowing this, it s futile setting a single buy order when you know tomorrow the price ll be even lower. So, I personally expect 10-20% price drop per day over the next few months. I fully understand it would be extremely unfair to change to rules now when people ve been promised something, free dig and free coins.

HOWEVER, if this promise threatens to destroy the entire CLAM network, which it does, then I feel any and all changes to prevent this not only justified but also necessary.

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October 18, 2015, 09:31:54 AM
 #4413



Before We Begin

Why not create a distribution to clam holders/supporters before the digger started and call it Pearl or something more clever
The new coin could be an experiment that exists with Clam and will allow people to have a choice
I am thinking similar property's with clam and just a smaller distribution
If the dice sites supported the new coin, that would be awesome as well.

Unless I have missed an important memo, it is quite agreed upon that any changes will need to meet a preponderance of wet-ware consensus.

The CLAM network belongs to the community; thus, we will attempt to shepherd CLAM, in all situations, toward the consensus of the community it serves.

The last I checked, dooglus, xploited and I were in agreement on this concept.


Conversations about other networks/coins are off topic for this thread; sorry.

If you were interested in creating your own network - please feel free to stop in to #clams on freenode IRC.
We would be happy to help you along when you run into problems in implementation.



Perfect I just might take you up on that offer --- Thanks
I deleted my "off topic comments" and will refrain from posting here again
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October 18, 2015, 09:42:12 AM
 #4414


Before We Begin
Why not create a distribution to clam holders/supporters before the digger started and call it Pearl or something more clever
The new coin could be an experiment that exists with Clam and will allow people to have a choice
I am thinking similar property's with clam and just a smaller distribution
If the dice sites supported the new coin, that would be awesome as well.
Unless I have missed an important memo, it is quite agreed upon that any changes will need to meet a preponderance of wet-ware consensus.
The CLAM network belongs to the community; thus, we will attempt to shepherd CLAM, in all situations, toward the consensus of the community it serves.
The last I checked, dooglus, xploited and I were in agreement on this concept.
Conversations about other networks/coins are off topic for this thread; sorry.
If you were interested in creating your own network - please feel free to stop in to #clams on freenode IRC.
We would be happy to help you along when you run into problems in implementation.

Perfect I just might take you up on that offer --- Thanks
I deleted my "off topic comments" and will refrain from posting here again

No need to thank, and certainly no need to refrain from posting.
You have contributed here in the thread multiple times over a long period of time.

There was no intent to offend and the comment wasn't deleted for good reason.

It is a valid opinion, as most are, which is why it wasn't deleted; I just want to keep this thread focused on coming to consensus for CLAM itself.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=623147
Proof-Of-Chain, 100% Distributed BEFORE Launch.
Everyone who owned BTC, LTC, or DOGE at launch got free CLAMS.
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October 18, 2015, 09:46:20 AM
 #4415

Could you elaborate a bit more on this solution? How would this be exactly achieved?

Cause let us be clear, he s not going to stop. Since he s at under 30% now, he s got a lot of CLAM to sell. Knowing this, it s futile setting a single buy order when you know tomorrow the price ll be even lower. So, I personally expect 10-20% price drop per day over the next few months. I fully understand it would be extremely unfair to change to rules now when people ve been promised something, free dig and free coins.

HOWEVER, if this promise threatens to destroy the entire CLAM network, which it does, then I feel any and all changes to prevent this not only justified but also necessary.

The "nuclear" option has not been ruled out - I have simply offered an alternative (which I think should be implemented regardless of any other changes that are made).



I will be sleeping soon, but if you could be more specific on what you would like elaborated: I would be glad to try my best.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=623147
Proof-Of-Chain, 100% Distributed BEFORE Launch.
Everyone who owned BTC, LTC, or DOGE at launch got free CLAMS.
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October 18, 2015, 09:51:00 AM
 #4416

HOWEVER, if this promise threatens to destroy the entire CLAM network, which it does, then I feel any and all changes to prevent this not only justified but also necessary.

