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Author Topic: Flat Earth  (Read 1093505 times)
BADecker
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December 08, 2019, 02:17:06 AM
 #15601

^^^ See how notbatman advertises for cigarettes with outdated cigarette ads? Same kind of thing he is trying to do with the shape of the earth... FE = outdated data advertising.

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notbatman
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December 08, 2019, 03:13:07 AM
 #15602

^


odolvlobo
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December 08, 2019, 07:37:11 AM
 #15603

"...looming is taken into account with the setting sun. It is what causes the sun to appear to flatten out as it sets..."
  The flattening effect with the setting sun is cased by perspective, foreshortening occurs as the sun approaches the angular resolution limit of the observer. This is not a refractive effect.

There is no reason why perspective should affect the vertical direction differently than the horizontal direction, so how can perspective cause flattening? Also, because the angular size of the sun is always 0.5 degrees, there is no way that it can approach the angular limit of the observer. Either way it still doesn't explain why the sun appears compressed in one direction as it sets.

"...The looming effect raises the apparent elevation of an object, and globe believers use this to explain how we can see the tops of objects that should be below the horizon. How can the flat earth model reject looming in this case but accept it as the reason that the size of the sun doesn't change? Actually, I don't understand how looming is associated with magnification in the first place..."
  Looming raises the apparent elevation of an object because the object is enlarged, clearly I'm not rejecting the effect.

I meant that flat earth rejects the claim that looming is what allows objects that are behind the earth's curvature be seen even though it "raises the apparent elevation of an object because the object is enlarged."

"...How does the flat earth model explain the setting sun? It can't be looming or even refraction in general because those have the opposite effect..."
  Your understanding of refractive looming is incorrect, it causes magnification not just an apparent elevation rise. That combined with perspective foreshortening accounts for what is observed at sunset.

My understanding of refraction and looming is good. Atmospheric refraction is caused by the differences in the density of the air at different elevations. Generally, the air at lower elevations is denser and this causes the effect of looming, making distance objects appear higher than they actually are. However, local conditions can also cause other refractive effects.

Anyway, I don't understand how the combination of magnification and foreshortening can cause the sun to appear to go below the plane. Are you saying that it actually doesn't, and instead it is compressed so much vertically that it can no longer be seen?

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December 08, 2019, 08:17:33 AM
 #15604

^^^ There are different kinds of refractive effects, you're confusing those caused by differences in air density with one that's caused by suspended water droplets. Looming is the magnification of an object from a composite lens of suspended water droplets.

Differences in air density can cause the entire filed of view to rise up and become distorted but that's a separate effect more closely related to superior mirages.

Quote
Anyway, I don't understand how the combination of magnification and foreshortening can cause the sun to appear to go below the plane. Are you saying that it actually doesn't, and instead it is compressed so much vertically that it can no longer be seen?

Yes the foreshortening is a bottom up vertical compression, looming then magnifies the compressed image. A narrow band superior mirage is often also present and mirrors the bottom half.
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December 08, 2019, 02:30:53 PM
 #15605

So wouldn't it be more beneficial that the plane just took off, hover on the same point and wait for the earth to turn around? If it's flat it has to fly so yea there is the answer.
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December 08, 2019, 07:07:21 PM
 #15606

Quote
Anyway, I don't understand how the combination of magnification and foreshortening can cause the sun to appear to go below the plane. Are you saying that it actually doesn't, and instead it is compressed so much vertically that it can no longer be seen?

Yes the foreshortening is a bottom up vertical compression, looming then magnifies the compressed image. A narrow band superior mirage is often also present and mirrors the bottom half.

Foreshortening is not a "bottom up vertical compression". Foreshortening is the same in all orientations and directions. Look up at tall buildings. Look down a deep hole. Even your own diagrams show horizontal foreshortening.



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BADecker
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December 08, 2019, 08:27:21 PM
 #15607

Quote
Anyway, I don't understand how the combination of magnification and foreshortening can cause the sun to appear to go below the plane. Are you saying that it actually doesn't, and instead it is compressed so much vertically that it can no longer be seen?

