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Author Topic: [BETA]Bitfinex.com first Bitcoin P2P lending platform for leverage trading  (Read 136603 times)
unclescrooge
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February 01, 2013, 10:34:16 AM
 #201

if i borrow BTC 60 days and then opend a long position.if btc price grow,but 60 days later this position will be closed auto?
I had to borrow again and buy again? Now Maximum lending time (days) is 60 days, the rate is 10%. if i borrow 100 BTC
after 60 days, how many rate should i pay? 100 X 10% X 60/365= 1.64btc ?

Yes, exactely. You can close your position before, but it won't last longer than what you borrowed.

One position can have (and often has) several credits, so when one of these expires, the position is only reduced.

For example, I have a user who is long since 2 months, and he regularly increase his position with new credits.

That's how it works for now.

Raphael

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unclescrooge
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February 01, 2013, 11:49:37 AM
 #202

So I've checked the numbers for our loans.

We currently have only 146 usd loans at VIR rate, and over 32000 usd at fixed rate. So the average really reflects the market rate ( at over 200% a year).

I will never say enough to traders to be careful when they choose to open a position, the daily rate is very very important and can make the difference between profit and loss of your position!

Still, I have changed a bit the way VIR are calculated: they now take into account the loans opened at vir, based on the average rate of the last 15 minutes.. It's a way to ponder the rate if ever the proportion of VIR loans increases.

There will still need adjustments to be made, but it's a first step.

Small security update:

When you request a withdrawal, you will receive an email directly. If you did not request the withdrawal, you can cancel the request by replying to this email. Withdrawal being manually processed, I'll be able to cancel it.

Raphael

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February 01, 2013, 01:17:35 PM
 #203

if i borrow 100 BTC after 60 days, how many rate should i pay? 100 X 10% X 60/365= 1.64btc ?
unclescrooge
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February 01, 2013, 01:32:20 PM
 #204

Long position borrows USD. So providing you open a long position of 100 btc at 20 USD/BTC and a rate of 50% a year, or 0.137% a day, you will pay:
0.137% *  100 * 20 * 60 days = 164.38 USD of interests.

For you to make a profit, the price of bitcoin would have to be at more than 20 + 1.644 usd (21.644 usd/btc) in 60 days (a 8.2% increase).

For long term buyer, I'd say to careful choose your loan rate, this is everything.

Raphael

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February 01, 2013, 01:37:59 PM
 #205

borrow usd rate is very high 90%-3300%, i can not open long p.
unclescrooge
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February 01, 2013, 01:47:23 PM
 #206

I know PAPASO, I know.

As I said some new money could be coming next week, I can't say much.

Meanwhile, you can post a borrow request: for example, on the "Lending" page, say "amount" = 3000 USD, rate 20% a year, period 60 or 90 or more days. Then click on "Borrow".

Your offer will appear on the last table "Unfilled credit demand/offers". Click on "notify", and if a lender is interested and take your loan offer, you will receive an email.

You will then see, on the "Trading page", how many BTC are reserved to you to go long, and you'll be able to use this bitcoins to go long.

Note: you pay interests as soon as you borrow money, even if you don't open a position immediately.

Best regards,
Raphael

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February 01, 2013, 02:01:19 PM
 #207

Security question:
print BTC on paper means nobody can attack and got btc?
unclescrooge
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February 01, 2013, 02:08:39 PM
 #208

Security question:
print BTC on paper means nobody can attack and got btc?

Yes, that means there is no hot wallet on the servers, I have the wallet on my computer, and there are digital and paper backup of the wallet in case something happen to my computer (we use the very secure Armory client and its awesome watch-only wallet feature to track deposits on Bitfinex side).

In other word, if a hacker manage to find an access to the servers, he won't be able to steal your bitcoins. That doesn't mean we don't take care of the security of our servers though Smiley.

On your side, don't forget to use google authentication if you can, and if you want, we can make an arrangement so that I proceed your withdrawal request only if I receive a confirmation by email from you.

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February 02, 2013, 01:55:07 AM
 #209

My question to everyone: we thought we'd leave the lenders fix their rates freely. But the rates are going up very high putting in danger traders profit. So my question is: should we limit the rate asked? If yes, what is acceptable?

This is the classical question: should a market be regulated when it is about to go astray? -- Or is the inherent regulation sufficient?
In our case this means: will traders be prudent enough not to go long using those insanely priced lend offers, even if this means to pass on some possible profit?

Since overall, this market place is still small, so all of this is a matter of conditioning and learning one's lessons. Thus I'd propose to watch the situation a while and see if such a self correction kicks in. If this doesn't happen, then on the long run those overpriced offers will damage the reputation of the platform and some counter action would be justified.

