So last week I deposited about $1000 in bitfloor and hadn't even yet made a single trade with it. While it was extra savings money and I can survive without it, I am quite upset about not being able to pull my money out....
BF was my primary source of USD=>BTC so I feel your pain. It very well could have been me so I feel your pain... esp with the price I would not have bought now so I narrowly missed the trap on this one. Sorry  |
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Holding our USD without our consent is illegal. BitFloor must start accepting and processing USD withdrawals ASAP.
Unfortunately for those of us who had significant USD balances at Bitfloor, what others are saying is correct: Roman must now cease all activity — even activity that many of us would consider "the right thing to do" — and seek legal counsel. Assuming everything is handled sanely in the court system (a big assumption), we might expect a refund of our USD balances in a few months — either all or in part, depending on whether the balances were legally segregated and allocated, which I doubt they were. Wrong. Presumption of ownership goes to the segregated account holders. BitFloor will be sued successfully for holding USD without their OWNER'S consent, unless there is a clause in the TOS stating that any USD deposited into BitFloor automatically becomes part of a single pool of assets with shared liability. If the communist scumbag Corzine supporters wish to claw back USD that never belonged to them, they are welcome to try AFTER the rightful owners get paid, not before. I understand your frustration, but your anger will not help anything here. |
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So they profited from a scam by backing it and there not scammers  If they knew it was a scam then yes they are scammers. However I personally know of someone who sold coins (interest) from BTCST for months on -otc. He was not big time, nor do I believe he knew that it was a scam; however it most certainly profited. Should he be tagged as a scammer? I am just saying that just because they got fooled isn't enough for a tag. Now if it can be proven that pirate told them "Hey.. talk me up on the forums and I will give you an extra % per week" then maybe. As JoelKatz said (i think) the horrible thing about situations like this is that the waters become so gray and it can become impossible to tell who the real crooks are and who was just $-$. |
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This is a good point... that is a major reason I invested. PH, BurtW, etc.... all long time members gave me ease.
IE I'm a dumbass and like to blame others after the fact. If you didn't see through 7%/week, well there's no other explanation. Who is blaming others? I have said multiple times before that if pirate runs it is my own fault. I was saying that P4 had a very good point, where do you fit in? You are. Check the bold. And when I call you out on your passive aggressive bullshit you backpedal. Don't say stuff like what I bolded unless you will stick to it. I fit in as the guy warning you months ago pirate was a scam. Now I fit in in laughing at the idiots that "invested" in him. Well thank you for mis-interpreting my words. If that is how I came across it is 100% wrong. PH or BurtW never told me what to do, it was my own free will and thinking. That is like blaming singers because some kid shot up the school. I looked over the available information (ignoring the attention whores) and made a calculated risk. I didn't risk more than I could afford to lose and while I am not happy, I am in no way in a position like many others here. |
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This is a good point... that is a major reason I invested. PH, BurtW, etc.... all long time members gave me ease.
Which is why I think its so important there is at least some accountability for their fierce support for pirate. Its not revenge or to start a witch hunt or whatever, its to make sure everyone knows there are consequences to giving undue credibility. Labelling them as scammer would likely be considered too harsh by many, but if I where Theymos I would give them all a signature that says "Im either incredibly gullible or a crook. Dont ever take investment advice from me" or something along those lines. I very much disagree with this, unless of course it can be proven they *knew* it was a fraud up front, besides you can't discriminate. I think what needs to happen is some form of actual knowledge (not sure how to implement that) transfer rather than bantering back and forth. Just facts, here is what happened etc. |
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This is a good point... that is a major reason I invested. PH, BurtW, etc.... all long time members gave me ease.
IE I'm a dumbass and like to blame others after the fact. If you didn't see through 7%/week, well there's no other explanation. Who is blaming others? I have said multiple times before that if pirate runs it is my own fault. I was saying that P4 had a very good point, where do you fit in? |
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#2 - This is *exactly* my point of things that just don't 'add up'. If I were pirate AND I were running a ponzi then I would not want PPTs for exactly the reason you stated. It just doesn't make sense.
Oh yes you do. You give them crumbs, in return they give you credibility and a large inflow of btc's. If it werent for the Pirate Ponzi Team cheerleaders and the trust they enjoyed in the community, Im pretty sure the scheme would have collapsed ages ago. But if a dozen well known and generally respected "hero members"/VIPS etc pretend to know things you dont know, appear willing to swear on their mothers grave Pirate is the real deal, well, it makes even the most level headed guy wonder. This is a good point... that is a major reason I invested. PH, BurtW, etc.... all long time members gave me ease. |
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Anyone else just get their invite?
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Thank you for allowing ACH withdrawals.
Could you please allow trading to resume? Then the people who really want to get out will be able to sell their bitcoins (for a fraction of their price outside of bitfloor). And people who are speculating that things will turn out will be able to buy up those bitcoins and potentially make money.
I think this will reduce the amount of customer discontent.
The problem with this is that there isn't enough coins to cover all (any?) withdrawal requests. |
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With all due respect to the victims in this hacking, whoever they'll end up being, I am suspicious of hacking claims where the announcement of the hack includes a factual assertion of how the hack took place, e.g. "we used encryption but they found our forgotten unencrypted backup". How does one come to know with certainty that this is actually what happened? Seriously, I'd expect to see "we don't know how they got our funds, but clearly they did, we can think of n possible ways they did it so far, including this forgotten backup, and we'll let you know more when we find out".
This is the most information I have at the moment. There are only a number of places/files on the disk that would have provided the attacker the keys so narrowing this down to a few possibilities was not impractical. Not knowing your current security procedures how can you rule out a compromise of your personal PCs? |
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Replace word "bitcoins" by "potatoes" and any judge will figure out on the spot what to do.
