GAW / Josh Garza discussion Paycoin XPY xpy.io ION ionomy. ALWAYS MAKE MONEY :)

[suchmoon]

There was one claim made that they could be hiding money, which seems inconsistent with some of the claims that they're broke. E.g. "The company has been bleeding cash for a long time" doesn't sound like a profitable company, even if the profits are from scams.

As far as I can see you're the only one trying to spin this now into "a profitable company". They are in dire straits, even the e-mails show a ton of unpaid bills.

Someone potentially hiding cash doesn't contradict the facts pointing to GAW being broke, not sure what you're getting at here.

Do you think that nobody at GAW profited from the scam? My understanding of all of Paul's "dumping" posts was a claim that GAW's making money.

Also, Josh has said he didn't make any money (like at https://hashtalk.org/topic/33229/coinfire-article/20), and I didn't think that was true.

Should I go through the posts here and point to which ones gave the impression that GAW has money?

Oh FFS, stop that nonsense. GAW -> unpaid bills -> broke. Someone dumping XPY -> pays some of those bills perhaps -> puts some under the mattress perhaps.

What's so hard to understand?

Yes, please point out what gives the impression that GAW has money.

Specifically, every time someone posts a chart like https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=857670.msg10744869#msg10744869 and says something like "Homero & Co promptly put the BTC in their pocket." that sure sounds like they think GAW has and is making money.

If they dumped from the "97% premine", of which I've seen many people on this thread claim, then even assuming an average price of $1 it would net them $12 million. In reality the average price would be much more because they would have been selling when the price was higher. So either the people saying that the entire (or much of the) premine was being dumped are wrong, or GAW has a significant amount of money.

Plus they got money from selling hashstakers. Was there any leaked financial documents?

If unpaid bills implies being broke, then that should also imply them not being willing to dump to pay bills. The different claims going around don't seem consistent.

I even bolded the thing and you still ignored it. None of what you just posted shows that GAW has money. Some individuals might have some or a lot. Somebody might even be dumping some coins on GAW's behalf to pay some of the most important bills, like btc.com or whatever caused the HT blackout.

The average price wouldn't be even 0.01 USD if they dumped all 12 million, look at the depth. Dumping is slow for a reason.

Also look at Joe's e-mails. Giving out Prime Controllers as personal ATMs - how does that play into "GAW is making money"?

So what exactly are you trying to say, except saying that everyone else is wrong and inconsistent. What's your theory? GAW has cash and fails to pay bills for fun? GAW is not dumping but making money... how exactly?

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[suchmoon]

So your claim is that all or most of the profit is already spent. That would still point to incompetence; the scale at which they should have been making money is in the millions, which shouldn't be spent so quickly.

My point is that there should in theory be a lot of money in gaw or Josh's coffers. The people arguing think that both are near broke.

You're now just making stuff up. Who said that Josh is near broke?

Millions disappearing does not necessarily equal incompetence. Paul gave you the "e" word, look it up.

[-Redacted-]

I suspect that Mr. Ganza's statement to the effect that it doesn't matter if GAW goes bankrupt because he has plenty of money to start new businesses has disappeared down the memory hole.

[vObh0n]6W]

The idea of using anonymous wallets to siphon off profit from GAW to Homero and others involved in this scheme has been gone over many times in this thread already, and ikeboy just keeps repeating the same questions regardless of what has been discussed. And then he switches to his his other tactic of playing the "prove it" game. Evidence has been presented in great volumes. Those that have chosen to examine this evidence have mostly come to the conclusion that massive fraud has and continues to be committed by Josh & Co. This is not a courtroom, there will NEVER be what can be considered "proof" presented in an internet forum, so the "prove it" game is just another bullshit fallacy used to inject doubt about what is clearly taking place. It is like seeing a criminal pickpocketing victims day after day right in front of your apartment, and when you yell "Stop ripping people off you thief" an asshole accomplice like ikeboy appears and says" Stop slandering this poor man, there is no proof he has committed a crime". completely disregarding eye witnesses.  At this point ikeboys non stop attempts to derail this discussion and inject doubt are beyond ridiculous.

Again, I'm not arguing that gaw isn't committing fraud, so you're strawmanning my position here. You claimed I was a shill, and I asked you to prove that I wrote anything false.

Who have I stolen from? What have I done wrong? You have yet to point to a single one of my posts that represent my supposed "doubt".

There was one claim made that they could be hiding money, which seems inconsistent with some of the claims that they're broke. E.g. "The company has been bleeding cash for a long time" doesn't sound like a profitable company, even if the profits are from scams.

