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Author Topic: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network  (Read 281741 times)
kjn311
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February 15, 2017, 07:00:40 PM
 #1621

Tau needs a use case and just market that. Ethereum use case was smart contracts. To me, Tau "main" use case is Artificial Intelligence. Market AI when talking about Tau. Maybe even change the name to something cool and robotic like "Skynet".  Grin

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February 15, 2017, 07:03:44 PM
 #1622

Tau needs a use case and just market that. Ethereum use case was smart contracts. To me, Tau "main" use case is Artificial Intelligence. Market AI when talking about Tau. Maybe even change the name to something cool and robotic like "Skynet".  Grin

indeed an important motivation of tau, is to bring the power of AI to everyone altogether (and by everyone altogether), rather to be held by centralized entities

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February 15, 2017, 07:17:31 PM
 #1623

Tau needs a use case and just market that. Ethereum use case was smart contracts. To me, Tau "main" use case is Artificial Intelligence. Market AI when talking about Tau. Maybe even change the name to something cool and robotic like "Skynet".  Grin

indeed an important motivation of tau, is to bring the power of AI to everyone altogether (and by everyone altogether), rather to be held by centralized entities

In my humble opinion, it should be majority focused on AI and ideas like the Internet of Things. Right now I think the concept is so abstract that people don't really grasp what this is. Yea it can be alot of things but I want to hear about cool decentralized terminator robots.

Just tell me you are building Skynet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skynet_(Terminator)

Thanks for all your hard work.

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February 15, 2017, 07:38:13 PM
 #1624

Just tell me you are building Skynet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skynet_(Terminator)

Quote
Skynet is a fictional neural net-based conscious group mind and artificial general intelligence (see also superintelligence) system

tau is not neural net. we'll reach skynet once we implement a neural net over tau (easy) and train it (hard).
the direct training of tau is not by machine learning methods but more like "rule based AI" methods

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February 15, 2017, 07:53:03 PM
 #1625

Just tell me you are building Skynet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skynet_(Terminator)

Quote
Skynet is a fictional neural net-based conscious group mind and artificial general intelligence (see also superintelligence) system

tau is not neural net. we'll reach skynet once we implement a neural net over tau (easy) and train it (hard).
the direct training of tau is not by machine learning methods but more like "rule based AI" methods

Last question and I'm sure many here would like to hear the answer to...I believe I heard this in a podcast...

I can use Bitcoin over Tau?

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February 15, 2017, 07:54:14 PM
 #1626

I can use Bitcoin over Tau?

of course. but not over the first alpha, which will support theories in more general fashion, but not support "processes" yet. the next alphas will deal with such transition, generalizing knowledge to programs. we're able to do so thanks to releasing ourselves from the curry-howard approach.

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February 15, 2017, 09:13:50 PM
 #1627

Tau needs a use case and just market that. Ethereum use case was smart contracts. To me, Tau "main" use case is Artificial Intelligence. Market AI when talking about Tau. Maybe even change the name to something cool and robotic like "Skynet".  Grin

indeed an important motivation of tau, is to bring the power of AI to everyone altogether (and by everyone altogether), rather to be held by centralized entities

Decentralized AI it's the whole different story! Skynet has some bad connotations though Wink
In my opinion, right branding and marketing it's very important, maybe even the most important part. No doubt, tau needs the right story that can spread the idea, story that solves needs or wants of people. Most of the crypto projects today are not even close to the ideas of tau but with the right marketing some of them succeed in wrapping it in a very desirable package, the result of it is attention and investments.
In case of tau that could be 100% authentic story because the value that tau can give to the world is truly game changing.


Quote
tau is not neural net. we'll reach skynet once we implement a neural net over tau (easy) and train it (hard).
the direct training of tau is not by machine learning methods but more like "rule based AI" methods

Quote
we will have an intelligent social network for not only serious stuff, but also for fun.

Is this to quotes can be combined? Decentralized AI that we going to train all together in a kind of game?
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February 15, 2017, 10:17:40 PM
 #1628

Quote
tau is not neural net. we'll reach skynet once we implement a neural net over tau (easy) and train it (hard).
the direct training of tau is not by machine learning methods but more like "rule based AI" methods

Quote
we will have an intelligent social network for not only serious stuff, but also for fun.

Is this to quotes can be combined? Decentralized AI that we going to train all together in a kind of game?

you're getting there.. not fully though, here Wink

every team will "train" (collaboratively and comuter-aided-ly build a theory) their own project.
in parallel to that, every person/profile will have their own theory, perspective, built from their own sources, and by agreeing/disagreeing to others, etc.
add to that the special root team, which defines the system itself.
then we can use the machine to query theories, or prove assertions, or discover new knowledge, or check consistency, or calculate the consensus, or synthesize a model/program that admits a theory/spec...

can ask the following question:
how can one make sense of thousands of people giving advice on how to build a specific software?
tau is all about that.

