Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud)

[hdbuck]

Are you sure? I'm in Europe and I have never witnessed this. For example students usually buy coffee from those vending machines which only accept cash (obviously). I do agree that it is common to pay for tiny stuff with CC. I have one as well that is NFC enabled, and I can usually pay with a 2-3 second touch (pretty good).

From vending machines maybe... but man that is absolute rubbish.

Go to any coffee shops for instance in the countries I mentioned, and count how many people pay with cash. I did the experiment right now (I'm in one) since last post and from 15 customers or so, I was the only one to pay cash. I'd say it was a bit of a coincidence, but generally there's at least 75% customers paying with credit or debit cards.

Some people who have gone full Bitcoin for whatever reason might be worried about being charged fees. In day to day small transactions, cash is fine (for now).

where i live, you cant even always pay with CC as merchants have a minimum amount required (around 15€).


ps: lmao for the censorship comic.

Yes, in several countries in the continent it's like that. Many small shops in Italy, France or Spain won't take CC under 10 or 15 euro.

It seems like in other northerly countries were the family business is basically dead (they belong to franchises or chains, even the most homely looking) there are deals with the main banking networks so that they keep most of the transactions within their system. It's an interesting phenomenon, but here certainly you won't undercut them, and that incentive completely goes away for better or worse. Maybe for the better since you would never be able to compete on raw throughput, you want the user to be aware that his privacy is lost completely instead and that is the price he or she is paying.

Thanks to cash it's not the most critical thing.

and that touchy thing paying with a 3sec contact is bogus as hell.

I carved a small hole in my card to prevent it from being highjacked.

lots of stories of stolen data and funds because of bandits wandering in crowded places with some wide range hacking device.

[brg444]

It just doesn't make any sense to want to spend bitcoins.

As far as I know Gresham's law is still a thing.

I'll be damned if you find me using BTC to buy coffees when I've got inflation plagued fiat in my bank account

[TooDumbForBitcoin]

It just doesn't make any sense to want to spend bitcoins.

As far as I know Gresham's law is still a thing.

I'll be damned if you find me using BTC to buy coffees when I've got inflation plagued fiat in my bank account

buying stuff with BTC, regardless of price, is convenient way to convert BTC to cash for those who wish to do so.

[Lauda]

From vending machines maybe... but man that is absolute rubbish.

Go to any coffee shops for instance in the countries I mentioned, and count how many people pay with cash. I did the experiment right now (I'm in one) since last post and from 15 customers or so, I was the only one to pay cash. I'd say it was a bit of a coincidence, but generally there's at least 75% customers paying with credit or debit cards.

Rubbish? I just told you what I have seen (without disclosing my location). It does depend on the region (or country). Especially if you live in less developed countries, coffee shops tend to not accept credit cards at all. I still prefer paying for such stuff using cash.

where i live, you cant even always pay with CC as merchants have a minimum amount required (around 15€).

Yeah it really depends where you live. The north is much more developed than the south though. Ah yeah, that's the so called "censorship" around here.  

It just doesn't make any sense to want to spend bitcoins.

It does not?

[muyuu]

From vending machines maybe... but man that is absolute rubbish.

Go to any coffee shops for instance in the countries I mentioned, and count how many people pay with cash. I did the experiment right now (I'm in one) since last post and from 15 customers or so, I was the only one to pay cash. I'd say it was a bit of a coincidence, but generally there's at least 75% customers paying with credit or debit cards.

Rubbish? I just told you what I have seen (without disclosing my location). It does depend on the region (or country). Especially if you live in less developed countries, coffee shops tend to not accept credit cards at all. I still prefer paying for such stuff using cash.

Man I meant that vending machine coffee is rubbish, not that what you said is. Yeah, these usually are ran on cash, in some places. I have yet to see one of these in my area though.

It just doesn't make any sense to want to spend bitcoins.

As far as I know Gresham's law is still a thing.

I'll be damned if you find me using BTC to buy coffees when I've got inflation plagued fiat in my bank account

buying stuff with BTC, regardless of price, is convenient way to convert BTC to cash for those who wish to do so.