As far as I can see you're the only one trying to spin this now into "a profitable company". They are in dire straits, even the e-mails show a ton of unpaid bills.

Someone potentially hiding cash doesn't contradict the facts pointing to GAW being broke, not sure what you're getting at here.

Do you think that nobody at GAW profited from the scam? My understanding of all of Paul's "dumping" posts was a claim that GAW's making money.

Also, Josh has said he didn't make any money (like at https://hashtalk.org/topic/33229/coinfire-article/20), and I didn't think that was true.

Should I go through the posts here and point to which ones gave the impression that GAW has money?

Oh FFS, stop that nonsense. GAW -> unpaid bills -> broke. Someone dumping XPY -> pays some of those bills perhaps -> puts some under the mattress perhaps.

What's so hard to understand?

Yes, please point out what gives the impression that GAW has money.

Specifically, every time someone posts a chart like https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=857670.msg10744869#msg10744869 and says something like "Homero & Co promptly put the BTC in their pocket." that sure sounds like they think GAW has and is making money.

If they dumped from the "97% premine", of which I've seen many people on this thread claim, then even assuming an average price of $1 it would net them $12 million. In reality the average price would be much more because they would have been selling when the price was higher. So either the people saying that the entire (or much of the) premine was being dumped are wrong, or GAW has a significant amount of money.

Plus they got money from selling hashstakers. Was there any leaked financial documents?

If unpaid bills implies being broke, then that should also imply them not being willing to dump to pay bills. The different claims going around don't seem consistent.

I even bolded the thing and you still ignored it. None of what you just posted shows that GAW has money. Some individuals might have some or a lot. Somebody might even be dumping some coins on GAW's behalf to pay some of the most important bills, like btc.com or whatever caused the HT blackout.

The average price wouldn't be even 0.01 USD if they dumped all 12 million, look at the depth. Dumping is slow for a reason.

Also look at Joe's e-mails. Giving out Prime Controllers as personal ATMs - how does that play into "GAW is making money"?

So what exactly are you trying to say, except saying that everyone else is wrong and inconsistent. What's your theory? GAW has cash and fails to pay bills for fun? GAW is not dumping but making money... how exactly?

I don't have a consistent theory. I'm trying to point out the inconsistencies with the dominant theories here in the hopes that someone can fix it. Do you consider your current theory consistent?

So your claim is that all or most of the profit is already spent. That would still point to incompetence; the scale at which they should have been making money is in the millions, which shouldn't be spent so quickly.

My point is that there should in theory be a lot of money in gaw or Josh's coffers. The people arguing think that both are near broke.

You're now just making stuff up. Who said that Josh is near broke?

Millions disappearing does not necessarily equal incompetence. Paul gave you the "e" word, look it up.

This is my understanding of their position. It's a little hard to understand properly when half of someone's posts are insults.

"Who said that Josh is near broke?"

Actually the person I responded to seemed to say that "Money flowed into Josh's pockets. Money flowed out of Josh's pockets. Livin' large ain't cheap."

That seemed a clear claim that Josh doesn't have much money anymore.




If the company didn't bring in money, then there isn't any money to "embezzle". So if someone was able to take millions out GAW, that means GAW made millions, which would make them profitable.

I suspect that Mr. Ganza's statement to the effect that it doesn't matter if GAW goes bankrupt because he has plenty of money to start new businesses has disappeared down the memory hole.

I don't remember the exact wording of that but he definitely claimed to have a lot of money from selling his previous businesses.

[bananafana]

So your claim is that all or most of the profit is already spent. That would still point to incompetence; the scale at which they should have been making money is in the millions, which shouldn't be spent so quickly.

No, that's not my claim. My point is that what you're saying makes no sense. In another comment you assume that these millions would come from selling premined coins, and you come up with twelve million dollars somehow there ... which is just nuts. Josh doesn't have the entire premine of twelve million coins. Even if he did the blockchain doesn't show anywhere near that many being dumped. Nor would the market depth allow selling anywhere near that volume.

But yeah, unpaid bills do point to incompetence.

My point is that there should in theory be a lot of money in gaw or Josh's coffers. The people arguing think that both are near broke.

Unpaid bills are suggestive of financial distress. That would be about GAW, the company.

Josh might personally have a lot of money. Or it might have all gone to Ferrari leases and private jets and whatever and he might be hounded by debt collection agencies. I don't have any way of knowing. If he held onto some of the money, and fraud is proven in court, you might get some money back that way but don't count on it.

