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Author Topic: Gigamining / Teramining  (Read 201562 times)
Bitcoin Oz
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December 09, 2012, 11:16:09 PM
 #1581

The only person winning here is the lawyer from what i can tell.

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December 09, 2012, 11:28:31 PM
 #1582

For U.S. residents, an apostille is of course not necessary, and most people can get notarizing done for free or a very nominal fee.  [...] So I'm not sure whether Giga is in a position where he could do a buyback for those people who are looking at a big expense for apostille, since those are the people for whom OFAC regulations become an issue.

Wrong and wrong. An apostille + getting a notary look at you while you sign something costs quite a bit around here not because my home country is fighting the US or something but simply because we have a much higher GDP and standard of living than the US. Also to open a bank account (and getting a credit card on top of that with a few thousand EUR limit) I need less paperwork than to finally get my ~5-6 EUR worth of dividends off shares that I bought for ~40 EUR worth at that time.

As far as I understand it, all I owned all the time was a simple contract that was bought from giga (or someone else who bought it from giga) that guaranteed me that he'd be hashing Bitcoins and send me an amount that was specified in the contract in certain intervals. This is not much more than any renderfarm or provider of webservers does. I guess all the fear and "lawyering" stems from the fact that Bitcoin might in the future(?) considered some kind of money which would mean I bought a contract for getting money and not a simple service. Maybe something along the lines of buying a money printing press collectively...

However, I'd like to see proof that Bitcoin are actually money first and/or creating Bitcoin is an act of cerating money and not equivalent to rendering a frame of Big Buck Bunny or Elephant's Dream (just with different algorithms running) before I comply with these regulations prematurely. Actually anyone sending their info to this lawyer (if he even exists/is a lawyer!) might get into far bigger trouble should Bitcoin really be considered money and Bitcoin mining be considered an act of creating money.

yeah, it costs alot... take a look at this site here in sweden: http://www.notariuspublicus.se/prislista/

Intygande / Affidavit 500 kr
+
Apostille 325 kr
=
825 kr and is like $123.

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December 10, 2012, 04:40:19 AM
 #1583

Can somebody advise me on what to do here? I have 40 shares which I really have no idea what they are worth any more. I am somewhat hesitant to send my personal information to somebody who I don't know and don't have a lot of reason to trust (or distrust.. no data either way), but it seems that's the only way to get anything back out of this investment.

Can somebody summarize some arguments both ways for me? And also has anyone done the claim process and gotten some coins back yet? Anyone have success doing the claim without handing over their Social Security number (my least fave part of this whole deal).

Thanks.
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December 10, 2012, 11:40:15 AM
 #1584

Can somebody advise me on what to do here?
Lawyer up... potentially sue the LLC. Anything else probably puts you in a worse situation.

As I already wrote, there are probably 2 ways to look at a mining contract:
1) You're paying money and getting money back (progagbly Giga's lawyer's pov) - this means you're earning interest on an investment etc.
2) You're paying money and getting a service back (hashing work converted to Bitcoin) - similar to any contract that sells computation power (like render farms).

Probably nobody knows which of these 2 will hold in front of a court (even the "you're paying money" is debatable, if Bitocin are not money in the first place), the worse case of these 2 is of course case 1), where Giga nearly operates a bank/money printing operation from a legal pov. To decide definitively you need to lawyer up, drag Giga's LLC to court and you'll probably settle this out of court, since it's much cheaper to just pay you whatever you want to have for the 40 shares than to risk having to pay all "bond"holders if the court really makes a decision.

There will be a LOT of people not jumping through these regulations and just writing the few shares off, so Giga can probably easily pay his lawyer from the money you threw at him.

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December 10, 2012, 02:04:48 PM
 #1585

Can somebody advise me on what to do here?
Lawyer up... potentially sue the LLC. Anything else probably puts you in a worse situation.

As I already wrote, there are probably 2 ways to look at a mining contract:
1) You're paying money and getting money back (progagbly Giga's lawyer's pov) - this means you're earning interest on an investment etc.
2) You're paying money and getting a service back (hashing work converted to Bitcoin) - similar to any contract that sells computation power (like render farms).

Probably nobody knows which of these 2 will hold in front of a court (even the "you're paying money" is debatable, if Bitocin are not money in the first place), the worse case of these 2 is of course case 1), where Giga nearly operates a bank/money printing operation from a legal pov. To decide definitively you need to lawyer up, drag Giga's LLC to court and you'll probably settle this out of court, since it's much cheaper to just pay you whatever you want to have for the 40 shares than to risk having to pay all "bond"holders if the court really makes a decision.