Regarding the level of a cap: Maybe 100% ?  Or 365%  ?
1% of $20/BTC means $0.2 price rise required per day to break even.
IMHO this seems to be the absolute limit of what could remotely be called "reasonable"
unclescrooge
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February 02, 2013, 04:19:06 PM
 #210

Hi,

After some discussion, and because in the team we all believe in free market, we'll never cap the interests rates.

We'll take specific steps for the trader to make the best informed decision possible (and maybe introduce a novice trader level).

Raphael

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February 02, 2013, 04:28:24 PM
 #211

Hi,

After some discussion, and because in the team we all believe in free market, we'll never cap the interests rates.

We'll take specific steps for the trader to make the best informed decision possible (and maybe introduce a novice trader level).

Raphael
just let traders select at which max rate they want to borrow! also the variable rate sucks, and i want to be able to choose not to borrow fund that way.

Also a bug:
if you close some of your borrowed funds that are used in an active position, there is a big delay where the position remains active and does not automatically reduce. reward goes to: 1t4pSEM2xyzCeGGNJMGSq3EnYoSeyR9ys

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
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February 02, 2013, 06:54:47 PM
 #212

Hello, I have a question.

How do you build a trailing stop order?

Let's asume the prize is 20$. If you want to put a trailing stop 0,2 $ below. What do you need to fill in the prize 19,8 , 0,2 or -0,2? Thank you

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February 02, 2013, 08:44:15 PM
 #213

Hello, I have a question.

How do you build a trailing stop order?

Let's asume the prize is 20$. If you want to put a trailing stop 0,2 $ below. What do you need to fill in the prize 19,8 , 0,2 or -0,2? Thank you
http://community.bitfinex.com/showwiki.php?title=Trailing-stop

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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February 02, 2013, 09:40:52 PM
 #214

How do you build a trailing stop order?

Let's asume the prize is 20$. If you want to put a trailing stop 0,2 $ below. What do you need to fill in the prize 19,8 , 0,2 or -0,2? Thank you
http://community.bitfinex.com/showwiki.php?title=Trailing-stop
actual price: 12
trailing-stop:0,5 USD => stop is at 12-0,5=11,5 USD
you are telling the system to place and move a stop-sell at 0,5 USD below the top price

Would you mind clarifying that a bit?
The question is not that we want to set a trailing stop 0.5 below current price. The question is what you actually need to enter into the form.

Since for entering a normal stop order you type the price of the stop, the most obvious thing to assume is that you do the same for a training stop. (and in Bitcoinica it was indeed this way). Also, the text above the entry box is labelled "price", which confirms that assumption.

Is that correct? I have my doubts, since I did experiments and it didn't behave as I'd expect https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=119745.msg1494785#msg1494785

If the engine actually expected you to enter the difference (absolute) or the offset (signed) to current price, this would explain that observed behaviour.
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February 03, 2013, 06:03:03 AM
 #215

example for 1 usd trail stop

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
Ichthyo
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February 03, 2013, 11:02:30 PM
 #216

example for 1 usd trail stop


So this input tells me that the trigger price is at 1 $ ?  See my point?

IMHO it should read something like "below current Bid by" or similar.
Since, if it is labelled "price" and for normal stop orders you have to enter a price, what is the most natural conclusion from a users POV?

From a programmers POV this seems like nitpicking, I know, so never mind.
Ichthyo
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February 03, 2013, 11:07:23 PM
 #217


Another observation: can you explain this P/L calculation.

When the position is 120 long  with base price == $20.7013
And the current highest Bid is: MTGOX     $20.75     160.1

Why then is the P/L calculated as: -$4.27   -0.171%     -$0.20

Is there some additional fee included, beyond the swap, or is the engine just updating with some (serious) delay?


A similar situation can be observerd regularily.
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February 03, 2013, 11:18:50 PM
 #218

So this input tells me that the trigger price is at 1 $ ? 
example for 1 usd trail stop
so if the current price is 20.64 the trail stop starts at 19.64

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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February 03, 2013, 11:19:53 PM
 #219

Is there some additional fee included, beyond the swap, or is the engine just updating with some (serious) delay?
it include mtgox fees since are the maximum fees

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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February 03, 2013, 11:52:22 PM
 #220

and while we're at those nasty little annoyances, how about that:

When I borrow funds offered for 1 day, the only way to get that loan is to enter a request for 1 day.
Now, the moment I've gotten that loan, I am unable to open a position for 1 day, since, by definition those funds are due in less than 1 day.

Same situation for 7 days. You need to get loans for 8 days if you want to open a position in the "7 days" category.


Again this is a case where the system behaves 100% logically correct, but just not the way the user expects it to behave.

For the user, "1 day" doesn't translate into precisely 86400 seconds -- the user wants to open a short-lived position in -- say -- the next two hours and it's OK for the user when this position is forcibly closed "the other day"
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