[HashieNewb]

I suspect that Mr. Ganza's statement to the effect that it doesn't matter if GAW goes bankrupt because he has plenty of money to start new businesses has disappeared down the memory hole.

true, he seems to have handed the corpse of paycoin to teamxpy and is now moving on to his next "always make money" scheme

[rawbot]

I have read so much deliberate (and cunning) obfuscation on the last one page alone from vObh0n]6W that I have ignored him. And if he is the same person as the already banned "IKEBOY" then why aren't mods doing their jobs and removing this twat?

[FUBAR-BDHR]

rolling the scam back into cloud mining is hysterical.

As to the previous derail about GAW being broke, I dont' see how. What are their expenses? Not paying bills and being broke are not the same thing.

million bucks for btc.com for one

The million bucks was done in payments, and those almost already stopped once, and can easily stop when they need to.

Their income was selling things that don't exist, dumping paycoins, and will be walking with all the coins left in paybase (and probably the other exchange) when the time comes. There isn't much income, but they don't need any, because they have no business. All the money given to them will eventually filter to the employees, which is the whole point.

i dont think there was ever proof of 1m. We only saw record of 25k installments

http://www.coindesk.com/btc-com-domain-sold-gawminers-record/
http://techcrunch.com/2014/08/08/an-interview-with-josh-garza-ceo-of-gaw-miners-on-his-1-million-purchase-of-btc-com/
https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-domain-btc-com-acquired-1-1-million-usd-josh-garza-gawminers/
http://coinbrief.net/btc-com-josh-garza-gaw-miners/

How many more do you need for proof?  Just google GAW buys btc.com

[bananafana]

Actually the person I responded to seemed to say that "Money flowed into Josh's pockets. Money flowed out of Josh's pockets. Livin' large ain't cheap."

That seemed a clear claim that Josh doesn't have much money anymore.

No, my point is that your "argument" looks at the money flowing in, but not the money flowing out. Lots of money flowed into GAW. But lots of money flowed out. Payroll, buying btc.com. Big money flowing in, big money flowing out. Unpaid bills suggest that it flowed out faster than it flowed in.

Josh personally may have had millions flow into his pockets, but Ferraris and private jets and trips to Europe will chew up money pretty fast. That doesn't mean he doesn't still have money. He could be worth millions, he could be bankrupt.

I'm going to ignore you now, until you manage to say something coherent.

[Paul Revere]

This whole GAW/Paycoin fraud operation mirrors what was done by the Railroad Robber Barons in the 1800's. Today there is the new tool for committing fraud: Crytpo Currency, which bypasses some of the methods used then that have since come under more and more regulation, although fraud schemes like Enron prove that the old methods can still be used. If you substitute ICO for the ISO of a speculative railroad company things fit quite nicely. Back then the (mostly) unregulated "funny money" of the day was stock. Now it is Crypto Currency. The same methods were used to sucker investors in to buying shares (coins) which will "moon" soon, and similar things are done to manipulate the price of coins as was done to stock values. Railroads were ideal for this because delays in construction, government approvals, or service interruptions could be controlled or predicted by those in charge of the company. And, just as we see with GAW/Paycoin, investors can be strung along easily by saying "there was problem X, but we are fixing it soon" and promising everything and delivering nothing.

A good tool to learn about Robber Baron methods is the Railroad Tycoon 3 game. When I first started playing that game I followed the guidelines in the manual, but gradually started seeing the ways to create secondary companies, make them as profitable as possible, and then monkey wrench the company right after selling off all stock. Then, after the stock plummets to nothing you can pick up most or all of the shares (and assets of the company) for next to nothing and either fix the company and make it profitable again or better yet pump the share price and then buy it out at an outrageous stock price using your principal company, thereby putting corporate funds directly into your personal wallet. This is most likely similar to what was done with the majority of funds in the GAW coffers during the "$20 floor attempt". If ikeboy (or anyone) really is at a complete loss as to how and why corporations are used to funnel money into your personal bank account RRT3 can demonstrate it. There is a quote from one of the Railroad Robber Barons (Gould?) that goes something like (sic)" Most people think that a Railroad is something that hauls goods and passengers. They are wrong. A Railroad is a device used to put investors money in my bank account".

[vObh0n]6W]

So your claim is that all or most of the profit is already spent. That would still point to incompetence; the scale at which they should have been making money is in the millions, which shouldn't be spent so quickly.

No, that's not my claim. My point is that what you're saying makes no sense. In another comment you assume that these millions would come from selling premined coins, and you come up with twelve million dollars somehow there ... which is just nuts. Josh doesn't have the entire premine of twelve million coins. Even if he did the blockchain doesn't show anywhere near that many being dumped. Nor would the market depth allow selling anywhere near that volume.