There will be a LOT of people not jumping through these regulations and just writing the few shares off, so Giga can probably easily pay his lawyer from the money you threw at him.
OR

You can just fill out the form, send in the information and start getting your dividends.  On this path you will:

1) Have to trust his attorney to keep your information private and secure.
2) Get a 1099 (or other form if you are not in the US) at the end of the year which will contain the dollar value of all BTC sent to you, valued at the time they were sent.
3) Since you get a 1099 (or other form) it will be up to you to report this on your income tax form
4) I personally believe that the GIGAMINING share are now worth zero as (so far anyway) there is no method to sell or transfer them to anyone else
5) Therefore you could probably write off the entire (USD equivalent) amount you used to buy the shares - this would offset any 1099 income and will probably give you a net loss on your taxes

On the last point you should concur with someone that knows what they are talking about I am not a tax guru.

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December 10, 2012, 02:15:01 PM
 #1586

Can somebody advise me on what to do here?
Lawyer up... potentially sue the LLC. Anything else probably puts you in a worse situation.

Sue over 40 shares?

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December 10, 2012, 02:34:20 PM
 #1587

4) I personally believe that the GIGAMINING share are now worth zero as (so far anyway) there is no method to sell or transfer them to anyone else
The pending BTC is 3984 for 40,000 shares, so they are at least 3984 / 40,000 = 0,0996 BTC each.
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December 10, 2012, 03:55:30 PM
 #1588

4) I personally believe that the GIGAMINING share are now worth zero as (so far anyway) there is no method to sell or transfer them to anyone else
The pending BTC is 3984 for 40,000 shares, so they are at least 3984 / 40,000 = 0,0996 BTC each.
I meant the market value of the contract/shares/bonds themselves assuming you keep them, they are not transferrable, you receive all pending and future BTC payouts (1099 income), ASICs hit the market this coming year, etc.

Our family was terrorized by Homeland Security.  Read all about it here:  http://www.jmwagner.com/ and http://www.burtw.com/  Any donations to help us recover from the $300,000 in legal fees and forced donations to the Federal Asset Forfeiture slush fund are greatly appreciated!
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December 10, 2012, 04:10:10 PM
 #1589

4) I personally believe that the GIGAMINING share are now worth zero as (so far anyway) there is no method to sell or transfer them to anyone else
The pending BTC is 3984 for 40,000 shares, so they are at least 3984 / 40,000 = 0,0996 BTC each.
I meant the market value of the contract/shares/bonds themselves assuming you keep them, they are not transferrable, you receive all pending and future BTC payouts (1099 income), ASICs hit the market this coming year, etc.

They are never worthless as they perpetually pay. So he is on the hook forever. They must be bought back unless
he wants to keep paying forever. And in order to buy back a price must be set times 1.05. And saying it is 0 at this
point in time is simply inaccurate.
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December 10, 2012, 04:22:32 PM
 #1590

4) I personally believe that the GIGAMINING share are now worth zero as (so far anyway) there is no method to sell or transfer them to anyone else
The pending BTC is 3984 for 40,000 shares, so they are at least 3984 / 40,000 = 0,0996 BTC each.
I meant the market value of the contract/shares/bonds themselves assuming you keep them, they are not transferrable, you receive all pending and future BTC payouts (1099 income), ASICs hit the market this coming year, etc.

They are never worthless as they perpetually pay. So he is on the hook forever. They must be bought back unless
he wants to keep paying forever. And in order to buy back a price must be set times 1.05. And saying it is 0 at this
point in time is simply inaccurate.
That is my opinion as far as taxes go.  Please ignore it.  Thanks.

Our family was terrorized by Homeland Security.  Read all about it here:  http://www.jmwagner.com/ and http://www.burtw.com/  Any donations to help us recover from the $300,000 in legal fees and forced donations to the Federal Asset Forfeiture slush fund are greatly appreciated!
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December 10, 2012, 11:18:18 PM
 #1591

Can somebody advise me on what to do here?
Lawyer up... potentially sue the LLC. Anything else probably puts you in a worse situation.

Sue over 40 shares?
Well, they were worth more than 1 BTC per share at IPO - over 180 Leu is also something, isn't it?

Also depending on your insurances (you can insure against legal expenses quite cheap), something like this might anyways be covered. Reporting at the police as the bare minimum is surely free and depending on your country's standing with the US could also already create some attitude changes in the LLC that holds our shares hostage.

Also if you fill these forms, if Giga goes down, you're going down with him. He has an LLC - do you?

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December 11, 2012, 12:28:35 AM
 #1592

Can somebody advise me on what to do here?
Lawyer up... potentially sue the LLC. Anything else probably puts you in a worse situation.

Sue over 40 shares?
Well, they were worth more than 1 BTC per share at IPO - over 180 Leu is also something, isn't it?

Also depending on your insurances (you can insure against legal expenses quite cheap), something like this might anyways be covered. Reporting at the police as the bare minimum is surely free and depending on your country's standing with the US could also already create some attitude changes in the LLC that holds our shares hostage.

