Re: Black Arrow 28nm 100Ghash Bitcoin ASIC from $0.49/GH/s

[Pentax]

Well this now looks even worse, even BFL is offering pretty good compensation plans for their tardiness.  An extra 250% of hashing power for batch 1 customers!  Puts BA to shame.  You know your behind the times when you out BFL, BFL.

Yea bfl is totally putting BA to shame..

A $5000 monarch has gone from 600gh -> 1000gh

Where as a $4000 prospero has gone from 2000gh -> 2900gh

Jimmothy, I have not bothered you or your comments on BA this entire time.  I have seen your input as valid and have even taken to heart some of the things that you have said.  And yet you come out attacking everyone no matter what.

A prospero is ~$6,000 first of all, BA is giving their "compensation" package to everyone, not just those who paid at the very first price.  Also the $5000 monarch is going from 600 GH to 1.6 TH, please understand the full package before trying to refute.
Hopefully the 2.9 TH/s will be able to be run at a home, given the high power consumption running at that level, it will be a stretch to fit one of the X-3 boxes on a circuit.
BFL is actually giving the hardware to their customers whereas I get cloud mining that I cannot even resell when it becomes (if not already shipped as) worthless.
BFL is delaying 5 weeks, BA is delaying 8 weeks.  (I understand this may change based on companies pasts, but for now that's what we have to go on, all biases aside).  I am sure I do not have to tell you how precious 3 weeks can be in the mining world, unless you are BA and do not care about your customers interests in making a profit because all you do is manufacture mining equipment.

I thought BA compensation was only for batch 1 orders.

Bfl is not delaying 5 weeks. They promised delivery of every month since november. They will not ship in 5 weeks or even 2 months.

Anyways the 250% compensation is only for the earliest orders for a monarch and comparing it to the earliest orders of a prospero it is still lacking.

My point is that because they ripped off their customers so much, they can afford to give a better compensation.

I too wish we could get double the hashrate for compensation but that would mean we would be getting hardware for around $1/gh and BA couldn't afford it. Asicminer gen3 chips alone will be $1/gh

I'm leaning more towards yes they can afford to do better than what they have put forward, although without seeing their accounting records, there's no way of knowing that, so we're both speculating.

This product is an early mover in a market without fully developed competitive forces, launched at a time of high demand.  Based on normal market theory, this is the time at which profit margins are highest.

KnC is giving equivalent hash power until their customers get a unit, and yes I know their units are more expensive.  Cointerra reportedly gave their Batch 1 customers a free extra Terraminer IV for their difficulties and have stated in clear language that if anyone wants out, they'll issue a refund.

Black Arrow is operating in the same marketplace and, while these others can take these steps we're supposed to believe BA is unable, although they are arguably operating in the most low cost manufacturing location of the three.  I simply don't believe that this is the best they can do.  It's an opinion, of course, although it's based on some knowledge of market theory and the actions of their direct competitors, which seemingly tells a different story.

 

I could be wrong, of course, but that's how I see it.

[DebitMe]

Well this now looks even worse, even BFL is offering pretty good compensation plans for their tardiness.  An extra 250% of hashing power for batch 1 customers!  Puts BA to shame.  You know your behind the times when you out BFL, BFL.

Yea bfl is totally putting BA to shame..

A $5000 monarch has gone from 600gh -> 1000gh

Where as a $4000 prospero has gone from 2000gh -> 2900gh

Jimmothy, I have not bothered you or your comments on BA this entire time.  I have seen your input as valid and have even taken to heart some of the things that you have said.  And yet you come out attacking everyone no matter what.

A prospero is ~$6,000 first of all, BA is giving their "compensation" package to everyone, not just those who paid at the very first price.  Also the $5000 monarch is going from 600 GH to 1.6 TH, please understand the full package before trying to refute.
Hopefully the 2.9 TH/s will be able to be run at a home, given the high power consumption running at that level, it will be a stretch to fit one of the X-3 boxes on a circuit.
BFL is actually giving the hardware to their customers whereas I get cloud mining that I cannot even resell when it becomes (if not already shipped as) worthless.
BFL is delaying 5 weeks, BA is delaying 8 weeks.  (I understand this may change based on companies pasts, but for now that's what we have to go on, all biases aside).  I am sure I do not have to tell you how precious 3 weeks can be in the mining world, unless you are BA and do not care about your customers interests in making a profit because all you do is manufacture mining equipment.

