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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2022644 times)
brg444
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November 08, 2014, 05:31:29 PM
 #16241

talk about backpedaling.

so now your argument is no longer that this will not happen but instead that fools will be fools, which was my point all along.

You really shouldn't talk about backpedaling, this is really all you've been doing for the last 100 pages.

My argument was never that schemes like this wouldn't happen. In fact, please dig up ONE post where I say so. I'll wait

Of course, and this actually support my point.

We are going to see MtGoxCHAIN, MoohlahCHAIN *truthcoinCHAIN* but eventually CoinbaseCHAIN, CircleCHAIN or BitstampCHAIN are going to be established and these are the ones "ordinary people" are going to use

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 08, 2014, 06:27:20 PM
 #16242

I don't know if it is a new problem or not, but the explanations and creation of understandings in the minds of the broader public may be made more difficult by the "one ledger only" notions.  EmptyGox very clearly had its own ledger which at some point became irreconcilable with the Bitcoin block chain.  If it were a side chain company that had monkeyed with its code to do these shenanigans, it would possibly been more noticeable (if it were being openly mined by folks that examine source changes), but if they managed to keep it hidden, or were privately mining (like Ripple?) it may also be more difficult to explain to the "one ledger only" believers how this is possible.

In the earlier example where scBTC1 failed and scBTC2 became an altcoin, at some point in this process there are very clearly (at least) two separate ledgers.  
I would suggest that at the inception of each of the side chain's block chain, there and then emerges a new ledger, which are each potentially merge-able.  Others might suggest some other time.  Maybe at one of the many changes that resulted in the failure of scBTC1, or maybe after it fails, or maybe never and the scBTC2 altcoin and Bitcoin are still just one ledger.  In that case, when the ledger of scBTC1 failed, some might get confused and say the Bitcoin ledger failed.  (Since they have been told that there is only one ledger, and something failed, so it must be that.)

It seems simpler and more sensible to me to consider each side chain its own potentially merge-able ledger.  It is hard enough to try to explain how a ledger is merged with "something" when there is only one ledger in the first place, with what then is it merged?

I think the notion that there is one main ledger is absolutely accurate

In my view, the more accurate definition of sidechains are that they are a sub-ledgers of Bitcoin.

I would suggest that at the inception of each of the side chain's block chain, there and then emerges a new ledger, which are each potentially merge-able.

This is the part where I disagree. There are no coins in a sidechain at its inception therefore there is no ledger. The ledger is only created once coins derived from the main ledger (Bitcoin) are locked into the sidechain.

For that reason I believe the best way to describe it is one main ledger equipped with several other sub-ledgers that derive their monetary unit from the main ledger.


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 08, 2014, 06:39:09 PM
 #16243

talk about backpedaling.

so now your argument is no longer that this will not happen but instead that fools will be fools, which was my point all along.

You really shouldn't talk about backpedaling, this is really all you've been doing for the last 100 pages.

My argument was never that schemes like this wouldn't happen. In fact, please dig up ONE post where I say so. I'll wait

Of course, and this actually support my point.

We are going to see MtGoxCHAIN, MoohlahCHAIN *truthcoinCHAIN* but eventually CoinbaseCHAIN, CircleCHAIN or BitstampCHAIN are going to be established and these are the ones "ordinary people" are going to use

 the whole point of this exercise I've initiated has flown over your head. The point being to explore every con possible due to what's at stake. By my willing to explore every plausible as well as non plausible scenario despite your shilling along with the criticism of me you've been able to generate I've successfully pigeon holed you down into your narrow minded world view of the only way SC's I think, and apparently you too, can possibly work. And that is with only 2  utility chains for faster tx and anonymity with 100% MM and NO speculation via other SC's.  

You severely lack imagination. I think I've labeled the wrong simpleton simpleton.  
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November 08, 2014, 06:55:59 PM
 #16244

the whole point of this exercise I've initiated has flown over your head. The point being to explore every con possible due to what's at stake. By my willing to explore every plausible as well as non plausible scenario despite your shilling along with the criticism of me you've been able to generate I've successfully pigeon holed you into your narrow minded world view of the only way SC's I think, and apparently you too, can possibly work. And that is with only 2  utility chains for faster tx and anonymity with 100% MM and NO speculation via other SC's.  

You severely lack imagination. I think I've labeled the wrong simpleton simpleton.  