Yes the foreshortening is a bottom up vertical compression, looming then magnifies the compressed image. A narrow band superior mirage is often also present and mirrors the bottom half.

Foreshortening is not a "bottom up vertical compression". Foreshortening is the same in all orientations and directions. Look up at tall buildings. Look down a deep hole. Even your own diagrams show horizontal foreshortening.




Yabut, if those buildings weren't there, and there was a deep valley there instead, and a mountain at the right of the telephone poles, what would the vanishing points on the mountain top and at the valley bottom look like?... assuming you could see a vanished point.

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HI-TEC99
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December 08, 2019, 10:38:14 PM
 #15608

^ The globe fails a distance to the horizon test with a wide margin of error using a super-zoom camera. The surface of the earth doesn't curve at any distance!

Not only is the earth flat for as far as the eye can see, the earth is flat for as far as the Nikon P1000 can see.

This review says your Nikon P1000 super-zoom camera is shit, so it can't prove the Earth is flat.

https://www.cliftoncameras.co.uk/Blog/The-Nikon-P1000-is-the-Best-Bridge-Camera-of-2018---But-its-Not-for-Me

Quote
I have a hard time imagining exactly who the P1000 appeals to. It's too big to be a travel camera and lacks the requisite discretion for street photography. It has little professional application, besides documentation, and it feels too bulky for family holidays. That sort of leaves us with the birders and the weirdos...

Which one are you, a birder or a weirdo?
HI-TEC99
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December 08, 2019, 10:56:22 PM
 #15609

^


^

Fake advertising. Physicians recommend lucky strikes.

notbatman
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December 08, 2019, 11:24:44 PM
 #15610

@odolvlobo,

  That diagram depicts convergence to a point. That point is called the vanishing point and it's the limit of the observers vision, the Angular Resolution Limit. What that diagram doesn't depict is what's going on at the vanishing point, we'd need a zoomed in view to see how the objects are vanishing:

If the observers eye level was zero i.e. their ear touching the ground, objects would be uniformly compressed as they approach the ARL until they vanish (narrow band superior mirages not withstanding). However if the observers eye level is elevated, it increases their angle of attack and objects are no longer uniformly compressed as they vanish, the elevated perspective causes objects to be compressed bottom up.

It should be noted that as the observers angle of attack (eye elevation) increases, the topmost part of objects that have been compressed beyond the ARL become expanded, thus bringing them back into view and increasing the distance to the vanishing point.

This optical compression effect known as foreshortening can be easily demonstrated by checking a pool cue for deformations.
odolvlobo
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December 09, 2019, 11:13:42 AM
 #15611

If the observers eye level was zero i.e. their ear touching the ground, objects would be uniformly compressed as they approach the ARL until they vanish (narrow band superior mirages not withstanding). ...

So, if I put my eye at ground level the sun doesn't appear to set?

... However if the observers eye level is elevated, it increases their angle of attack and objects are no longer uniformly compressed as they vanish, the elevated perspective causes objects to be compressed bottom up.
It should be noted that as the observers angle of attack (eye elevation) increases, the topmost part of objects that have been compressed beyond the ARL become expanded, thus bringing them back into view and increasing the distance to the vanishing point.
This optical compression effect known as foreshortening can be easily demonstrated by checking a pool cue for deformations.

None of that makes sense. You are saying that refraction magnifies the sun so that its size remains constant until it gets a certain distance away, and then suddenly it stops magnifying it vertically (or perhaps the perspective effect suddenly begins to overpower the magnification in the vertical direction).


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Cryptotourist
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December 09, 2019, 11:38:32 AM
 #15612

I'm trying to keep myself at bay here, but I'm finding it very difficult indeed.

Of course trying to rationalize with Batty - is a noble cause - but it leads nowhere.
His mind is made up already & so is his agenda.
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December 09, 2019, 01:13:56 PM
Last edit: December 09, 2019, 01:59:38 PM by notbatman
 #15613

@odolvlobo,

"...So, if I put my eye at ground level the sun doesn't appear to set?..."

How do you come to such an irrational conclusion?