Why?

Perhaps it is better to just move on. You know, like a bad relationship.

If you think CLAMs is mortally wounded by this digger (and potentially others like it) then just LET IT DIE.

Have you read Antifragility? Failure of components is absolutely essential to a larger healthy system. Trying to bail out bad ideas with any sort of desperate measures is not helpful, it is harmful. Let the experiment run its course and learn from it.

There are thousands of coins, hundreds of them are somewhat active. I think there are good things about CLAM and I've said so, but if it dies because the distribution turns out to have been fatally bad, then life will go on and, then we all learned something valuable from it. The knowledge of which ideas seemed to be good and which bad will live on.

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October 18, 2015, 10:07:22 AM
 #4417

HOWEVER, if this promise threatens to destroy the entire CLAM network, which it does, then I feel any and all changes to prevent this not only justified but also necessary.

Why?

Perhaps it is better to just move on. You know, like a bad relationship.

If you think CLAMs is mortally wounded by this digger (and potentially others like it) then just LET IT DIE.

Have you read Antifragility? Failure of components is absolutely essential to a larger healthy system. Trying to bail out bad ideas with any sort of desperate measures is not helpful, it is harmful. Let the experiment run its course and learn from it.

There are thousands of coins, hundreds of them are somewhat active. I think there are good things about CLAM and I've said so, but if it dies because the distribution turns out to have been fatally bad, then life will go on and, then we all learned something valuable from it. The knowledge of which ideas seemed to be good and which bad will live on.



Well, this is an option, for sure.

However, CLAM s been one of my 3 favorite PoS coins and I would not like to see it die, especially not cause the whole point of CLAM dying s to let 1 single guy fill up his pockets. If we let do that, what does it say about us, the community? What does it say about CLAM devs? My entire life I have followed a simple logic, if something s broken, let s try to fix it. If not, don't fix it.

If I am the only one from the entire community being upset about this development, I wont mention it anymore. I don't want to be the only one who s been rocking the boat. As I say, I ll survive my personal loss but I would rather not to reduce the list of favorite PoS coins from 3 to 2.

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October 18, 2015, 10:20:26 AM
 #4418

Even if it may change the original hopes of how CLAMS would be distributed :

The best course of action that would most likely appeal to the majority of investors, traders, users, and anyone that ever holds CLAM for any reason is to slow the emission of new coins to the point where it can support the network but end the fear of massive and unpredictable increases in supply.

How it's done is up to the community of course.

You will probably find those focused on digging will be against it and those who primarily hold or use the coin for any reason will be for it.
Just remember that all these coins are experiments that are powered by real money. So it's best to consider protecting the value of any coin as probably one of the highest orders of all.

Don't be afraid to change.
Investors will reward the right decision.
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October 18, 2015, 10:23:43 AM
 #4419

HOWEVER, if this promise threatens to destroy the entire CLAM network, which it does, then I feel any and all changes to prevent this not only justified but also necessary.
Why?
Perhaps it is better to just move on. You know, like a bad relationship.
If you think CLAMs is mortally wounded by this digger (and potentially others like it) then just LET IT DIE.
Have you read Antifragility? Failure of components is absolutely essential to a larger healthy system. Trying to bail out bad ideas with any sort of desperate measures is not helpful, it is harmful. Let the experiment run its course and learn from it.
There are thousands of coins, hundreds of them are somewhat active. I think there are good things about CLAM and I've said so, but if it dies because the distribution turns out to have been fatally bad, then life will go on and, then we all learned something valuable from it. The knowledge of which ideas seemed to be good and which bad will live on.
Well, this is an option, for sure.
However, CLAM s been one of my 3 favorite PoS coins and I would not like to see it die, especially not cause the whole point of CLAM dying s to let 1 single guy fill up his pockets. If we let do that, what does it say about us, the community? What does it say about CLAM devs? My entire life I have followed a simple logic, if something s broken, let s try to fix it. If not, don't fix it.
If I am the only one from the entire community being upset about this development, I wont mention it anymore. I don't want to be the only one who s been rocking the boat. As I say, I ll survive my personal loss but I would rather not to reduce the list of favorite PoS coins from 3 to 2.