It is. And the capacity to do that increases the value of Bitcoin. But that doesn't mean you need to go out of your way to clog the blockchain with pointless transactions. As a high throughput system it currently doesn't have the capacity. Why pretending it does? Do you want to just push all domestic nodes out of existence and jeopardise the neutrality of the network?

[hdbuck]

It just doesn't make any sense to want to spend bitcoins.

As far as I know Gresham's law is still a thing.

I'll be damned if you find me using BTC to buy coffees when I've got inflation plagued fiat in my bank account

buying stuff with BTC, regardless of price, is convenient way to convert BTC to cash for those who wish to do so.

It is. And the capacity to do that increases the value of Bitcoin. But that doesn't mean you need to go out of your way to clog the blockchain with pointless transactions. As a high throughput system it currently doesn't have the capacity. Why pretending it does? Do you want to just push all domestic nodes out of existence and jeopardise the neutrality of the network?

+1 i conquer fully on this.

yes it seems convenient to buy stuff with bitcoin now, but as a holder, i woudlnt in any way.

this is how to make bitcoin worth more, hoard, sit back and relax (whilst spending the rest of the monkey paper money for day to day purchases)

it is trivial to compare bitcoin to visa or to use it for the same purposes as fiat is being used for.

and so it also goes with the bogus centralized fiat/btc exchange businesses that mimic the very same fundamental mistakes of the current system just to make a buck on noobs that still havent understood bitcoin is about controlling their funds and not letting someone else (untrustable third party) playing with them.

as i said before: as long as i hold my private keys, and regardless of blocksize, tps or whatever socialist unicorn of saving the world, bitcoin is doing exactly and perfectly what it is supposed to.

[TooDumbForBitcoin]

From vending machines maybe... but man that is absolute rubbish.

Go to any coffee shops for instance in the countries I mentioned, and count how many people pay with cash. I did the experiment right now (I'm in one) since last post and from 15 customers or so, I was the only one to pay cash. I'd say it was a bit of a coincidence, but generally there's at least 75% customers paying with credit or debit cards.

Rubbish? I just told you what I have seen (without disclosing my location). It does depend on the region (or country). Especially if you live in less developed countries, coffee shops tend to not accept credit cards at all. I still prefer paying for such stuff using cash.

Man I meant that vending machine coffee is rubbish, not that what you said is. Yeah, these usually are ran on cash, in some places. I have yet to see one of these in my area though.

It just doesn't make any sense to want to spend bitcoins.

As far as I know Gresham's law is still a thing.

I'll be damned if you find me using BTC to buy coffees when I've got inflation plagued fiat in my bank account

buying stuff with BTC, regardless of price, is convenient way to convert BTC to cash for those who wish to do so.

It is. And the capacity to do that increases the value of Bitcoin. But that doesn't mean you need to go out of your way to clog the blockchain with pointless transactions. As a high throughput system it currently doesn't have the capacity. Why pretending it does? Do you want to just push all domestic nodes out of existence and jeopardise the neutrality of the network?

My limited understanding of Bitcoin is its security depends on the cryptography and POW algorithms, not on the altruism and nurturing of each individual coffee drinker. 

By "out of the way", do you mean down the street a block to a BTC-accepting coffee shop, or do you mean reaching into my left pocket for a smartphone instead of my right pocket for a credit card?  The coffee shop is on my way to work, and my exchange happens instantly.  No logging in, setting a sell price, paying an exchange fee, etc, etc.

[iCEBREAKER]

r/bitcoinxt is being trolled by people posing as xt supporters.

Zomg, NotXT nodes are becoming self-aware and making NotGavinista troll accounts at Reddit!   

[LFC_Bitcoin]

There were loads of XT shills supporters on here a few months ago declaring some sort of victory & the end of Core.

I remember a few of the usernames but I won't embarrass them by naming & shaming them, I'd be interested to know how they feel at the moment though?

[sgbett]

Pity

[brg444]

It just doesn't make any sense to want to spend bitcoins.

As far as I know Gresham's law is still a thing.