 Cheesy

you're so basic cypherdoc.

one only has to read the whole discussion to realize how far you've moved the goal posts since your original concerns. you may comfort yourself with your twists and turns to the argument that you have somehow the upper hand but it is tragically obvious to anyone following along you are just digging yourself a deeper hole.

the problem is not that I lack imagination, it is that you suffer from a terrible case of selective reading and convenient ignorance of valid objections to your desperate fearmongering.

the point of this exercise, as you say, was to identify risks that sidechains introduced that were never possible before. I would say you have spectacularly failed at this attempt.


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 08, 2014, 06:57:49 PM
 #16245

I don't know if it is a new problem or not, but the explanations and creation of understandings in the minds of the broader public may be made more difficult by the "one ledger only" notions.  EmptyGox very clearly had its own ledger which at some point became irreconcilable with the Bitcoin block chain.  If it were a side chain company that had monkeyed with its code to do these shenanigans, it would possibly been more noticeable (if it were being openly mined by folks that examine source changes), but if they managed to keep it hidden, or were privately mining (like Ripple?) it may also be more difficult to explain to the "one ledger only" believers how this is possible.

In the earlier example where scBTC1 failed and scBTC2 became an altcoin, at some point in this process there are very clearly (at least) two separate ledgers.  
I would suggest that at the inception of each of the side chain's block chain, there and then emerges a new ledger, which are each potentially merge-able.  Others might suggest some other time.  Maybe at one of the many changes that resulted in the failure of scBTC1, or maybe after it fails, or maybe never and the scBTC2 altcoin and Bitcoin are still just one ledger.  In that case, when the ledger of scBTC1 failed, some might get confused and say the Bitcoin ledger failed.  (Since they have been told that there is only one ledger, and something failed, so it must be that.)

It seems simpler and more sensible to me to consider each side chain its own potentially merge-able ledger.  It is hard enough to try to explain how a ledger is merged with "something" when there is only one ledger in the first place, with what then is it merged?

I think the notion that there is one main ledger is absolutely accurate

In my view, the more accurate definition of sidechains are that they are a sub-ledgers of Bitcoin.

I would suggest that at the inception of each of the side chain's block chain, there and then emerges a new ledger, which are each potentially merge-able.

This is the part where I disagree. There are no coins in a sidechain at its inception therefore there is no ledger. The ledger is only created once coins derived from the main ledger (Bitcoin) are locked into the sidechain.

For that reason I believe the best way to describe it is one main ledger equipped with several other sub-ledgers that derive their monetary unit from the main ledger.



Lol, earlier on you admitted to me we were dealing with "different"  ledgers after I had to correct you .

Answer this,  what ledger with integrity allows part of itself to be cut off from its main body as in NL's SC2 scenario?
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November 08, 2014, 07:04:07 PM
 #16246


I think the notion that there is one main ledger is absolutely accurate

In my view, the more accurate definition of sidechains are that they are a sub-ledgers of Bitcoin.

I would mention that in certain fairly important ways, the transparency of the open blockchain is more of a bug than a feature when it comes to free use of the currency.  Aside from the obvious privacy issues it also cracks the door more than a little for such things as 'red-listing'.

In other ways it is absolutely a feature, and the one which is primarily responsible for the confidence that one may have in the system integrity.  So it, like so many things, is a mixed bag.

Point is that sidechains have the potential to favor and disfavor the pros and cons of this transparency depending on their individual goals.  To the extent that some sidechains will almost certainly put some focus on privacy it will make it significantly more difficult to perform privacy-quashing analysis in the Bitcoin masterchain.


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November 08, 2014, 07:06:17 PM
 #16247

Of course you don't care because you believe your reputation to be teflon but I might suggest your reconsider this position because I am certainly not the only one here who has been disappointed by your deceptive, dishonest attitude and attempt at spreading FUD without proper consideration or knowledge of the facts at hand.

I guess the fact that you recognize I have "generated" criticism of you and your clueless argumentative shows you realize your back is to the wall but please know we are all open to accept your concession and hope that your blind ego will not have us engage in anymore disingenuous arguments.


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 08, 2014, 07:11:53 PM
 #16248

the whole point of this exercise I've initiated has flown over your head. The point being to explore every con possible due to what's at stake. By my willing to explore every plausible as well as non plausible scenario despite your shilling along with the criticism of me you've been able to generate I've successfully pigeon holed you into your narrow minded world view of the only way SC's I think, and apparently you too, can possibly work. And that is with only 2  utility chains for faster tx and anonymity with 100% MM and NO speculation via other SC's.  

You severely lack imagination. I think I've labeled the wrong simpleton simpleton.  