But yeah, unpaid bills do point to incompetence.

I wasn't making that assumption, I was repeating what other people claimed. I've seen several people say "oh, gaw is obviously dumping their 97% premine", glossing over the fact that much of the premine went to hashpoint investors. I agree it's nuts, but it's what people are actually saying. How much volume could have been dumped? I've still to see anyone try to give an actual answer for that; the furthest people go is "look at these coins transferred to exchanges, plus this sell wall!"

My point is that there should in theory be a lot of money in gaw or Josh's coffers. The people arguing think that both are near broke.

Unpaid bills are suggestive of financial distress. That would be about GAW, the company.

Josh might personally have a lot of money. Or it might have all gone to Ferrari leases and private jets and whatever and he might be hounded by debt collection agencies. I don't have any way of knowing. If he held onto some of the money, and fraud is proven in court, you might get some money back that way but don't count on it.

If a lot of money was pulled out of the company as people are claiming, then that does seem inconsistent with the unpaid bills stuff. There's evidence pointing in a few different directions, as I've said I don't see any consistent theory that would explain both a motive for fraud and the stuff pointing to not having money.

I have read so much deliberate (and cunning) obfuscation on the last one page alone from vObh0n]6W that I have ignored him. And if he is the same person as the already banned "IKEBOY" then why aren't mods doing their jobs and removing this twat?

Well you won't see this then, but could someone who does explain which part of what I posted is "obfuscation"? I'm getting a lot of personal attacks, what have I posted that's incorrect or misleading? I'm happy to change anything that's wrong if someone wants to point it out to me.

[Cash BTC]

This is most likely similar to what was done with the majority of funds in the GAW coffers during the "$20 floor attempt".

That was even smarter:

• they make us mining for them for 2 months keeping all our BTC profits
• Then selling one PayCoin to $20 dollars to show everybody what the coin can achieve.
• Then dump all of their coins (that we mined for them) for nearly $20 in the market.

If that is not genius I don't know what it is.

[suchmoon]

If a lot of money was pulled out of the company as people are claiming, then that does seem inconsistent with the unpaid bills stuff. There's evidence pointing in a few different directions, as I've said I don't see any consistent theory that would explain both a motive for fraud and the stuff pointing to not having money.

[...]

Well you won't see this then, but could someone who does explain which part of what I posted is "obfuscation"? I'm getting a lot of personal attacks, what have I posted that's incorrect or misleading? I'm happy to change anything that's wrong if someone wants to point it out to me.

Like the bolded part for example.

And in general, stop twisting everyone's words, USE YOUR OWN. Post what YOU think is happening, not your interpretations (mostly wrong) of other people's posts. There are facts, there are gaps, why does it bother you so much how the gaps are filled in?

[vObh0n]6W]

Actually the person I responded to seemed to say that "Money flowed into Josh's pockets. Money flowed out of Josh's pockets. Livin' large ain't cheap."

That seemed a clear claim that Josh doesn't have much money anymore.

No, my point is that your "argument" looks at the money flowing in, but not the money flowing out. Lots of money flowed into GAW. But lots of money flowed out. Payroll, buying btc.com. Big money flowing in, big money flowing out. Unpaid bills suggest that it flowed out faster than it flowed in.

Josh personally may have had millions flow into his pockets, but Ferraris and private jets and trips to Europe will chew up money pretty fast. That doesn't mean he doesn't still have money. He could be worth millions, he could be bankrupt.

I'm going to ignore you now, until you manage to say something coherent.

Fair point. btc.com was bought before paycoin started, so I don't think we can draw lines that way. Payroll: say around twenty people for a few months (say last 4 months since paycoin and hashstaker, so take a third of a years salary). A quick search shows an average $80,000 for programmers, let's round up to $90,000, divide by three to get $30,000 times 20 people is $600,000. That seems not enough to eat up all the money coming in.

It's possible that Josh spent it all, but that doesn't make a lot of sense, at least to me. I agree with you that we don't know how much money he has. I'm not trying to state definite claims about their finances, I'm trying to claim and argue that the theories put forward here aren't consistent on that point. The unpaid bills do imply that they don't have money, but I'm still finding it hard to see how so much money could have been spent. It could have been embezzled away to Josh's accounts, but then why wouldn't he at least pay the small bills?

If a lot of money was pulled out of the company as people are claiming, then that does seem inconsistent with the unpaid bills stuff. There's evidence pointing in a few different directions, as I've said I don't see any consistent theory that would explain both a motive for fraud and the stuff pointing to not having money.

[...]