I'll be damned if you find me using BTC to buy coffees when I've got inflation plagued fiat in my bank account

buying stuff with BTC, regardless of price, is convenient way to convert BTC to cash for those who wish to do so.

Unless you mine or get paid in BTC you are buying it with fiat.

So yeah buying BTC to buy "stuff" makes little sense apart from niche use cases.

Bitcoin is a hard, fixed supply asset that rewards delayed gratification. It is quite simply poor economic acumen to prefer it to debased fiat for de minimis daily transactions

[hdbuck]

It just doesn't make any sense to want to spend bitcoins.

As far as I know Gresham's law is still a thing.

I'll be damned if you find me using BTC to buy coffees when I've got inflation plagued fiat in my bank account

buying stuff with BTC, regardless of price, is convenient way to convert BTC to cash for those who wish to do so.

Unless you mine or get paid in BTC you are buying it with fiat.

So yeah buying BTC to buy "stuff" makes little sense apart from niche use cases.

Bitcoin is a hard, fixed supply asset that rewards delayed gratification. It is quite simply poor economic acumen to prefer it to debased fiat for de minimis daily transactions

that is, quite naturally i must admit, free black market stuff - at your very own risk obviously

besides, buying other daily things is economically nonsense because of its volatility.

you dont wanna end up like that dude buynig a pizza with bitcoins 4 years ago!

[Meuh6879]

Pity

but tricky.

[TooDumbForBitcoin]

It just doesn't make any sense to want to spend bitcoins.

As far as I know Gresham's law is still a thing.

I'll be damned if you find me using BTC to buy coffees when I've got inflation plagued fiat in my bank account

buying stuff with BTC, regardless of price, is convenient way to convert BTC to cash for those who wish to do so.

Unless you mine or get paid in BTC you are buying it with fiat.

So yeah buying BTC to buy "stuff" makes little sense apart from niche use cases.

Bitcoin is a hard, fixed supply asset that rewards delayed gratification. It is quite simply poor economic acumen to prefer it to debased fiat for de minimis daily transactions

A couple years ago some people had instant, and delayed, gratification when they exchanged BTC for $1200 of fiat, waited, and then gratified themselves by replacing those BTC for $250 each, or so. 

There's more than one way to gratify one's self.  Anyone professing to be a master of self-gratification needs to provide credentials.

[muyuu]

besides, buying other daily things is economically nonsense because of its volatility.

you dont wanna end up like that dude buynig a pizza with bitcoins 4 years ago!

The only reason to use/sell and not replenish is that you believe the price is going down.

I've bought stuff and immediately replenished, the exchange rate didn't bother me at all. If I went back to the stuff I got pre 2013 for BTC at today's rates I paid fortunes, but that makes no sense so long as you rebuy.

If you pay a sensible fee and the system is sustainable, transacting as much as you want and can afford to is fine. The system is currently unstable in that we have to be praying for people not to overuse it because the incentives are fucked, and that is the problem. The system should be such that nobody can afford to deny service. Blocks have to stay manageable and people need to pay higher fees if they don't want their txs lagging for ages or rejected.

[VeritasSapere]

besides, buying other daily things is economically nonsense because of its volatility.

you dont wanna end up like that dude buynig a pizza with bitcoins 4 years ago!

The only reason to use/sell and not replenish is that you believe the price is going down.

I've bought stuff and immediately replenished, the exchange rate didn't bother me at all. If I went back to the stuff I got pre 2013 for BTC at today's rates I paid fortunes, but that makes no sense so long as you rebuy.

If you pay a sensible fee and the system is sustainable, transacting as much as you want and can afford to is fine. The system is currently unstable in that we have to be praying for people not to overuse it because the incentives are fucked, and that is the problem. The system should be such that nobody can afford to deny service. Blocks have to stay manageable and people need to pay higher fees if they don't want their txs lagging for ages or rejected.

I use Bitcoin frequently as a currency, and I re buy my Bitcoin when I spend them. I think that the incentives of Bitcoin are working fine, we just need to increase the blocksize, which would make it more expensive to attack Bitcoin by overloading it with transactions. Miners can choose not to include low fee transactions anyway if that is what the situation requires. Higher volume with a lower fee would be better then a lower volume with a higher fee.

