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Author Topic: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud)  (Read 378978 times)
muyuu
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November 27, 2015, 12:57:37 PM
 #3321

I'm certainly bullish that Gavin is increasingly ostracised from Core, and could be even more by leading himself alone in XT.

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knight22
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November 27, 2015, 05:40:36 PM
 #3322

I'm certainly bullish that Gavin is increasingly ostracised from Core, and could be even more by leading himself alone in XT.

He his certainly not alone:

https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/coinbase-ceo-brian-armstrong-bip-is-the-best-proposal-we-ve-seen-so-far-1446584055

and

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3u9mnq/gavin_andresen_i_might_take_over_lead_of_bitcoin/

and

http://blog.blockchain.com/2015/08/24/industry-endorses-bigger-blocks-and-bip101/


muyuu
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November 27, 2015, 06:32:00 PM
 #3323


Yeah, I love it. Basically all the cancers and leeches of Bitcoin joining together and hopefully pissing off to a "fork". VC money and the payment channel leeches have been trying very hard to end cypherpunk Bitcoin for about 2 years in full force.

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knight22
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November 27, 2015, 06:35:23 PM
 #3324


Yeah, I love it. Basically all the cancers and leeches of Bitcoin joining together and hopefully pissing off to a "fork". VC money and the payment channel leeches have been trying very hard to end cypherpunk Bitcoin for about 2 years in full force.

So much drama for a single variable increase to allow more people to use bitcoin.

hdbuck
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November 27, 2015, 06:41:39 PM
 #3325


Yeah, I love it. Basically all the cancers and leeches of Bitcoin joining together and hopefully pissing off to a "fork". VC money and the payment channel leeches have been trying very hard to end cypherpunk Bitcoin for about 2 years in full force.

So much drama for a single variable increase to allow more people to use bitcoin.

short sighted and irrelevant.

corpcoin has no value.

knight22
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November 27, 2015, 06:52:36 PM
 #3326


Yeah, I love it. Basically all the cancers and leeches of Bitcoin joining together and hopefully pissing off to a "fork". VC money and the payment channel leeches have been trying very hard to end cypherpunk Bitcoin for about 2 years in full force.

So much drama for a single variable increase to allow more people to use bitcoin.

short sighted. inefficient. irrelevant.

corpcoin has no value.



About being short sighted, are you talking about Core devs procrastination two years ago who didn't care about the blocksize limit which led to all this drama that is happening today? THAT was pretty short sighted IMO. No?

hdbuck
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November 27, 2015, 07:09:56 PM
 #3327


Yeah, I love it. Basically all the cancers and leeches of Bitcoin joining together and hopefully pissing off to a "fork". VC money and the payment channel leeches have been trying very hard to end cypherpunk Bitcoin for about 2 years in full force.

So much drama for a single variable increase to allow more people to use bitcoin.

short sighted. inefficient. irrelevant.

corpcoin has no value.



About being short sighted, are you talking about Core devs procrastination two years ago who didn't care about the blocksize limit which led to all this drama that is happening today? THAT was pretty short sighted IMO. No?

Hmm just checked, my coinz are still here. Smiley
Amph
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November 27, 2015, 07:39:04 PM
 #3328


Yeah, I love it. Basically all the cancers and leeches of Bitcoin joining together and hopefully pissing off to a "fork". VC money and the payment channel leeches have been trying very hard to end cypherpunk Bitcoin for about 2 years in full force.

So much drama for a single variable increase to allow more people to use bitcoin.

this isn't the case with xt, they are adding other crap like ip identification, and unless they changed that shit, it's very relevant to the dismissing of the xt
neurotypical
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November 27, 2015, 10:06:17 PM
 #3329


Yeah, I love it. Basically all the cancers and leeches of Bitcoin joining together and hopefully pissing off to a "fork". VC money and the payment channel leeches have been trying very hard to end cypherpunk Bitcoin for about 2 years in full force.

So much drama for a single variable increase to allow more people to use bitcoin.

this isn't the case with xt, they are adding other crap like ip identification, and unless they changed that shit, it's very relevant to the dismissing of the xt

I don't think they can afford that because the people that are funding their dev team and the nodes would stop if they didn't do what they are being told to do (all those anti privacy and anti decentralization features to please banks)
muyuu
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November 28, 2015, 02:16:07 AM
 #3330

A good laugh  Cheesy

https://archive.is/lQCHp

Quote
On Black Friday, with 9,000 transactions backlogged, Peter Todd (supported by Greg Maxwell) is merging a dangerous change to Core (RBF - Replace-by-Fee). RBF makes it harder for merchants to use zero-conf, and makes it easier for spammers and double-spenders to damage the network.

