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Author Topic: NEM (XEM) Official Thread - 100% New Code - Easy To Use APIs  (Read 2984384 times)
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patmast3r
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March 07, 2015, 07:20:36 AM
 #12561

I think the complete details about PoI will, for obvious reasons, only be revealed after launch.

What is this obvious reason that outweighs security problems that will arise if the algo is flawed?

Most obvious reason is it ain't done yet. Makoto analysed both the NXT and BTC blockchain to see how POI would behave if our network was to show similar activity. Now he and bloody are changing some parameters for POI.

Makoto is working on a POI writeup (not a proper whitepaper yet afaik) but has been too busy with regular work lately. Now he seems to be sick too so I'm not sure when this will be done.

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March 07, 2015, 08:19:20 AM
 #12562

I think the complete details about PoI will, for obvious reasons, only be revealed after launch.

What is this obvious reason that outweighs security problems that will arise if the algo is flawed?

Most obvious reason is it ain't done yet. Makoto analysed both the NXT and BTC blockchain to see how POI would behave if our network was to show similar activity. Now he and bloody are changing some parameters for POI.

Makoto is working on a POI writeup (not a proper whitepaper yet afaik) but has been too busy with regular work lately. Now he seems to be sick too so I'm not sure when this will be done.

I'm not quite dead yet  Smiley
Just got sick with the flu.

I think that we haven't released all the details of PoI shows the team's confidence that the algorithm has no fatal flaw in it. Otherwise we wouldn't risk destroying all of our hard work over the last year.

                
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patmast3r
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March 07, 2015, 09:43:34 AM
 #12563

PSA: MAKE SURE YOU HAVE YOUR PRIV-KEY !!!

When NEMESIS hit's, if your priv-key is lost so are you.
Check it now! Don't come crying later!

We don't want NEM lying around in inaccessible accounts. Do your part and double check everything (Use the validator built into the wallet).

Check this thread and the forum from time to time. If we find problems with your account, in the DB there is no other way for us to reach you (been trying NXT messages...people don't answer).

PS: DO NOT take this as a hint that launch is coming. I've just noticed people don't keep their priv-keys safe.

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March 07, 2015, 10:01:04 AM
 #12564

Yes, thank you. I checked. All my doubts were empty. Reliable key - key on a flash drive.
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March 07, 2015, 10:02:59 AM
 #12565

I think CfB is a pretty amazing programmer, but probably not the best person for a review in this situation as he has already stated that if POI works he will copy it and put it in NXT.

This is correct, but priority changed a little, I'll put it into Jinn-related tech.


The POI algo to work correctly has to take into account some serious math...

It's not a problem, Jinn team has a math guy with PhD degree.
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March 07, 2015, 10:12:49 AM
 #12566

I think that we haven't released all the details of PoI shows the team's confidence that the algorithm has no fatal flaw in it.

I hope it's not a case of Schneier's law... Since last time I thought about how PoI could work I came to a solution, but it requires existence of a global network with unlimited throughput and/or zero latency.
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March 07, 2015, 10:23:12 AM
 #12567

Hi Lorenzo, you made some very good points.

I'll try to answer some of your questions.  

There really isn't a good word for remote harversting.  Some people think secure harvesting is a better term.  Really what it is to me is "proxy private key secure remote harvesting" but that is a lot of words that get jumbled. hahahaha.  

What that means is you can create a proxy private key that inherits your PoI score.  You can then securely and safely broadcast that private key to any node, even malicious nodes as there isn't any actual XEM in that account.  All the fees earned from harvesting with that private key are not given to that account, but instead redirected to the original account that had the original PoI.  

Because of this, I can totally feel free to leave my computer running at home on a raspi 24/7 or other computer.  If somebody breaks into my house and hacks into that computer to try to retrieve the private key, they only get the proxy key.  Likewise, I can feel totally safe harvesting on a hosted VPN knowing even if it is hacked or controlled by a malicious service, my account is still safe.  

Really the better term for it is "secure harvesting".

Now, what you were talking about wasn't really about remote harvesting but about another feature.  Basically in NEM any NCC (computer side wallet) can connect to any NIS (network node) and do transactions safely.  Yes, that is kind of like Electrum, but actually a big improvement on it.  The only threat is when somebody needs to harvest, they have to provide a private key to the NIS, thus the devs built in the feature of remote harvesting.  

