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Author Topic: [BETA]Bitfinex.com first Bitcoin P2P lending platform for leverage trading  (Read 136684 times)
Sukrim
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March 20, 2013, 11:37:14 PM
 #421

Hm, I guess something like "VIR 1 day average", "VIR 7 days average" etc.?

Sounds interesting but then also risky where to offer loans - but definitely a possible improvement, thanks! Cheesy

https://bitfinex.com <-- leveraged trading of BTCUSD, LTCUSD and LTCBTC (long and short) - 10% discount on fees for the first 30 days with this refcode: x5K9YtL3Zb
Mail me at Bitmessage: BM-BbiHiVv5qh858ULsyRDtpRrG9WjXN3xf
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March 21, 2013, 12:13:35 AM
 #422

Hm, I guess something like "VIR 1 day average", "VIR 7 days average" etc.?

Sounds interesting but then also risky where to offer loans - but definitely a possible improvement, thanks! Cheesy
1 7 14 30 60

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
unclescrooge
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March 21, 2013, 09:42:40 PM
 #423

Announcement:

We made a temporary change in the fee policy:
https://community.bitfinex.com/content.php/16-Temporary-change-in-fees-policy

In short, we have increased the Mtgox fees to average the requotes we get from them since their change into their API system. We are currently working on reestablishing the last fees schedule as fast as possible.

And the other hand, orders routed to Bitfinex have 0% fees.

Best regards
The Bitfinex team
superbit
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March 22, 2013, 02:47:31 AM
 #424

Can you walk me through a worst case scenario.

Let's say that a trader is leveraged on the max setting for $10,000 if bitcoin drops 40% how is it going to trigger in time to not have the lender lose any USD?

https://bitfinex.com/?refcode=UInJLQ5KpA <-- leveraged trading of BTCUSD, LTCUSD and LTCBTC (long and short) - 10% discount on fees for the first 30 days with the refcode
My feedback thread: Forum thread
flower1024
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March 22, 2013, 07:04:08 AM
 #425

Announcement:

We made a temporary change in the fee policy:
https://community.bitfinex.com/content.php/16-Temporary-change-in-fees-policy

In short, we have increased the Mtgox fees to average the requotes we get from them since their change into their API system. We are currently working on reestablishing the last fees schedule as fast as possible.

And the other hand, orders routed to Bitfinex have 0% fees.

Best regards
The Bitfinex team

i think 0.5% trading fees are ok.
but why do you put 10% fee on your lenders? they have nothing to do with mtgox...

10% is insane! (ok current 200% USD APY is insane too)

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March 22, 2013, 07:14:37 AM
 #426

but why do you put 10% fee on your lenders? they have nothing to do with mtgox...
to push IR down
( i personally i am open to ideas to get the ir down and dont have loans at 100000000% or 2000000% )
10% is insane! (ok current 200% USD APY is insane too)
is 10% from the earning interest borrowers dont get the loan at 10% bigger interest rate
10% if from what a lender earn so if a lender earns 1 USD per day  0,10 cents goes to BFX

example you lend out 100 USD at 400% IR

100*400%= 400

Interest per day 400/365=1.09

the BFX cut from there is 1.09*10%=0.109

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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March 22, 2013, 07:18:01 AM
 #427

but why do you put 10% fee on your lenders? they have nothing to do with mtgox...
to push IR down

LOL
you mean: push IR down for lenders but not for lendees Wink

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March 22, 2013, 07:26:01 AM
 #428

i think 0.5% trading fees are ok.
but why do you put 10% fee on your lenders? they have nothing to do with mtgox...

My guess is the idea is also to incentivise using the internal exchange (by reducing fees there). Basically this is a good thing, since it is independent from Mt.Gox. Of course then the missing revenue has to come from somewhere else.
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March 22, 2013, 07:26:35 AM
 #429

LOL
you mean: push IR down for lenders but not for lendees Wink
if you have any ideas how to tackle this PM me on BFX forum

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
myself
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March 22, 2013, 07:34:02 AM
 #430

i think 0.5% trading fees are ok.
but why do you put 10% fee on your lenders? they have nothing to do with mtgox...