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February 15, 2017, 10:30:46 PM
 #1629

TAUCHAIN -  the power of AI to everyone altogether (and by everyone altogether), rather to be held by centralized entities
Sounds really great, this sentence is Amazing Ohad. Explain tauchain shortly and powerfully

10 points for you
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February 15, 2017, 11:11:34 PM
 #1630

Quote
tau is not neural net. we'll reach skynet once we implement a neural net over tau (easy) and train it (hard).
the direct training of tau is not by machine learning methods but more like "rule based AI" methods

Quote
we will have an intelligent social network for not only serious stuff, but also for fun.

Is this to quotes can be combined? Decentralized AI that we going to train all together in a kind of game?

you're getting there.. not fully though, here Wink

Finally I am getting somewhere, and I am not the laziest one... , some could give up Smiley

Quote
every team will "train" (collaboratively and comuter-aided-ly build a theory) their own project.
in parallel to that, every person/profile will have their own theory, perspective, built from their own sources, and by agreeing/disagreeing to others, etc.
add to that the special root team, which defines the system itself.
then we can use the machine to query theories, or prove assertions, or discover new knowledge, or check consistency, or calculate the consensus, or synthesize a model/program that admits a theory/spec...

can ask the following question:
how can one make sense of thousands of people giving advice on how to build a specific software?
tau is all about that.

Hmm... Can't even imagine where it can get us. It's like with the time bringing all the world's knowledge in one place and having power and abilities to properly sort it, operate it and constantly grow and improve it.  Is it something that already tested? Can you estimate when the first code will be ready?

The idea is amazing, and clearer now. thank you Ohad for your efforts!!!
ohad
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February 16, 2017, 05:45:23 AM
 #1631

Is it something that already tested?

there are some similar concepts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_social_network
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Semantic_Web
(they're more like the first alpha, nothing like the next alphas)

but i didn't find anywhere (not even in game theory yet) something about collaborative theory formation (in contrast to numerical rather logical data. and in contrast to players each with their own preferences and score. here we're about groups of people each having more or less shared goal, and a logic-consensus driven process. even nomic is not about how to build a theory, but about how to build the game itself). seems like we're establishing a new field here.

Quote
Can you estimate when the first code will be ready?

very hard to estimate. at least for me. i must admit that part of the delay is due to new ideas that don't stop coming. a recent one was to convert your theory to a wiki, so you could browse the encyclopedia of your own worldview. or let others browse it. (or compare it with another one's, for the sake of partnership, or dating, or common interest.. but that's an old idea, the new idea is the wiki format). and obv most of the time i think of the math aspects of this all which are nontrivial. especially how to write a scalable solver

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February 16, 2017, 04:33:45 PM
 #1632

How do you secure the network without a native coin? The thing about Ethereum and Bitcoin is it cost large sums of money to attack.

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February 16, 2017, 04:55:35 PM
 #1633

How do you secure the network without a native coin? The thing about Ethereum and Bitcoin is it cost large sums of money to attack.

forming the blocks will begin centralized so no problem for the beginning.
moreover, many of the network's features, will not require blockchain at all (anything that doesn't care which rule came first).
in the process of forming the decentralized version using the centralized one, we'll have to consider mining reward. the amount of miners we'll need will be more or less proportional to the cap we intend to support. i mentioned few times that i'm for "miners tax", but that's my personal opinion on an issue to be agreed collaboratively.

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February 20, 2017, 03:41:21 PM
 #1634

Really interesting interview of Arthur Breitman, the lead developer of Tezos.
Tezos is one big leap forward in the direction of Tau. It has a lot of common points with Tau. For instance, the protocol is self amending following a very similar process to Tau that is also inspired by the nomic game. Nomic is actually being discussed in the interview. Another important similarity is the use of a custom functional language practical enough to develop with and that comes with built-in formal verification capabilities, the goal being to ship code with a mathematical proof of its properties. Another very similar aspect and that is beautifully well explained in the interview is that blockchain networks are essentially all following the same protocol at a very high level, when you abstract specific details like the exact nature of the state that is being validated, and the exact way that the canonical version is being discriminated, blockchains are essentially all doing the same thing, so Tezos is coming with built-ins that can handle all the low level stuff like i/os as well as generic blockchain mechanics, and all the specific blockchain rules are left for the users to decide in the genesis block (they call it "seed protocol") and subsequent protocol amendments. This allows Tezos to implement Bitcoin, Ethereum and any other blockchain. Even the idea of writing program specifications as a set of constraints and letting the compiler come up with an implementation that is guaranteed to meet the constraints is addressed. A last thing: Breitman alludes at some point to the fact Ethereum is doing a mistake by attempting to be a "universal computer" that can compute everything, and explains that a blockchain network doesn't need full spectrum computation and that a subset of what Ethereum can do is sufficient. Although he doesn't point specifically to concepts such as turing completeness and decidability, and doesn't state where Tezos stands on that aspect, it sure seems like he is referring to that but keeping things simple to avoid perplexing the non-technical audience. Is Tezos decidable too?