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Cconvert2G36
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November 28, 2015, 02:21:43 AM
Last edit: November 28, 2015, 09:20:30 AM by Cconvert2G36
 #3331

heheheh

#gavinREKT #1MB4EVA #LOIC #replacebyFIST #forkOFF
Lauda
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November 28, 2015, 08:59:32 AM
 #3332

A good laugh  Cheesy

https://archive.is/lQCHp

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On Black Friday, with 9,000 transactions backlogged, Peter Todd (supported by Greg Maxwell) is merging a dangerous change to Core (RBF - Replace-by-Fee). RBF makes it harder for merchants to use zero-conf, and makes it easier for spammers and double-spenders to damage the network.
Nobody intelligent is going to take these clowns serious if they keep posting nonsense like that. Fork off already guys, nobody needs nor wants you here. That's your freedom of choice, not 'multiple implementations' that you're talking about.

"The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks"
😼 Bitcoin Core (onion)
DiamondCardz
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November 28, 2015, 11:32:10 AM
Last edit: November 28, 2015, 01:04:44 PM by DiamondCardz
 #3333

Sigh, look at the comments on that /r/bitcoin post.

I appreciate some people support XT, but there's no need to start turning it into a game of "us and them", "Core supporters and XT supporters", "/r/bitcoin and theymos".

BA Computer Science, University of Oxford
Dissertation was about threat modelling on distributed ledgers.
gmaxwell
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November 28, 2015, 01:39:17 PM
 #3334

About being short sighted, are you talking about Core devs procrastination two years ago who didn't care about the blocksize limit which led to all this drama that is happening today? THAT was pretty short sighted IMO. No?

You mean writing things like,

Quote
I think it's clear now that actually getting Bitcoin to the fabled seven transactions per second will be a lot of hard work, [...] If things continue on their present path, scalability is really the least of our concerns [...] When I talk to VCs and Bitcoin-related financial institutions (the others don't care of course), scalability doesn't normally come up as an issue. Why should it? We're not even at 1 transaction per second today.

-- oh wait, that's Mike Hearn.

But seriously, the people you're being critical have done tremendous work on making Bitcoin more scalable.

It's a shame you disrespect us so when your has depended on our (free) labor.  We are struggling to keep the system viable at the current load levels; and have done tremendous work to keep it from falling over or falling into total centralization.

No one I know that is working heavily on the technology believes the system can survive significantly increased scale without actually increasing scalability-- so that's what many people working on; rather than twiddling a knob which slashed the node count the time it was soft-increased previously. Doubly so with fungibility being at least as great a short term concern as scale (and a much greater long term one), as wide spread commercial tracking and coin blacklisting are becoming common; and fungibility improvements come with scaling tradeoffs so to the extent that we have extra headroom we may need it to keep Bitcoin a _money_ (on top of the need for resource headroom to survive attacks).
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November 28, 2015, 01:52:11 PM
 #3335

If hypothetically more then seventy five percent of the miners supported BIP101 after January. Would Core recognize the will of the economic majority and implement BIP101?
You appear to be conflating unlike things here,  the BIP101 threshold is "75%" hashpower, which right now means perhaps two or three people at the moment. Two or three people are not an "economic majority" by any definition.

Quote
If you would implement BIP101 under such conditions you will have my full support. However if you intend to ignore the economic majority and still attempt to push your own agenda while circumventing and undermining the proof of work consensus then I will accuse Core of tyranny and totalitarianism. Which one is it Greg Maxwell, can you answer this question?
Have you stopped beating your wife?

After careful consideration I believe that BIP 101 is a seriously poor proposal, and I doubt the system would survive in an interesting form with that in the long run: but I don't care to try to convince you of that; when it comes down to it I'm uninterested in being involved in any system implementing it, and so I won't be. If the Bitcoin goes along with it-- I'll just work on something else. And it's my own free choice and will to decide what I work on in my time, hopefully you agree? (mimicking your approach:) and if you think you can tell me what I can work on, how I can spend my time, and what thoughts or program I can publish on my own sites I will accuse you of tyranny and totalitarianism. Which one is it, person who feels comfortable throwing rocks while hiding behind a pseudonym, can you answer this question?
VeritasSapere
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November 28, 2015, 05:10:25 PM
Last edit: November 28, 2015, 05:22:47 PM by VeritasSapere
 #3336

If hypothetically more then seventy five percent of the miners supported BIP101 after January. Would Core recognize the will of the economic majority and implement BIP101?
You appear to be conflating unlike things here,  the BIP101 threshold is "75%" hashpower, which right now means perhaps two or three people at the moment. Two or three people are not an "economic majority" by any definition.
I do not think that seventy five percent of the hash power is controlled by three people. I think that pools operate in a similar fashion to a representative democracy for the miners, so there are thousands of miners represented by ten to twenty pools. In effect the pools act as a proxy for the miners and the miners are a proxy for the economic majority, since the miners are incentivized not to go against the economic majority. This makes consensus an emergent phenomena which is best represented through proof of work.