Well you won't see this then, but could someone who does explain which part of what I posted is "obfuscation"? I'm getting a lot of personal attacks, what have I posted that's incorrect or misleading? I'm happy to change anything that's wrong if someone wants to point it out to me.

Like the bolded part for example.

I said that it doesn't make a lot of sense for the company to make a lot of money, Josh to pull it out, but not pay bills. Do you disagree, or is the problem the way I worded it?

And in general, stop twisting everyone's words, USE YOUR OWN. Post what YOU think is happening, not your interpretations (mostly wrong) of other people's posts. There are facts, there are gaps, why does it bother you so much how the gaps are filled in?

If my interpretations of other posts are wrong (which is possible), I'd like for them to clarify. I often include a question about what was meant, but rarely get a response other than a personal attack. And then my posts are heavily misinterpreted, and I do try to clarify.

"why does it bother you so much how the gaps are filled in?"

I want to know what's going on, and I'm not happy when parts of a theory don't make sense.

[bitpop]

Anyway, what are the gawtards waiting for now? Their premier accounts still so they can give homero more money?

[SDRebel]

There is one user stating that they spent 100K on his CC on this shit, I suggested that he tries to charge back if not to late, others are telling him to hold on. You have to be kidding me, the user states that his family will be ruined and the paid shills say hang on. This is actually sad and I have always said I can imagine someone killing themselves as they got in to deep.

What's the username? Let me also try to convince him

Unreal.  I should be sympathetic but if this douchebag is willing to gamble his family's future on the word of Homero Ganza, he does not deserve that family.

Still, a 100k USD chargeback just hurts GAW that much more and I hate to see his wife and kids have their lives destroyed so I hope someone can talk some sense into him.

Let's be realistic about chargebacks. GAW's merchant accounts are likely closed long ago. Their bank and/or payment processor are going to hold the bag on those. The only good thing that I can imagine coming out of this - if there is a large amount of chargebacks (likely) then the bank might be pissed enough to go after GAW and its principals in a major legal way (as in with real lawyers, not just some collection agency).

It makes a lot more sense now that everything is clear.  The period of time mining hashpoints delayed things long enough to avoid a chargeback

i do believe so too. Most people though, have received ppsitive responses from discover. MC and Visa have denied most of them from what i have heard.

[SDRebel]

Anyway, what are the gawtards waiting for now? Their premier accounts still so they can give homero more money?

they are waiting for some f*ing great that they know is coming but nobody knows anything. .bunch of morons

[bitpop]

Anyway, what are the gawtards waiting for now? Their premier accounts still so they can give homero more money?

they are waiting for some f*ing great that they know is coming but nobody knows anything. .bunch of morons

Xpy space program lol

SpaceCoin with a $20 floor

[Shadowht]

LaVerdad seems like hes trying to rope joe into all this even tho hes long gone? hmmm seems like misdirection

lolz, know whats even more interesting than garbage between joe and josh? little miss peppermint

https://www.anonimg.com/img/dabfb2d6f14a1f18f1b5278fb95c7ce9.jpg

not sure how you all missed that one in the google groups bonanza... theres a few like that

as homero would say, muaaaaahhhhhhhhh (grinning)


http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/the_startup_blog/assets_c/2014/02/a78ae76da19c1a0f9e0e9b2f7e6229e70bd36cf7bc5b2f29b5f8900face50234%5B1%5D-thumb-autox384-6965.jpg

i cant believe it is her haahhaha
is there any more pics?

[SDRebel]

rolling the scam back into cloud mining is hysterical.

As to the previous derail about GAW being broke, I dont' see how. What are their expenses? Not paying bills and being broke are not the same thing.

million bucks for btc.com for one

The million bucks was done in payments, and those almost already stopped once, and can easily stop when they need to.

Their income was selling things that don't exist, dumping paycoins, and will be walking with all the coins left in paybase (and probably the other exchange) when the time comes. There isn't much income, but they don't need any, because they have no business. All the money given to them will eventually filter to the employees, which is the whole point.

i dont think there was ever proof of 1m. We only saw record of 25k installments

http://www.coindesk.com/btc-com-domain-sold-gawminers-record/
http://techcrunch.com/2014/08/08/an-interview-with-josh-garza-ceo-of-gaw-miners-on-his-1-million-purchase-of-btc-com/
https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-domain-btc-com-acquired-1-1-million-usd-josh-garza-gawminers/
http://coinbrief.net/btc-com-josh-garza-gaw-miners/

How many more do you need for proof?  Just google GAW buys btc.com

that's 0 proof.  It's equivalent to him saying he paid 8M for Zen, Eric told us that is not true. A press release is not proof of anything