I thought BA compensation was only for batch 1 orders.

Bfl is not delaying 5 weeks. They promised delivery of every month since november. They will not ship in 5 weeks or even 2 months.

Anyways the 250% compensation is only for the earliest orders for a monarch and comparing it to the earliest orders of a prospero it is still lacking.

My point is that because they ripped off their customers so much, they can afford to give a better compensation.

I too wish we could get double the hashrate for compensation but that would mean we would be getting hardware for around $1/gh and BA couldn't afford it. Asicminer gen3 chips alone will be $1/gh

I'm leaning more towards yes they can afford to do better than what they have put forward, although without seeing their accounting records, there's no way of knowing that, so we're both speculating.

This product is an early mover in a market without fully developed competitive forces, launched at a time of high demand.  Based on normal market theory, this is the time at which profit margins are highest.

KnC is giving equivalent hash power until their customers get a unit, and yes I know their units are more expensive.  Cointerra reportedly gave their Batch 1 customers a free extra Terraminer IV for their difficulties and have stated in clear language that if anyone wants out, they'll issue a refund.

Black Arrow is operating in the same marketplace and, while these others can take these steps we're supposed to believe BA is unable, although they are arguably operating in the most low cost manufacturing location of the three.  I simply don't believe that this is the best they can do.  It's an opinion, of course, although it's based on some knowledge of market theory and the actions of their direct competitors, which seemingly tells a different story.

 

I could be wrong, of course, but that's how I see it.

And for those who are going to say, "they aren't their competitors" or, "just cause they can do it, doesn't mean BA can" I have say, well then why can't we hold them responsible for missing their deadlines.  Everyone else's argument has been, well every other company has been late so BA can be to, well every other company can provide adequate compensation plans, why can't BA?

Just thought I should put that out there before a BA shill comes along and tries to refute.

[Pentax]

http://ecointalk.net/topic/558-refunds/

Posted 05 March 2014 - 03:59 PM
Dear customers,
 
We are not able to refund everyone that has requested this at the moment. Because of the compensation plan for batch 1 customers, and the discount given on the orders we have tight budget for the first productions. If we would refund all request immediately this would interfere with the production and we can't put the other customers at a disadvantage. The refunds will have to wait until more orders have been placed and more funds are available.  We hope you understand our situation.
 
Sincerely,
 
The Black Arrow Team
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



So those refunds are not looking so good. 

And if you've asked for refund and they can't/won't give it, your order is what?  cancelled?  in limbo?  delivered anyway? 

what a total mess. my mental running odds on actually getting one of these at all has dropped to 65%. 

[Pentax]

Black Arrow has been taking Pre Orders for like 6 months !! They have easily made millions in Pre orders by now and they don't really have shit to show for it but more CGI pictures and more Pre order deals that make them look like its such a great deal for the price per Gh/s that you get. How many Pre order batches do you need to sale befor you even deliver on the first one !! LoL

I know.  Cointerra is selling June right now and they're still showing end of April.  How that end of April date is possible for an order placed today, with the backlog of existing orders, I have no idea.

[DebitMe]

When we place a pre-order agree with the conditions and BA say very clear from the day one "whe use the money of your order to produce the miners so... no refunds" and "delays can happens" (more or less). You can ask nicely for a refund but is not your right.

wrong noob, most countries have laws that product customers from this type of scam.  (With USA and China both being one of them)  These laws state that if a product is not shipping you have the right to request and receive a refund.  The law of the land supersedes any laws put forth by companies.  Please educate yourself a little before posting nonsense.

EDIT: Dang, should have let PG field that one, would have been much more hilarious than what I just wrote.

[goozman96]

Because the database has been a gigantic pain in the ass. I have 2 programmers working on it, and if they dont have a solution by friday I will be making them do it by hand.

So will this be done manually? ETA?

Bump

Bump.

This is getting really old.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

When we place a pre-order agree with the conditions and BA say very clear from the day one "whe use the money of your order to produce the miners so... no refunds" and "delays can happens" (more or less). You can ask nicely for a refund but is not your right.

Meanwhile, BlackArrow is mining away making bank, of which it's that money they could easily refund orders with.

Question: If BlackArrow is so viable, and their product is so superb, then why so many refund requests?

Hello everybody!

We will be manufacturing Avalon clones. These are exact Avalon machines manufactured from ngzhang's manufacturing files.