[mayax]

besides, buying other daily things is economically nonsense because of its volatility.

you dont wanna end up like that dude buynig a pizza with bitcoins 4 years ago!

The only reason to use/sell and not replenish is that you believe the price is going down.

I've bought stuff and immediately replenished, the exchange rate didn't bother me at all. If I went back to the stuff I got pre 2013 for BTC at today's rates I paid fortunes, but that makes no sense so long as you rebuy.

If you pay a sensible fee and the system is sustainable, transacting as much as you want and can afford to is fine. The system is currently unstable in that we have to be praying for people not to overuse it because the incentives are fucked, and that is the problem. The system should be such that nobody can afford to deny service. Blocks have to stay manageable and people need to pay higher fees if they don't want their txs lagging for ages or rejected.

I use Bitcoin frequently as a currency, and I re buy my Bitcoin when I spend them. I think that the incentives of Bitcoin are working fine, we just need to increase the blocksize, which would make it more expensive to attack Bitcoin by overloading it with transactions. Miners can choose not to include low fee transactions anyway if that is what the situation requires. Higher volume with a lower fee would be better then a lower volume with a higher fee.

Question: Why don't you use your credit/debit card instead of BTC. Any online and offline shopping by using credit/debit cards is free of charge. Cheaper than that you cannot find

[brg444]

besides, buying other daily things is economically nonsense because of its volatility.

you dont wanna end up like that dude buynig a pizza with bitcoins 4 years ago!

The only reason to use/sell and not replenish is that you believe the price is going down.

I've bought stuff and immediately replenished, the exchange rate didn't bother me at all. If I went back to the stuff I got pre 2013 for BTC at today's rates I paid fortunes, but that makes no sense so long as you rebuy.

If you pay a sensible fee and the system is sustainable, transacting as much as you want and can afford to is fine. The system is currently unstable in that we have to be praying for people not to overuse it because the incentives are fucked, and that is the problem. The system should be such that nobody can afford to deny service. Blocks have to stay manageable and people need to pay higher fees if they don't want their txs lagging for ages or rejected.

I use Bitcoin frequently as a currency, and I re buy my Bitcoin when I spend them. I think that the incentives of Bitcoin are working fine, we just need to increase the blocksize, which would make it more expensive to attack Bitcoin by overloading it with transactions. Miners can choose not to include low fee transactions anyway if that is what the situation requires. Higher volume with a lower fee would be better then a lower volume with a higher fee.

Question: Why don't you use your credit/debit card instead of BTC. Any online and offline shopping by using credit/debit cards is free of charge. Cheaper than that you cannot find

*Insert bullshit ideological motivation*

[brg444]

It's clear the incentives are not there to spend your BTC over fiat right now.

Too volatile, not practical (confirmation delays), security issues, economically counterintuitive.

Any sane person realizes that the tradeoff just so you can feel all warm and fuzzy because of the novel experience of Bitcoin transactions are not worth it right now.

[muyuu]

I use Bitcoin frequently as a currency, and I re buy my Bitcoin when I spend them. I think that the incentives of Bitcoin are working fine, we just need to increase the blocksize, which would make it more expensive to attack Bitcoin by overloading it with transactions. Miners can choose not to include low fee transactions anyway if that is what the situation requires. Higher volume with a lower fee would be better then a lower volume with a higher fee.

I'm talking about the incentives of the actors that keep Bitcoin working, where you as a user are just a tiny bit, not about your incentives to buy whatever.

The incentives of nodes, miners and users (transactors) as a full system. The system for it to work without strict caps should be such that any transaction you send that gets included makes sense for the equilibrium of the system to include. Currently it's not the case for the majority of transactions. The reasons have been elaborated a gazillion times and I don't think another instance will change things.

In one line and without going into detail: miners and nodes are doing work against their individual short term interest, trying to keep their long term interests but without good information on how to do that. That's why keeping a cap that guarantees "some" domestic nodes can stay afloat is not a bad idea, without even going into miners, latencies, orphaning and propagation.