 Cheesy

you're so basic cypherdoc.

one only has to read the whole discussion to realize how far you've moved the goal posts since your original concerns. you may comfort yourself with your twists and turns to the argument that you have somehow the upper hand but it is tragically obvious to anyone following along you are just digging yourself a deeper hole.

the problem is not that I lack imagination, it is that you suffer from a terrible case of selective reading and convenient ignorance of valid objections to your desperate fearmongering.

the point of this exercise, as you say, was to identify risks that sidechains introduced that were never possible before. I would say you have spectacularly failed at this attempt.



There you go again.  This was never about taking a set  position and trying to defend that in a fixed goal post  way. This discussion was meant to stimulate imaginative debate about a the possible  cons of SC's. It's about going down one path and being cut off (oops that doesn't work) , going down another path  and getting cut off again (wrong) all the while not giving up until everyone is satisfied.  We are far from that point as i for one am far from satisfied.
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November 08, 2014, 07:15:08 PM
 #16249

Did you answer my question about ledgers? 
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November 08, 2014, 07:16:46 PM
 #16250

There you go again.  This was never about taking a set  position and trying to defend that in a fixed goal post  way. This discussion was meant to stimulate imaginative debate about a the possible  cons of SC's. It's about going down one path and being cut off (oops that doesn't work) , going down another path  and getting cut off again (wrong) all the while not giving up until everyone is satisfied.  We are far from that point as i for one am far from satisfied.

Oh please, don't make me have to dig up your old posts. You were literally on a witch hunt for the Blockstream devs and their motives and at one point qualified sidechains unequivocally as "sidescams".

This "higher than thou" attitude your are now parading is quite sickening I might say. This was no brainstorm and discussions "meant to stimulate imaginative debate". Your goal all along was to discredit sidechains and their creators

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 08, 2014, 07:22:22 PM
 #16251

There you go again.  This was never about taking a set  position and trying to defend that in a fixed goal post  way. This discussion was meant to stimulate imaginative debate about a the possible  cons of SC's. It's about going down one path and being cut off (oops that doesn't work) , going down another path  and getting cut off again (wrong) all the while not giving up until everyone is satisfied.  We are far from that point as i for one am far from satisfied.

Oh please, don't make me have to dig up your old posts. You were literally on a witch hunt for the Blockstream devs and their motives and at one point qualified sidechains unequivocally as "sidescams".

This "higher than thou" attitude your are now parading is quite sickening I might say. This was no brainstorm and discussions "meant to stimulate imaginative debate". Your goal all along was to discredit sidechains and their creators

Desperation devoid of argument.

I love it.
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November 08, 2014, 07:24:04 PM
 #16252

Answer this,  what ledger with integrity allows part of itself to be cut off from its main body as in NL's SC2 scenario?

What kind of question is this? "What ledger with integrity"?

"What ledger with integrity allows 800,000 of its coin to be lost to Mt.Gox"

The ledger is neutral. Its users decide on the integrity of its use. If they decide to confer some of the main ledger's unit to a corrupted subchain then they are responsible for the ensuing risks. At the end of the day the main ledger is not affected by the failure of one of its sub ledger.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 08, 2014, 07:27:53 PM
 #16253

Answer this,  what ledger with integrity allows part of itself to be cut off from its main body as in NL's SC2 scenario?

What kind of question is this? "What ledger with integrity"?

"What ledger with integrity allows 800,000 of its coin to be lost to Mt.Gox"

The ledger is neutral. Its users decide on the integrity of its use. If they decide to confer some of the main ledger's unit to a corrupted subchain then they are responsible for the ensuing risks. At the end of the day the main ledger is not affected by the failure of one of its sub ledger.

A ledger that allows those gox coins  to simply change hands to those of the attacker,  not one where the coins vaporize.
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November 08, 2014, 07:29:11 PM
 #16254

There you go again.  This was never about taking a set  position and trying to defend that in a fixed goal post  way. This discussion was meant to stimulate imaginative debate about a the possible  cons of SC's. It's about going down one path and being cut off (oops that doesn't work) , going down another path  and getting cut off again (wrong) all the while not giving up until everyone is satisfied.  We are far from that point as i for one am far from satisfied.

Oh please, don't make me have to dig up your old posts. You were literally on a witch hunt for the Blockstream devs and their motives and at one point qualified sidechains unequivocally as "sidescams".

This "higher than thou" attitude your are now parading is quite sickening I might say. This was no brainstorm and discussions "meant to stimulate imaginative debate". Your goal all along was to discredit sidechains and their creators

Desperation devoid of argument.

I love it.

the only desperate person here is you cypher. your motives have been clear and disappointingly dishonest from the start. I am not the only one who has seen through your bullshit. don't think for a second you can claim this "whole excercise" as you say was for the greater good of everyone. we could've arrived at destination much faster if we all didn't have to "show you the light" and debunk your paranoiac hyperbole scenarios

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 08, 2014, 07:34:01 PM
 #16255

Answer this,  what ledger with integrity allows part of itself to be cut off from its main body as in NL's SC2 scenario?