Lowering your perspective will cause a uniform compression of the sun as it sets, it will vanish sooner because of more complete compression. The vanishing point and thus the horizon has a reduced distance with your ear to the ground.

If you stand up the sun will reappear as the topmost part of the sun is expanded. It returns so it's within the confines of the observers angular resolution limit due, to an increased angle of attack.

While the sun is being compressed and passing the vanishing point at the horizon, looming magnifies its size. Looming as I stated before is caused by suspended water droplets in the atmosphere that create a composite lens.









edit:

Here's some P1000 footage with filmed with a solar filter:
   Mission Bay Sunset: Atmosplanic Compression -- https://youtu.be/JJqNe10tG7I
HI-TEC99
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December 09, 2019, 06:50:42 PM
 #15614



edit:

Here's some P1000 footage with filmed with a solar filter:
   Mission Bay Sunset: Atmosplanic Compression -- https://youtu.be/JJqNe10tG7I

This youtube review says the P1000 is shit, so it's pointless trying to prove the Earth is flat with it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHiYizz7Acs



Your camera is shit.
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December 09, 2019, 07:17:46 PM
 #15615

Hey Nobatman,
I am curious to know where does the sun go when it is night time? 

Do they just turn if off on the ceiling (of the dome) ?
This is an actual legit question.

On globe earth it is easy to understand, the sun is on the other side of the earth (or the globe earth rotated and another part of it is in direct sight of the sun).

How does it work with a flat-disc earth ?

How do you explain, that some people on earth still have day light when some don't.
If the earth is flat, and the sun an object on the dome, then everybody should see it at the same time.


I obviously don't believe in FE, but I am curious to know how you explain the day/night cycle and the fact that not everybody has the same light pattern.

Cheers

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December 09, 2019, 07:47:20 PM
 #15616

"...So, if I put my eye at ground level the sun doesn't appear to set?..."

How do you come to such an irrational conclusion?
...

Ok, I think I finally figured out what you are saying. You are explaining why the bottom of the sun is flat instead of round, so that it appears to go below the plane when it actually doesn't. Sorry, my globe earth biases obviously get in the way.

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December 10, 2019, 01:48:35 AM
Last edit: December 10, 2019, 03:23:55 AM by notbatman
 #15617

@odolvlobo,










@guigui371,

"...Do they just turn if off on the ceiling (of the dome) ?..."

Such irrationality.

The sun is a close small object made from electrical plasma and it travels in a circle above us around the north pole. The earth is large enough that the sun only lights up part of the surface at once. The sun also has a yearly bi-annual lateral movement that accounts for the seasons.
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December 10, 2019, 03:44:29 AM
 #15618



Such irrationality.
That was on purpose Wink


The sun is a close small object made from electrical plasma and it travels in a circle above us around the north pole. The earth is large enough that the sun only lights up part of the surface at once. The sun also has a yearly bi-annual lateral movement that accounts for the seasons.

You could have provided a photo to explain.
I guess i found my answer (it is a cool GIF)
https://wiki.tfes.org/File:SunAnimation.gif


Almost convincing.

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December 10, 2019, 03:48:27 AM
Last edit: December 10, 2019, 04:00:04 AM by notbatman
 #15619

@HI-TEC99,


Canon EF 1200mm f/5.6 L USM
MSRP:  ‎$89,579 USD

vs.

Nikon P1000 | Focal length (equiv.): 24–3000 mm
MSRP: $999.95 USD
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December 10, 2019, 07:43:50 AM
 #15620

I've never understood flat eathers' boners for cheap compact cameras like the Nikon P900 or its successor. They're hailed as the holy grails of cameras and when they're not able to focus correctly because of their cheap electronics and optics, the non-focused blurry images are considered to be the "true" forms of planets and stars by flat earthers. And vice versa, truly sharp pictures which are shot with better equipment and focused correctly are considered to be fakes produced by the illuminati or something.

Most sensible people would consider badly focused images as crap, but ghost hunters, flat eathers and UFO nuts thrive on crappy, shaken, badly focused and blurry images which are believed to show the "truth".
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