This is what I believe, obviously you disagree which is fine. However when there is a fundamental disagreement in Bitcoin that is represented by a significant number of its participants, then in this case there does need to be a process to resolve such a disagreement. This is by necessity a political process which can be defined and understood by pre-existing political theory.

What do you propose should be the process for resolving such a fundamental disagreement? Since I always thought and still do think that proof of work is the ideal mechanism for this process. It does seem like you have answered my question and considering my own ideology it does not seem unfair for me to consider your mentality to be totalitarian in the context of Bitcoin. Also why have you not spoken out against the censorship? If you are opposed to the censorship that is currently occurring in the Bitcoin community now then please take the opportunity and speak up against it and allow your voice to be heard.

Allowing the blocks to fill up is in effect fundamentally changing the economic policy of Bitcoin, since the intention had always been to allow the blocks to become as big as they needed to be, so that this restriction would not block the stream of transactions so to speak.

Since these are also questions of political philosophy and economics among other disciplines, it is not necessarily the case that the technical experts are in the best position to answer some of these questions. Which is in part why consensus being an emergent phenomena represented through proof of work in order to represent the economic majority, seems to me to be a superior governance mechanism compared to what Core is presently proposing.
Quote
If you would implement BIP101 under such conditions you will have my full support. However if you intend to ignore the economic majority and still attempt to push your own agenda while circumventing and undermining the proof of work consensus then I will accuse Core of tyranny and totalitarianism. Which one is it Greg Maxwell, can you answer this question?
Have you stopped beating your wife?
I do not understand this statement and I find it offensive. I looked it up on google and the results where primarily comprised of examples of logical fallacy.

After careful consideration I believe that BIP 101 is a seriously poor proposal, and I doubt the system would survive in an interesting form with that in the long run: but I don't care to try to convince you of that; when it comes down to it I'm uninterested in being involved in any system implementing it, and so I won't be. If the Bitcoin goes along with it-- I'll just work on something else. And it's my own free choice and will to decide what I work on in my time, hopefully you agree?
I agree that you have your own freedom of choice that is fine, and I understand what you are saying, if the majority of miners disagree with you whom I think would represent the economic majority then you would stop working on Bitcoin. I would personally not be interested in Bitcoin if it needed a type of centralized authority in order to make decisions for the entire body politic, fortunately there are many alternative cryptocurrencies, there are also alternative paths for Bitcoin as long as enough people realize this, this is why the cryptocurrency revolution will live on no matter what happens, I am confident of this.

(mimicking your approach:) and if you think you can tell me what I can work on, how I can spend my time, and what thoughts or program I can publish on my own sites I will accuse you of tyranny and totalitarianism. Which one is it, person who feels comfortable throwing rocks while hiding behind a pseudonym, can you answer this question?
I certainly never said such things, and you have no grounds accusing me of tyranny and totalitarianism, I am here representing an enlightenment philosophy of freedom and self determination.

I can answer your question, you are free to do whatever you want and I would never suggest otherwise. However you might not be able to convince the economic majority that we need to change Bitcoin into whatever you find more "interesting". Does this then imply that you think that the original vision of Satoshi is "uninteresting"? Since he did support an increased blocksize. Talking about Satoshi, I do not appreciate you implying that I am a coward because I am "hiding" behind a pseudonym.
hdbuck
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November 28, 2015, 05:22:15 PM
 #3337

...

I am here representing an enlightenment philosophy of freedom and self determination.



ohh man, fork you already. Angry


@gmax: glad to see you here, do not let yourselves down with these irrelevant wackos.
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November 28, 2015, 05:26:56 PM
 #3338

Kids in the car always want to go faster, but only the driver and engineers know the limits of what is safe. The kids will cry that they didn't get to go faster, but it's for their own good.
VeritasSapere
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November 28, 2015, 05:37:26 PM
 #3339

Kids in the car always want to go faster, but only the driver and engineers know the limits of what is safe. The kids will cry that they didn't get to go faster, but it's for their own good.
This is a good example of paternalism. I would recommend reading John Stuarts Mills book, On Liberty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternalism

Quote
Paternalism (or parentalism) is behavior, by a person, organization or state, which limits some person or group's liberty or autonomy for what is presumed to be that person's or group's own good. Paternalism can also imply that the behavior is against or regardless of the will of a person, or also that the behavior expresses an attitude of superiority.
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The word paternalism is from the Greek pater (πάτηρ, πατέρας) for father.
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Paternalism towards adults is sometimes thought to treat them as if they were children.
hdbuck
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November 28, 2015, 05:47:19 PM
 #3340

^seriously you are one helluva piece of lying irrelevant shite.

you need to go see a shrink if not directly get you locked up or something.

"political philosopher".. wtf?! Huh

either you have a serious mental problem or are paid to troll to spew your nonsense.

still, no one is listening.

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