It looks that we will source the Avalon chips early to mid July and should be able to ship Avalon units 7 days after we have received the ASICs. We would like to make an auction for 40 to 120 Avalon machines (65Gigahashes each).

Update 15/06/2013: After this backlash we decided to mine ourselves. Happy mining everybody!

Please bid: the amount of USD you want to pay for a 65Ghash Avalon delivered within 1 month (20-31 July 2013)

Update: Due to everybody's demand we've removed the bid limit of 99 Bitcoins. However we cannot sell under 7600USD.

Question: Who are you?
Answer: We are Black Arrow Shenzhen Information Technology, a software and hardware developing company from Shenzhen, China. For those who do not know us, we are manufacturing and have delivered several batches of Lancelot devices for Bitcoin community: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=187549.0.

Question: Is there any chance to loose my money and not get the Avalon machine?
Answer: No. Worst case scenario, you'll get your moeny back.

Questions: What if your supplier fails to give you the Avalon ASICs?
Answer: We will only spend your money if we get the chips in hand. If our supplier fails to deliver, we will return your money minus transfer fees.

Questions: What if I change my mind after you've purchased the Avalon ASICs?
Answer: We will try to sell your Avalon to other person. If we succeed, we'll return your money. If we fail, you'll have to accept your Avalon delivery as a refund will not be available.

Question: I have my own Avalon chips? Can you manufacture the Avalon for me?
Answer: Yes but we cannot give you an exact assembly price at the moment.

Question: Do you have fixed price Avalons?
Answer: We currently take pre-orders for delivery in September. The price is 7600 USD / 65Ghash Avalon. If we manage to gather orders for 40 Avalons, we'll place order for 10000 ASICs to Avalon. If we fail, we'll return your money. Once the order for ASICs is placed, you cannot cancel your order.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Well, I cancelled and got a full refund (minus 20 dollars) from Minersource, was pretty quick and painless.

Lucky for you..........

I've been dealing with Matt @ Minersource for 2.5 weeks...
Now that my order has been canceled.  Still no refund yet.

At one point, I got an email that wire is on my way (which I never received).
It was $49 off what I paid for my order.

This is exactly what I'm concerned about, cancelling but ending up with both no order spot and no money back.

bobsag3 / Matt

Please refund my money!
I just sent you another email!

Still no words/replies from Matt yet on the status of my refund.
I'm going to PM him on this forum just to make sure...........

He'll just reply with "No way, Jose!" then quote BA's stance on refunds. Remember, Matty Boy is just a vetted reseller. Correction! The first ever double-vetted Bitcoiner that was BA's first vetted reseller.

Any questions?

Q1: Yes, I have one. Who vetted him?
A1: Only John K., who's no longer around, and some new dude from Hawaii, the same state that John K. is from.
Q2: And this makes Matt viable?
A1: That and this:


Hookah. Check! Skype contacts. Check! Matt's first and second warehouse in Missouri being the same warehouse. Check!


Let's revisit Black Arrow's first trustworthy reseller, shall we?

From the desk of Bobsag3, a.k.a. Matt Carson, Black Arrow's first and #1 reseller for their miners.

<snip>

I never ended up moving to another warehouse in Rolla, just the one. We went right from small warehouse in rolla > denver warehouse in one move, early Jan.
We paid for every month, and if your in contact with who you should be to verify that kind of info, they will verify it. So yes, your blowing smoke up peoples asses.

And with that im done on the subject. I think people have seen im more than up front compared to most here- but lets stay on topic about BA, or about actual minersource orders.

Timeline of Matt Carson's datacenter locations. Originally posted in Black Arrow's self-moderated thread, but quickly deleted for being...wait for it..off-topic (and that I was trolling, so they claim). Black Arrow has proof that Matt Carson can NOT be trusted, but continue to use him as their official reseller in the US. If I were to use Tom Williams, of mybitcoin.com, as my official reseller for some product, stating that people change, would I be able to sell many product, Alex Sovu, of cardreaderfactory.com? Me, the asshole, no think so, yet...

BUILDING #1: Purchased the building, awaiting infrastructure.

Building was purchased today!
All the wiring and infrastructure equipment arrives tomorrow-Wednesday. Over 400lb. Poor UPS man

<snip>

Thanks- Ill be moving to a custom made facility here in under 3 weeks.

BUILDING #2: Moving to a better facility here (still in Missouri) located 90 miles away.

Major Update!