My guess is the idea is also to incentivise using the internal exchange (by reducing fees there). Basically this is a good thing, since it is independent from Mt.Gox. Of course then the missing revenue has to come from somewhere else.
when we get  a no lagging api from mtgox all fees will go back to normal

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
unclescrooge
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March 22, 2013, 09:18:24 AM
 #431

Announcement:

We made a temporary change in the fee policy:
https://community.bitfinex.com/content.php/16-Temporary-change-in-fees-policy

In short, we have increased the Mtgox fees to average the requotes we get from them since their change into their API system. We are currently working on reestablishing the last fees schedule as fast as possible.

And the other hand, orders routed to Bitfinex have 0% fees.

Best regards
The Bitfinex team

i think 0.5% trading fees are ok.
but why do you put 10% fee on your lenders? they have nothing to do with mtgox...

10% is insane! (ok current 200% USD APY is insane too)

Hello Flower,

This is only temporary. We are in touch with Mtgox to get a (paid) dedicated link between BFX and them. The idea is to not increase too much fees for traders, so they continue to trade.
I know 10% can look high, but you have to put that in perspective with the current average rate of 220% a year.

We really want you to understand that we are making everything to make your experience profitable. So far our users, traders and lenders, are making a lot of profit with us, and we are proud of that. We plan on making your experience even more profitable Smiley

Raphael
Can you walk me through a worst case scenario.

Let's say that a trader is leveraged on the max setting for $10,000 if bitcoin drops 40% how is it going to trigger in time to not have the lender lose any USD?

Short answer is the loss is on Bitfinex. Now I can't announce anything yet, but we are preparing a financial backup. You probably imagine how Bitfinex has attracted the attention of some investors, and how we will used that to insure (with proper insurance) our user funds. For now, the losses would be rolled over until we have setup insurances.

Of course, things in the "real" world move far more slowly than we'd like them to move. I thus can't give you any ETA on this.

If you any more questions, don't hesitate to ask.

Best regards,
Raphael
Sukrim
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March 22, 2013, 01:24:26 PM
 #432

but why do you put 10% fee on your lenders? they have nothing to do with mtgox...
to push IR down
As I said before, lenders are in a worse position if the market moves in the other direction. Take a look at the btc lending market right now for example.

I saw about 3% gain in USD from the current rally, that went up for far more than 10 times that amount. Yes, lending is more secure which is why I do it - but once the rate dips the people I lend to might get force executed and then I'm left with a bunch of money nobody wants, just like btc right now.

The asymmetric thing is that a lender can't know beforehand how long a position will last. If I can force a lendee to keep my money (and be able to pay the interest) for the time he actually asks it from me I'd be more than a willing to get less interest. Right now though the high rates just reflect the fact that lendees also just have short positions that are incredibly profitable even with 0.5% interest per day and more. I today tried to move away from vir and already filled 350%(!)offers... And I think even then it might be profitable for lendees, though one has to remember: Weekend is coming!

https://bitfinex.com <-- leveraged trading of BTCUSD, LTCUSD and LTCBTC (long and short) - 10% discount on fees for the first 30 days with this refcode: x5K9YtL3Zb
Mail me at Bitmessage: BM-BbiHiVv5qh858ULsyRDtpRrG9WjXN3xf
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March 22, 2013, 02:05:55 PM
 #433

once the rate dips the people I lend to might get force executed and then I'm left with a bunch of money nobody wants
Bunch of money nobody wants, show me such Cheesy
Seriously, yes the idle USD is a problem, that could be solved either by forced length of contract or more complex re-lending automation with adjustable minimum rates or such. Nonbinding margin rate time periods are understandably more favorable to traders, but maybe there could be option for binding times for lower % rate?