Potatoes aren't a digital construct thinly traded only on unregulated exchanges. I do agree that Bitcoin will need to be regulated eventually. It simply can't co-exist with fiat currencies without definition. However that day isn't today. Of course. However, potatoes have value, they can be stolen too. Imagine a commodity exchange where you can deposit bags of potatoes that you and other customers have "farmed". Those potatoes can be sent to the exchange as well as fiat money (legal tender btw). Someone have stolen all the potatoes, exchange goes BK... Effectively a judge has only two choices: 1. Distribute all fiat back to depositors and leave potato sellers to hold the bag (an empty potato bag no less). 2. Value all the lost potato deposits in fiat, distribute whatever fiat left proportionally. I bet it will be 2. * ErebusBat steals the idea and runs off to create Potatoe-ville for facebook. |
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shtylman, where physically are you for service of process?
https://bitfloor.com/aboutMailing Address
Bitfloor Inc.
27-29 W 60th St. #21053
New York, NY 10023
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New withdrawals are currently on hold while I work through the future of the exchange.
That is unacceptable. Regardless of the future of the exchange you have an obligation to disburse funds to the ACH account on record. You previously handled requests by email. USD funds by depositors are the property of the depositor and not an investment. You have no legal standing to hold those funds pending "anything". I agree with TangibleCryptography. In your own words: I know exactly how much each user currently has in their account for both USD and BTC. No records were lost in this attack.
Unless you have gotten legal advice to the contrary (if you have please let us know), I would advise processing ACH withdrawals on a as needed basis. |
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Care to clarify on #4?
If it is just signed w/ hash of password well attacker can simply use the stored hash to sign any withdrawal as any user.
If it is signed by actual user password there is no way for the server to validate this as they don't have the actual password.
it is signed with a private key derived from the password (the private key is preferably derived on the client, so that the server never sees the password. in any case, the server does not store the private key) the server can validate because it stores the public key associated to the private key. This. If you used JavaScript to do all the generation and password hashing then there is no way the server could even get the users password, because it is never sent. |
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Like taking that 5% fee and paying someone who knows something about security to have a look at your stuff and point out obvious weaknesses like "unencrypted copy of the wallet keys" lying around on "supposedly non-public-facing" servers with open connections to public facing servers.
Or maybe one should be responsible for one's own money and btc and not leave them sitting on other peoples' servers for extended periods? Would you leave your wallet and house keys next to someone on the subway to watch for you? You gave him five bucks. He said he'll do his best. Obviously you don't trade alot. If you want to take advantage of the swings then you must hold a balance on the exchanges. |
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There is no single solution which meets the needs of every single service provider. That being said having a hotwallet with 100% of the funds is simply inexcusable. More than anything else it is sad. Bitfloor was growing rapidly and was a great source of liquidity outside of MtGox (which is important IMHO). It is destroyed now and honestly shtylman is better than that.
Agreed. If Roman really learns as much as possible from this, let others review his security procedures, he can build the most secure exchange out there. Large withdrawals may not be instant, who cares, at least they are safe. If I deposit 1000 BTC with him, I want to trade it, not withdraw it back out immediately. That +1000. I t baffles me why larger sites have not implemented that yet. Hell they could even make it a user option. |
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Thanks... I added it but now I am getting a compile error for it (berkeley-db4): libtool: compile: /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Toolchains/XcodeDefault.xctoolchain/usr/bin/clang -c -I. -I../dist/.. -isysroot /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Platforms/MacOSX.platform/Developer/SDKs/MacOSX10.8.sdk -Os -w -pipe -march=native -Qunused-arguments -mmacosx-version-min=10.8 -isysroot /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Platforms/MacOSX.platform/Developer/SDKs/MacOSX10.8.sdk -fno-strict-aliasing ../dist/../libdb_java/db_java_wrap.c -fno-common -DPIC -o .libs/db_java_wrap.o
../dist/../libdb_java/db_java_wrap.c:137:10: fatal error: 'jni.h' file not found
#include <jni.h>
^
1 error generated.
I have my feelings that it is due to upgrading to Mt. Lion this weekend, has anyone else compiled this on Mt. Lion? |
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Red Emerald, amazing formula but how do I upgrade, armory is saying their is a new version but % brew upgrade wysenynja/bitcoin/armory-qt
Error: armory-qt-HEAD already installed
% brew upgrade --HEAD wysenynja/bitcoin/armory-qt
Error: armory-qt-HEAD already installed
You can't until he updates the forumla. Last I knew he was waiting for mac specific things to be merged into master. |
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MtGox moved about 424242 coins at the same time after the hack to prove they were still in control of them, and they probably have more now. ArtFortz mined a huge amount of the coins in the beginning so if he hasn't sold as many as he said he may have twice that amount. Some unknown rich guy may even just have bought that amount speculating that the price will rise.
While they may have such amount of coins, neither MtGox or ArtFortz would be likely to build up a wallet like this over the past 6 months, and then liquidate it just when pirate fails. We may never know for sure, but unless someone other than pirate stands up and proves ownership of that wallet, its definitely the best hypothesis available.. While I do agree that this is likely the main BTCST wallet your statement of MtGox liquidating doesn't really make sense. If this were some sort of MtGox cold/long-term storage then: 1. They would probably move large (10+k) batches at a time 2. As they were used in the exchange it would appear as laundering due to the wide audience of gox. Someone else used the term "bees with diabetes" So it is quite possible that it is something other than the pirate wallet, even though a lot of things do fit for BTCST |
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He is the very first user I have ever ignored on this forum, or any forum as far as I can recall.
Same for me. +1 |
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