NEM devs really have created something special here.  I am not sure if people really see and understand just how nice this is.  Also, the NCC is completely open source so any body can re-skin it and mix it up in a way that makes for a completely 3rd party app specialized to meet the needs of a specific company.  Think of how James is building Supernet on NXT, kind of like that, but you don't need to be a James and work closely with the main devs asking them for this or that, any company or any dev can do it.  

As far as NXT AE goes.  To me it has been by far the most successful feature of NXT and like you said James was able to do A LOT on that.  NEM will have to pull a special metaphorical rabbit out of its hat if it wants to have a better exchange, but I have confidence in them.  

Also, sadly I know about no fee blocks on NXT.  I have only been so lucky to have forged 3 blocks, but all of them were empty.  After that I gave up.  In reality there is a big problem with all crypto.  Bitcoin is subsidizing miners to almost a million dollars a day.  NXT got that down to hundreds. hahahaha.  But still there is a problem.  Many people like the original newbie asking questions on here wants lower fees and thought that they would change.  You and I both think that isn't going to change.  The problem is how do you support a network without fees, especially when it is being boot-strapped.  Again, NEM devs have been thinking about this I think as it is such an obvious issue that needs to be addressed.

As for your thoughts on NEM's POI needing a real world run and needing to be tested.  I completely agree with you.  As others have mentioned, NEM hasn't launched and hasn't had a lot of surprise attacks and people trying to manipulate and destroy it.  That testing needs to be done and until then, NEM can't actually claim that it is the real deal.


Ah, thanks. That's an excellent explanation of how remote harvesting works. It sounds like the equivalent of NXT's leased forging feature although I understand with NXT, the forging rewards aren't redirected automatically but instead have to be distributed manually by whoever you lease your account to (typically a pool).

As for the AE, I suppose if the platform is good enough, then the talent will follow.

Also I agree with your other points.
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March 07, 2015, 11:00:47 AM
 #12568


Ah, thanks. That's an excellent explanation of how remote harvesting works. It sounds like the equivalent of NXT's leased forging feature although I understand with NXT, the forging rewards aren't redirected automatically but instead have to be distributed manually by whoever you lease your account to (typically a pool).

As for the AE, I suppose if the platform is good enough, then the talent will follow.

Also I agree with your other points.

Yes, NEM's remote harvesting and NXT's leased forging have a lot in common, but the way I see it is NXT's leased forging was designed to be an answer to PoW's mining pools.  It allowed people that didn't have a node to still do a little forging (assuming the trusted node/pool manager pays them). 

Where as NEM's remote harvesting is actually a security precaution. 

So while the tech is similar, the reason to be and how it plays out is actually quite different.


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March 07, 2015, 11:24:11 AM
 #12569

I think that we haven't released all the details of PoI shows the team's confidence that the algorithm has no fatal flaw in it.

I hope it's not a case of Schneier's law... Since last time I thought about how PoI could work I came to a solution, but it requires existence of a global network with unlimited throughput and/or zero latency.

I'm not very math savvy and wasn't involved at all in the development of POI but I'm positive that neither unlimited throughput nor zero latency are assumptions made about the network for POI to work.

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March 07, 2015, 11:30:16 AM
 #12570


Ah, thanks. That's an excellent explanation of how remote harvesting works. It sounds like the equivalent of NXT's leased forging feature although I understand with NXT, the forging rewards aren't redirected automatically but instead have to be distributed manually by whoever you lease your account to (typically a pool).

As for the AE, I suppose if the platform is good enough, then the talent will follow.

Also I agree with your other points.

Yes, NEM's remote harvesting and NXT's leased forging have a lot in common, but the way I see it is NXT's leased forging was designed to be an answer to PoW's mining pools.  It allowed people that didn't have a node to still do a little forging (assuming the trusted node/pool manager pays them). 

Where as NEM's remote harvesting is actually a security precaution. 

So while the tech is similar, the reason to be and how it plays out is actually quite different.



Topic came up on forum.nemcoin.com as well in the last days. On the outside secure harvesting and leased forging sound the same but like jabo said they were created with different use cases in mind.
Both mechanisms transfer forging/harvesting power to another account.
Both do not jeopardize the original balance of the leasing account.
However with forged leasing you a) have to request your earnings manually and b) have to trust the other party not to spend your eanings until you request them. So while your original balance is safe your earnings aren't (plz correct me if I'm wrong).
Secure harvesting credits you automatically (no fees) and you don't have to trust anyone (which is why the term trustless harvesting is being discussed as better suiting).