Now, that makes a hell lot of common points with Tau, doesn't it? And they are planning to release this year!
Ohad, are you following Tezos closely enough? What's your take on their technology?
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February 20, 2017, 03:58:11 PM
 #1635

Actually they already have a functional system and released their code of Github. Arthur Breitman  started a thread here earlier this month and it seems that they are looking at doing a crowdsale in Q1 or Q2, so pretty soon. Let's ask him directly if Tezos is decidable Smiley
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February 20, 2017, 04:57:03 PM
 #1636

it is indeed a decent project, i saw him speaking several months ago and was impressed. it might be the only thing out there that is close to tau. that said, there's still a big gap. i'd ask two things before decidability: expressibility, and which parts of the system are amendable (is it the whole code no matter what?). and that, taking into account the old tau. the new tau refines the process much more than nomic.

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February 20, 2017, 05:45:27 PM
 #1637

two more points:
1. need to understand what they mean by "ledger" and in what it's different than "generic knowledge". EDIT: indeed they seem to focus on contracts
2. ocaml impl?! ... the easy but eventually-useless way? Smiley

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February 20, 2017, 05:52:50 PM
 #1638

.. and after listening to the interview:
he says that people will prepare their proposals and then by some vote (60%) they'll decide which proposal to accept.
my bigger question is, and is a question "against" the old tau as well, and "against" nomic:
how do you expect people to form well-formed proposals, that actually express what they meant and so on?
do you expect this to be an individual process for experts?
on the new tau we consider this a collaborative process for non-experts, the process of forming a proposal, aside the process of accepting it.

a smaller point would be regarding votes. once you take a close look, you don't need them anymore Smiley

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February 20, 2017, 06:14:34 PM
 #1639

two relevant links:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=950309.msg14904326#msg14904326
https://steemit.com/crypto-news/@dana-edwards/tezos-the-generic-self-amending-crypto-ledger (see also comments)

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February 20, 2017, 06:59:13 PM
 #1640

It might be the only thing out there that is close to tau.

Well, now there is also Autonomic Smiley

that said, there's still a big gap.
I agree. Although there is quite a bit of overlap on the fundamentals, Tezos seems to be specifically aiming at protocol governance, whereas Tau is both much more general in scope and closer to the metal due to the versatility of its RDF syntax which gives it the ability to blend naturally with semantic structure of which it is only a flavor. I think we can probably learn a lot from the launch of Tezos, their approach, their mistakes, and how things pan out with the nomic game.

i'd ask two things before decidability: expressibility,
I asked that already

and which parts of the system are amendable (is it the whole code no matter what?).
In the EpiCenter interview, he talks about layers, of which only the topmost layer that contains functional rules about the way the blockchain is working and the business logic would be self-amending, which includes consensus rules and voting. Based on that, I think all of the lower level stuff like network communication, overlay network management, DHT etc are hard coded and evolve following a regular software life cycle. This is actually made more explicit later in the interview where Arthur Breitman explains that only changes that involve governance issues are really controversial and subject to on-chain consensus, whereas more technical issues such as bug fixes are following the normal software life cycle and adopted following the normal soft/hard fork rules as people update their clients.

1. need to understand what they mean by "ledger" and in what it's different than "generic knowledge"
probably ledger = blockchain, generic knowledge = whatever state the blockchain is used to maintain?
Can you provide the context?


2. ocaml impl?! ... the easy but eventually-useless way? Smiley
He mentioned in the interview that he was inspired by Coq for the formal verification. Coq is written in OCaml so going with OCaml would probably have saved quite a bit of time. I can't find back the detailed team page of Tezos, but if I remember well there were some people from Inria, so that would also explain why they went for OCaml.

Just noticed that Andrew Miller is an advisor of the project. Wasn't he also following Tau? And there is Zooko too! What a small world. I wonder if HMC knows the tezos guys.
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