Also if you fill these forms, if Giga goes down, you're going down with him. He has an LLC - do you?

I do not think you can do what he did and retroactively move to an llc on a whim. That wont fly.
The longer this is delayed, more bs piled on, etc.. The better for the operator. People are getting played right now. It is so easy to see. Apply pressure now.
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December 11, 2012, 04:58:18 AM
 #1593


I do not think you can do what he did and retroactively move to an llc on a whim. That wont fly.


Was it retroactive? I thought he'd always had the LLC, as noted:


http://gigamining.com/faq.html

Quote
Virtual Processing Solutions, LLC is the business I have owned and operated by me, James Gibson, since July 20, 2011 to encompass all mining and business activities I have been a part of in the bitcoin community. These records are available via the Florida government websites and this business is in good standing with all local, state and federal agencies which govern it.



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December 11, 2012, 06:03:49 AM
 #1594


I do not think you can do what he did and retroactively move to an llc on a whim. That wont fly.


Was it retroactive? I thought he'd always had the LLC, as noted:


http://gigamining.com/faq.html

Quote
Virtual Processing Solutions, LLC is the business I have owned and operated by me, James Gibson, since July 20, 2011 to encompass all mining and business activities I have been a part of in the bitcoin community. These records are available via the Florida government websites and this business is in good standing with all local, state and federal agencies which govern it.



Him having the LLC isn't the same thing as the contracts being pffered by the LLC.  For that to be the case he'd need to have identified the LLC as offering the contracts when said contracts were offered.  You can't personally enter a contract then later claim that your commitments under that contract were actually made by an undisclosed LLC.  Maybe he DID state the LLC was offering the contracts - if so, all he has to do is show where that was spelled out (or if he claims that was stated in the GLBSE contract, say so - as apparently he's claiming not to have bothered keeping a copy of his own contract).
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December 11, 2012, 08:43:39 AM
 #1595

they are worthless when your perpetual payments are from a scammer

They are never worthless as they perpetually pay. So he is on the hook forever. They must be bought back unless
he wants to keep paying forever. And in order to buy back a price must be set times 1.05. And saying it is 0 at this
point in time is simply inaccurate.
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December 11, 2012, 01:26:25 PM
 #1596

Can somebody advise me on what to do here?
Lawyer up... potentially sue the LLC. Anything else probably puts you in a worse situation.

Sue over 40 shares?
Well, they were worth more than 1 BTC per share at IPO - over 180 Leu is also something, isn't it?

Also depending on your insurances (you can insure against legal expenses quite cheap), something like this might anyways be covered. Reporting at the police as the bare minimum is surely free and depending on your country's standing with the US could also already create some attitude changes in the LLC that holds our shares hostage.

Also if you fill these forms, if Giga goes down, you're going down with him. He has an LLC - do you?

FWIW 180 Lei would buy you a modest lawn mower, so I guess it's something. The problem here is that while banks give away free toaster ovens with any new account, lawyers do not give away free lawn mowers with every new customer.

They also cost something like that to just read your case description. And by something like that I mean more than that.

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December 11, 2012, 04:30:43 PM
 #1597

That's why I mentioned insurances. Clearly the path of the law is paved with money, but some of the more basic steps (go to the police, file a potential fraud claim) are often free. Also at least around here once a week any citizen can go to the local court and get to talk to a lawyer + get legal advice for free. I bet the ppl. there would be more than happy not to hear about the next tree that has branches growing over the fence or some other borig stuff but something more exotic like these contracts/bonds.

As I still haven't gotten any reply back from this lawyer (even though I set a quite generous deadline for an answer), it's now time for me to escalate this further...

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December 11, 2012, 04:45:51 PM
 #1598

As I still haven't gotten any reply back from this lawyer

Hi Sukrim,

There was no point in Quentin replying until the affidavit was available for everyone. I will be speaking with him today regarding the Teramining contract and will ask when he will start replying. If you feel your patience has been worn thin, I apologize, but this is not going as fast as I would like either.

Best,
James
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December 11, 2012, 06:26:46 PM
 #1599

I have a question, what about Digital Signature, here in Bulgaria I can get one for 10-16 Euros, and I can sign electronic mails, documents etc. It is accepted by government, banks so on. This way I only have to sign a pdf or whatever and you know that it's me who is signing. No need for scanned IDs and affidavit for the pdf.

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December 11, 2012, 07:23:49 PM
 #1600

I have a question, what about Digital Signature, here in Bulgaria I can get one for 10-16 Euros, and I can sign electronic mails, documents etc. It is accepted by government, banks so on. This way I only have to sign a pdf or whatever and you know that it's me who is signing. No need for scanned IDs and affidavit for the pdf.

That way would be nice to have it done.

I'm searching for a law firm that does that... if not, then I have to print the paper... get it to the guy that signatures it and then take a photo of the document an then e-mail it to the gigamining lawyer.

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