I do not, personally, believe this is an existential issue.
The process of re-adjustment during this period of increased supply will be painful - however.

I do not believe CLAM is nearly as fragile as some have claimed during this issue.
That said, again, this is painful.

In the end, the only way that CLAM "dies" is if every single user stops using it.
Possible? Yes.
Likely? I don't believe so.

The question is:
Can we get some common sense changes implemented without sacrificing our ideals?
How strong is the community and how well does it survive this temporary haircut?

In the end, preserving ideals and the promises of the network while simultaneously supporting users is a problem of creativity and labor.
Problems of creativity and labor are solvable.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=623147
Proof-Of-Chain, 100% Distributed BEFORE Launch.
Everyone who owned BTC, LTC, or DOGE at launch got free CLAMS.
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October 18, 2015, 10:56:43 AM
 #4420

HOWEVER, if this promise threatens to destroy the entire CLAM network, which it does, then I feel any and all changes to prevent this not only justified but also necessary.
Why?
Perhaps it is better to just move on. You know, like a bad relationship.
If you think CLAMs is mortally wounded by this digger (and potentially others like it) then just LET IT DIE.
Have you read Antifragility? Failure of components is absolutely essential to a larger healthy system. Trying to bail out bad ideas with any sort of desperate measures is not helpful, it is harmful. Let the experiment run its course and learn from it.
There are thousands of coins, hundreds of them are somewhat active. I think there are good things about CLAM and I've said so, but if it dies because the distribution turns out to have been fatally bad, then life will go on and, then we all learned something valuable from it. The knowledge of which ideas seemed to be good and which bad will live on.
Well, this is an option, for sure.
However, CLAM s been one of my 3 favorite PoS coins and I would not like to see it die, especially not cause the whole point of CLAM dying s to let 1 single guy fill up his pockets. If we let do that, what does it say about us, the community? What does it say about CLAM devs? My entire life I have followed a simple logic, if something s broken, let s try to fix it. If not, don't fix it.
If I am the only one from the entire community being upset about this development, I wont mention it anymore. I don't want to be the only one who s been rocking the boat. As I say, I ll survive my personal loss but I would rather not to reduce the list of favorite PoS coins from 3 to 2.

I do not, personally, believe this is an existential issue.
The process of re-adjustment during this period of increased supply will be painful - however.

I do not believe CLAM is nearly as fragile as some have claimed during this issue.
That said, again, this is painful.

In the end, the only way that CLAM "dies" is if every single user stops using it.
Possible? Yes.
Likely? I don't believe so.

The question is:
Can we get some common sense changes implemented without sacrificing our ideals?
How strong is the community and how well does it survive this temporary haircut?

In the end, preserving ideals and the promises of the network while simultaneously supporting users is a problem of creativity and labor.
Problems of creativity and labor are solvable.

Let me get back to my initial premise. We KNOW he s not going to stop dumping for at least next 2-4 months, based on his previous behavior. Knowing that, why would I or you or anyone else buy a single CLAM until we re 100% sure he and others like him are done? There s no point buying if you know bottom s not even close.

If you think CLAM can survive these 2-4 months, suffering this 10% per day price drops, OK, you know much more about CLAM mechanics then I do and I ll accept that. However, based on my previous experience, I have not been able to find a single coin which was dumped from high price to extremely low price and then recovered. Once the community loses hope and leaves, they do not come back. Look at Paycoin. The price was $15, pumped and pumped, the community was huge, then they lost trust into the coin, due to that scammer but they lost trust. Now, under new and honest management, the price is 2 cents. People simply do not come back.

I m just afraid CLAM might suffer similar faith. On the other hand, I m certainly not going to argue about it, being a relatively new CLAM community member and I ll leave ti to more experienced ones. I m out.

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