We will be moving to a much large, much better facility here by the end of the month. There may be a short down time (its only a 90mi drive) while being setup at the new facility, but we will not be turning anything off right up to the last minute.

Major Update!

We will be moving to a much large, much better facility here by the end of the month. There may be a short down time (its only a 90mi drive) while being setup at the new facility, but we will not be turning anything off right up to the last minute.

Building acquired

I cant answer on the software but I can on the shipping. Looks like the boards should be done here within 48 hours, and then will be dispatched after a small amount of testing to AUS, and me in the US. At least from me, all boards will then be tested again (Not sure how long... suggestions?) and then immediatly shipped out same day via UPS Next Day/2nd Day air [depending on location]. As soon as we know the boards are done, we can give  concrete delivery.

I'd sample test say 1/10th of the boards for a few hours on testnet.  That'd be my recommendation

Yeah I can do that. *might* be able to live stream, or atleast upload a ton of pictures.
I will be shipping from MO. Middle of the country, and if your anywhere close to me Im ok with local pickup .


And I just want to say guys - Barn has been working very hard behind the screens to bring this all together... this stuff is immensely complex.

Here we are, on November 18th, and Matt still has his datacenter in Missouri at the second facility:

<snip>

This is why I went from garage > warehouse > bigger warehouse. Heat is nuts.

Shenzhen, China    11/26/2013    8:05 P.M.   Departure Scan

Yea, but do the thumbs have any tracking info?  When you get the board delivery after a quick run though where are they coming from for you. I seem to expect California.

No idea on the thumbs- thats all Barn.
I will be shipping out from Central MO.

Does anyone have any details regarding power consumption. The genesis block calculator says expected power usage per unit to be 2100 watts. I am afraid for me that's not going to work. To be honest I was expecting something that would work on a residential 120v circuit. They also do not offer any hosting yet unfortunately.

I got ya covered
But yeah that is kind of silly. Im glad when I put my new facility together I decided to say fuck it and got all 240v

November 26th, edited on the 28th, Matt Carson is still in Missouri at the second facility: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=347732.msg3723600#msg3723600

bobsag3: Vetted Co-op member. World's lowest hosting fees for vetted miner hosting at a professional colocation hosting facility in Missouri!  Official Black Arrow US Reseller and US Distributor for Drillbit Systems. New Pres. of our Mining Operations arm of our LLC. Providing R19 and R19B miners to the GB Forum!

And still upgrading his second facility:

<snip>

No problem. Im having a 400A 240V pannel installed just for the 2kw+ miners that seem to be coming out.

On December 12, 2013, fresh back from China, Matt Carson posted the following... BTW, still located in Missiouri:

This makes no sense financially and if it's going to be hosted in a data center it should be using specialized GPU mining racks that can run more GPUs per motherboard/CPU.  You really need open racks and to use PCI-E riser ribbons if you want to build a GPU mining rig, using a desktop computer case makes no sense especially because heat is a huge issue with scrypt mining.  Also to be honest, scrypt mining is VERY finicky compared to SHA256 mining, you're talking about constant lockups and crashes if heat isn't perfectly controlled.  The amount of time that's going to go into keeping everything running is going to be much higher than with bitcoins and given how the Bitfury towers already caused a ton of problems I'm not sure the coop has enough manpower to keep racks of scrypt miners up and running.

The new facility comes with me also having hired 6 more people to help out. I am currently training them right now.

On December 13, Matt Carson hired additional staff to work at his Missouri-based datacenter, to date not mentioning Denver even once.

<snip>

I am working with them right now for me to help with their tickets, so we can get the response time much faster. I have hired additional staff that start work here in a few weeks, and I know they are working hard to improve their systems.

I cant speak on the refunds unfortunately, I am still discussing the options with them.

Four hours later, Matt mentions for the first the move to Denver, right after somebody ask about local pickup since he lives in KC. Did his new hires move to Denver with him?

We will offer local pickups- but we are moving to a massive new facility in CO, so pickups will have to be from there .

ALSO: I now have access to the BA ticket system, so if you need a response feel free to PM and I can at least check on the status for you.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=288012

We are all moved into the new place, lots of updates and pictures to come!

BUILDING #3:

Somewhere in Colorado.

[DebitMe]

When we place a pre-order agree with the conditions and BA say very clear from the day one "whe use the money of your order to produce the miners so... no refunds" and "delays can happens" (more or less). You can ask nicely for a refund but is not your right.

wrong noob, most countries have laws that product customers from this type of scam.  (With USA and China both being one of them)  These laws state that if a product is not shipping you have the right to request and receive a refund.  The law of the land supersedes any laws put forth by companies.  Please educate yourself a little before posting nonsense.