What kind of question is this? "What ledger with integrity"?

"What ledger with integrity allows 800,000 of its coin to be lost to Mt.Gox"

The ledger is neutral. Its users decide on the integrity of its use. If they decide to confer some of the main ledger's unit to a corrupted subchain then they are responsible for the ensuing risks. At the end of the day the main ledger is not affected by the failure of one of its sub ledger.

A ledger that allows those gox coins  to simply change hands to those of the attacker,  not one where the coins vaporize.

The mechanism by which the sub-ledger is corrupted changes nothing to the argument.


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 08, 2014, 07:35:41 PM
 #16256

There you go again.  This was never about taking a set  position and trying to defend that in a fixed goal post  way. This discussion was meant to stimulate imaginative debate about a the possible  cons of SC's. It's about going down one path and being cut off (oops that doesn't work) , going down another path  and getting cut off again (wrong) all the while not giving up until everyone is satisfied.  We are far from that point as i for one am far from satisfied.

Oh please, don't make me have to dig up your old posts. You were literally on a witch hunt for the Blockstream devs and their motives and at one point qualified sidechains unequivocally as "sidescams".

This "higher than thou" attitude your are now parading is quite sickening I might say. This was no brainstorm and discussions "meant to stimulate imaginative debate". Your goal all along was to discredit sidechains and their creators

Desperation devoid of argument.

I love it.

the only desperate person here is you cypher. your motives have been clear and disappointingly dishonest from the start. I am not the only one who has seen through your bullshit. don't think for a second you can claim this "whole excercise" as you say was for the greater good of everyone. we could've arrived at destination much faster if we all didn't have to "show you the light" and debunk your paranoiac hyperbole scenarios

Hey, I'm having fun here. I  enjoy listening to all your ad hominems.

And the only thing I don't care about is my reputation as I don't have anyoneiI need to please except myself knowing that I have no conflict of interest and my motives are pure in simply trying to protect Bitcoin. I honestly doubt you can say the same thing.
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November 08, 2014, 07:39:38 PM
 #16257

Hey, I'm having fun here. I  enjoy listening to all your ad hominems.

And the only thing I don't care about is my reputation as I don't have anyoneiI need to please except myself knowing that I have no conflict of interest and my motives are pure in simply trying to protect Bitcoin. I honestly doubt you can say the same thing.

 Roll Eyes

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 08, 2014, 07:40:53 PM
 #16258

Answer this,  what ledger with integrity allows part of itself to be cut off from its main body as in NL's SC2 scenario?

What kind of question is this? "What ledger with integrity"?

"What ledger with integrity allows 800,000 of its coin to be lost to Mt.Gox"

The ledger is neutral. Its users decide on the integrity of its use. If they decide to confer some of the main ledger's unit to a corrupted subchain then they are responsible for the ensuing risks. At the end of the day the main ledger is not affected by the failure of one of its sub ledger.

A ledger that allows those gox coins  to simply change hands to those of the attacker,  not one where the coins vaporize.

The mechanism by which the sub-ledger is corrupted changes nothing to the argument.



Sure it does. The derivative SC's will enable a new type of hack or attack we've never heard of or seen before in Bitcoin. Maybe we can call it the "decapitation attack".
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November 08, 2014, 07:44:58 PM
 #16259

Hey, I'm having fun here. I  enjoy listening to all your ad hominems.

And the only thing I don't care about is my reputation as I don't have anyoneiI need to please except myself knowing that I have no conflict of interest and my motives are pure in simply trying to protect Bitcoin. I honestly doubt you can say the same thing.

 Roll Eyes

I sincerely believe that. I can't explain your actions any other way.

Like i said, you're like my shadow defender trying to deny me the ball at every step.
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November 08, 2014, 07:47:16 PM
 #16260

Hey, I'm having fun here. I  enjoy listening to all your ad hominems.

And the only thing I don't care about is my reputation as I don't have anyoneiI need to please except myself knowing that I have no conflict of interest and my motives are pure in simply trying to protect Bitcoin. I honestly doubt you can say the same thing.

 Roll Eyes

I sincerely believe that. I can't explain your actions any other way.

Like i said, you're like my shadow defender trying to deny me the ball at every step.

My actions are the result of the witch hunt crusade you have entertained the very moment sidechains were announced. I do not tolerate disinformation and fear mongering and you will see me call you out on it everytime.


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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