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March 07, 2015, 12:29:18 PM
 #12571


Ah, thanks. That's an excellent explanation of how remote harvesting works. It sounds like the equivalent of NXT's leased forging feature although I understand with NXT, the forging rewards aren't redirected automatically but instead have to be distributed manually by whoever you lease your account to (typically a pool).

As for the AE, I suppose if the platform is good enough, then the talent will follow.

Also I agree with your other points.

Yes, NEM's remote harvesting and NXT's leased forging have a lot in common, but the way I see it is NXT's leased forging was designed to be an answer to PoW's mining pools.  It allowed people that didn't have a node to still do a little forging (assuming the trusted node/pool manager pays them). 

Where as NEM's remote harvesting is actually a security precaution. 

So while the tech is similar, the reason to be and how it plays out is actually quite different.



Topic came up on forum.nemcoin.com as well in the last days. On the outside secure harvesting and leased forging sound the same but like jabo said they were created with different use cases in mind.
Both mechanisms transfer forging/harvesting power to another account.
Both do not jeopardize the original balance of the leasing account.
However with forged leasing you a) have to request your earnings manually and b) have to trust the other party not to spend your eanings until you request them. So while your original balance is safe your earnings aren't (plz correct me if I'm wrong).
Secure harvesting credits you automatically (no fees) and you don't have to trust anyone (which is why the term trustless harvesting is being discussed as better suiting).

and the harvesting power doesnt get concentrated into one account in remote harvesting like it does with leased forging... with leased forging, its always most attractive to lease to the largest forger.. and everyone will want to go with the most attractive(profitable) and therefore result in centralisation of forging power into fewer bigger holders.. its one thing putting earnings at risk, but this could potentially put the entire network at risk.. nems remote/secure harvesting allows for the same benefits(and more, like being able to transact securely with remote nis also) with out the above mentioned drawbacks..

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March 07, 2015, 04:13:26 PM
 #12572

I've just downloaded the windows installer for 0.5.16 and, having started it, the client was syncing ok then I got this message:

Quote
NIS needs to be booted. Please open your wallet and boot a local node via the popup dialog or configure the auto-boot setting.

But when I entered my password to open my wallet I got this: 

Quote
error 121 The address book file does not exist

I also used to get the same error msg. when I entered my password using the previous version of the client but the wallet nevertheless always opened, but with the new client it doesn't  Huh

Any help appreciated – many thanks  Smiley
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March 07, 2015, 04:17:40 PM
 #12573

If poi is still being worked on would that mean there will be more beta release still before launch? March may not be the month.
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March 07, 2015, 04:22:06 PM
 #12574

If poi is still being worked on would that mean there will be more beta release still before launch? March may not be the month.

my guess is one more release soon, then final testing/spamming of that version and then launch before the end of march.. Cheesy

hopefully.. Roll Eyes

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March 07, 2015, 06:34:26 PM
 #12575

However with forged leasing you a) have to request your earnings manually and b) have to trust the other party not to spend your eanings until you request them. So while your original balance is safe your earnings aren't (plz correct me if I'm wrong).

You are right. Please note that leasing requires trust to the beneficiary intentionally.
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March 07, 2015, 07:17:30 PM
 #12576

However with forged leasing you a) have to request your earnings manually and b) have to trust the other party not to spend your eanings until you request them. So while your original balance is safe your earnings aren't (plz correct me if I'm wrong).

You are right. Please note that leasing requires trust to the beneficiary intentionally.
what was the thought process behind that? Cos it really doesn't sound like the right decision?

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March 07, 2015, 07:34:54 PM
 #12577


(Use the validator built into the wallet).


Pat,

Can you expand on the above or link to more details if already published?

MT

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March 07, 2015, 07:40:01 PM
 #12578


(Use the validator built into the wallet).


Pat,

Can you expand on the above or link to more details if already published?

MT

KC
click the cog next to your address in the client > click verify account data > enter address, public key and private key and click  ok.

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March 07, 2015, 08:01:27 PM
 #12579

It's time for launch.
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March 07, 2015, 08:31:42 PM
 #12580

what was the thought process behind that? Cos it really doesn't sound like the right decision?

It's a long story that is out of scope of this thread. Look for a thread about autopayment to lessors on Nxt forum.
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