What would be at least required to ease the current situation is an API.

Quote
I saw about 3% gain in USD from the current rally, that went up for far more than 10 times that amount.

Right I also think the lending rates are not outrageous at all in this market situation. I was able to secure 3400% APY for a day, yet this actually LOST US MONEY compared to having kept the BTC!

Sukrim
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March 22, 2013, 04:11:49 PM
 #434

Bunch of money nobody wants, show me such Cheesy
>50 BTC of mine currently up for grabs... together with ~1300 other BTC at VIR.
Loan demand: 0 BTC.

Of course 4digit APRs look ridiciulous, but these won't stay forever and BTCUSD currently shows far crazier APRs than anything I've even seen offered as a joke. Also these high interest (where interest = ~1/2 of money earned) loans so far seem to stay open for only short periods of time. The longer the position is active, the more important the interest on the loan.

If I converted my BTC to USD to gain on these "too high" 400% APRs, it might take me quite some time (depending on if the rally goes on) until I'm able again to even afford my BTC back. At that point of time however every lendee would have already realized their loss probably and switched to cheaper loans.

Again, current rates might seem crazy, but they are still only a very small cut of profits of traders. They might mess up 30 day VIR once the market goes down a bit though. Wink

https://bitfinex.com <-- leveraged trading of BTCUSD, LTCUSD and LTCBTC (long and short) - 10% discount on fees for the first 30 days with this refcode: x5K9YtL3Zb
Mail me at Bitmessage: BM-BbiHiVv5qh858ULsyRDtpRrG9WjXN3xf
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March 22, 2013, 09:29:35 PM
 #435

Seriously, yes the idle USD is a problem, that could be solved either by forced length of contract or more complex re-lending automation with adjustable minimum rates or such. Nonbinding margin rate time periods are understandably more favorable to traders, but maybe there could be option for binding times for lower % rate?

From a lenders POV this looks reasonable, but any more complicated instrument makes the handling for the traders more difficult. Personally I do both, lending and trading. The lending part creates a low but constant nice revenue stream, while the trading is more like 3 times a medium sized loss and then one huge gain, so at bottom line, it levels out.

While we could continue forever to conjure more and more involved lending automatisms, why don't we just rely on the market? Lenders should just offer their money at a rate which seems reasonable, overall (taking the risk into account). If this rate is 600% APY, then fine. If VIR goes up to 450% as a consequence, then fine too. The whole situation is priced in.

I think what the Bitfinex people did with this platform is really an achievement. Recall one year ago: everyone was trying out Bitconica, and there you were at the mercy of an generally non-transparent engine, which set the spread in a more or less cunning way. And we never got past the luring suspicion that this engine was programmed in a way just to scalp the trades off their money. Contrast this to the situation we have here: the workings of the engine are mostly transparent, and we get the real market spread plus the Mt.Gox fees. And we pay what lenders on a free market deem appropriate as an exchange for their money offers.
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March 22, 2013, 09:44:39 PM
 #436

well lenders can be interested a Interest Rate Swaps for VIR loans (yet another feature on the todo list) in order to hedge against VIR changes

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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March 22, 2013, 09:54:14 PM
 #437

For the VIR is there some way to see what it is?
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March 22, 2013, 09:58:28 PM
 #438

For the VIR is there some way to see what it is?
https://bitfinex.com/pages/stats

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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March 22, 2013, 10:54:23 PM
 #439

Ah... I was going to lend some BTC because btcjam hasn't been so great but... no demand! Guess I have to wait for a falling market.

Crypto supporter!
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March 22, 2013, 11:08:26 PM
 #440

Ah... I was going to lend some BTC because btcjam hasn't been so great but... no demand! Guess I have to wait for a falling market.

...and in this case you would be better off selling your BTC and offering USD for loan -- but wait, again a bad idea  Wink


Bottom line is: lending is not the most profitable way of using one's money,
but it creates a constant revenue and it is by far not so risky as day trading.
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