EDIT: Dang, should have let PG field that one, would have been much more hilarious than what I just wrote.

Correctamundo! I would have started with "Wrongamundo..." taking into consideration coolmusic's native tongue.

first of all in EU the retail stores and other sellers (for example shoping malls, department stores etc..) don't have the obligation by law to offer a refund. A lot of them offers it under different conditions  and the major part of the people thinks they have right to it but the law only says "if the item don't works, and the retailer can not replace it for the same or similar" and they don't have the obligation to refund in cash (they must advertise this in the bills, invoices and in the store before purchase).
Another question is what if they don't deliver the goods or what is a reasonable/justified delay and what not for that we have a kind of "consumer court" to place complaints and make deals and arrangements between customers and sellers. In fact few years ago I have a job in the customer service of one of the biggest retail chains of EU (like your Walmart) and I know a little bit of what I'm talking about.

We make and order thru a web page to a chinese corp. as show in my invoice (maybe in yours appears an US Corp), so im not sure if we can apply our local laws or the law of your country in these case.

Please think the world is a big place before ask someone to "educate yourself"

In one of my native languages "próspero" (Spanish) means "wealthy", I hope so.

Finally... Phinaeus come on dude, improve your life, turn off your computer, go out and get a girlfriend or something  

Not even gonna try on this one. Someone else can set you straight.

[OleOle]

That reminds me, wasn't there meant to be a PR person starting "next Tuesday"?

That seems weeks ago now.

BA can't even get the PR right about the PR person... maybe they can't even get a PR person? Who the hell would want the job anyway?

 

[notbatman]

The Black Adder Bitcoin Calculator; if money is the root of all evil then this sounds like the right machine to add it all up.

[goozman96]

I respectfully ask you to please tell us when the old database will be merged.

Thank you.

When im comfortable its ready to be. We have other website issues at the moment that have to be resolved first. The worst case senario is we have the old database loaded up into UPS worldship already so orders can be shipped on time.

[goozman96]

No problem. Could you address the other points I raised in the subsequent PMs when you have time?
Thanks

[greaterninja]

I am selling AntMiner units.  Delivery in 3-5 business days.


ninjatech.org


V/R,

GreaterNinja

[goozman96]

I am selling AntMiner units.  Delivery in 3-5 business days.


ninjatech.org


V/R,

GreaterNinja

https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=ninjatech.org
No TLS 1.2...?

[freddyfarnsworth]

I am selling AntMiner units.  Delivery in 3-5 business days.


ninjatech.org


V/R,

GreaterNinja

https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=ninjatech.org
No TLS 1.2...?

Hehe, Windows sets up v1.0 only by default. On purpose really as a lot of stuff would fail if only newer were accepted.

[OleOle]

I am selling AntMiner units.  Delivery in 3-5 business days.


ninjatech.org


V/R,

GreaterNinja

A classic spam and attempted hijack of a non-marketplace thread.

Strangely, it's probably in the public interest

[goozman96]

In case anyone here didn't see the pictures posted earlier:
https://ecointalk.net/gallery/album/13-x1-power-supply/

[goozman96]

In case anyone here didn't see the pictures posted earlier:
https://ecointalk.net/gallery/album/13-x1-power-supply/

Does the X-1 come plug and play ready to mine, or do we need to buy anything additional?

Plug and play mine.

[DebitMe]

In case anyone here didn't see the pictures posted earlier:
https://ecointalk.net/gallery/album/13-x1-power-supply/

Does the X-1 come plug and play ready to mine, or do we need to buy anything additional?

EDIT: 
Awesome. thanks man!

You have to setup a pool from wich you want to mine..

I figured that much.  i was just concerned with having to by additional things to even get started.  I am new to the asic world and as I was looking I noticed some didnt come with PSU and others you needed some extra random part like that one miner needed a PSU jumper.  If I am going to drop the money I want it to be ready to roll.

Do you mean you have to have a local stratum set up like the block erupter cube or just point it to the pool u want to mine?

These will come with PSU's built in, but you will need to plug them into your network somehow.  Depending on how many you order you may need a switch (if there are too many or you already have stuff plugged into your router's extra ports).  You will also need 1 ethernet cable for each one.