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Author Topic: [BETA]Bitfinex.com first Bitcoin P2P lending platform for leverage trading  (Read 136584 times)
Sukrim
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February 20, 2013, 11:07:54 AM
 #281

Maybe you can change the issue with short loans (1 day, 7 days) in such a way that if I lend for X days, I get my money back in max. X * 24 + 24 hours? This would mean I offer a loan for 1 day on Monday 00:00. The whole Monday someone can take of that loan and use it until Tuesday. Earliest Tuesday 00:00 and latest Wednesday 00:00 I get the money back and available in my account.

I think that reasoning makes some sense (in my head it does) - and it allows also 1 day loans. After all, I WANT to loan out that money, but I might need it back quickly (or to give out another loan). In the end you'd add a 24 hour buffer "in front" of the loan period to take up the loan.

I see a few different scenarios possible then:
The loan offer is taken within these 24 hours and ends X days later, then gets reposted or not.
The loan offer is not taken within these 24 hours. Then (if I didn't want to repost, because I might need the money after X days) I'd like an option to automatically reduce the offer by 1 day and be reposted (e.g. 7 days on Monday --> 6 days on Tuesday etc.).

https://bitfinex.com <-- leveraged trading of BTCUSD, LTCUSD and LTCBTC (long and short) - 10% discount on fees for the first 30 days with this refcode: x5K9YtL3Zb
Mail me at Bitmessage: BM-BbiHiVv5qh858ULsyRDtpRrG9WjXN3xf
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myself
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February 20, 2013, 12:53:27 PM
 #282

and now is on the list  Grin

 Huh What is on what list?

the issue Ichthyo posted

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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February 20, 2013, 01:32:02 PM
 #283

Maybe you can change the issue with short loans (1 day, 7 days) in such a way that if I lend for X days, I get my money back in max. X * 24 + 24 hours?
the time frame 1 7 14 30 60 is not set in stone, there are user that lend funds for 2 days 8 days 15 day 90 120 90 and even 365, so I don't know until what point this is a issue

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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February 20, 2013, 01:53:07 PM
 #284

As I understand it, if I put up a lending offer, my funds are locked for the duration of that offer (e.g. "Willing to lend 10 BTC for 3 days starting on Monday, 00:00 for XX%" - I can access that money and any eventual interest then on Thursday, 00:00 with the current model).

However, a lot of people don't seem to understand that an offer of 1 day is completely useless and can never be filled, if people taking these offers can also only specify min. 1 day duration. As soon as I put up my offer, it will be unlocked in less than 1 full day, so nobody can actually borrow it for 1 full day.

Either allow only min. 2 day lending offers (if keeping min. 1 day options) or make offers locked for longer than entered, so people seeing an offer for 1 day can actually borrow that money for a 1 day position. Either way it's also an interface issue - to allow people to borrow money for 24 hours (=1 day) I need to enter at least 2 days. Same goes for someone wanting to borrow for 1 week (7*24 hours) where I need to enter at least 8 days. Then however I confuse people who want to borrow for 2 days that cannot take an offer for 2 days etc.

You could display FLOOR(remaining hours/24) instead as "days available" for people looking to borrow money, this would be the actual time frame they can borrow it anyways.

https://bitfinex.com <-- leveraged trading of BTCUSD, LTCUSD and LTCBTC (long and short) - 10% discount on fees for the first 30 days with this refcode: x5K9YtL3Zb
Mail me at Bitmessage: BM-BbiHiVv5qh858ULsyRDtpRrG9WjXN3xf
ThaddeusB
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February 20, 2013, 03:33:14 PM
 #285

Maybe you can change the issue with short loans (1 day, 7 days) in such a way that if I lend for X days, I get my money back in max. X * 24 + 24 hours? This would mean I offer a loan for 1 day on Monday 00:00. The whole Monday someone can take of that loan and use it until Tuesday. Earliest Tuesday 00:00 and latest Wednesday 00:00 I get the money back and available in my account.

I think that reasoning makes some sense (in my head it does) - and it allows also 1 day loans. After all, I WANT to loan out that money, but I might need it back quickly (or to give out another loan). In the end you'd add a 24 hour buffer "in front" of the loan period to take up the loan.

I see a few different scenarios possible then:
The loan offer is taken within these 24 hours and ends X days later, then gets reposted or not.
The loan offer is not taken within these 24 hours. Then (if I didn't want to repost, because I might need the money after X days) I'd like an option to automatically reduce the offer by 1 day and be reposted (e.g. 7 days on Monday --> 6 days on Tuesday etc.).

This is a common complaint.  If a user requests a loan for 7 days (as an example) and then goes to use it 1 minute later, they can't select 7 days on the trading screen.  While technically correct, this defies common sense.  The simpliest solution would be just to covertly add a few hours to the loan length on loan offers such that a lender offer of 7 days is technically 7 days and 3 hours, a borrower request of 1 day is really 27 hours, and so on.  I think doing so would end most of these complaints with very minimal programming changes.
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February 20, 2013, 07:53:03 PM
 #286

But then an 1 day offer from 4 hours ago would still not be possible to take, while one 2.5 hours ago works - even worse user experience imho.!

I'd rather either have a 24 hour buffer time added and on loan taker side having only the remaining days displayed (less than 24 hours = 0 days!) or something along these lines.

Edit:
I wanted to deposit a few coins:
"Bitcoin
Bitcoin watchonly daemon temporary down please come back later "

Also please graph + display the variable rate(s) again. Smiley

https://bitfinex.com <-- leveraged trading of BTCUSD, LTCUSD and LTCBTC (long and short) - 10% discount on fees for the first 30 days with this refcode: x5K9YtL3Zb
Mail me at Bitmessage: BM-BbiHiVv5qh858ULsyRDtpRrG9WjXN3xf
ThaddeusB
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February 20, 2013, 08:17:25 PM
 #287

But then an 1 day offer from 4 hours ago would still not be possible to take, while one 2.5 hours ago works - even worse user experience imho.!

I'd rather either have a 24 hour buffer time added and on loan taker side having only the remaining days displayed (less than 24 hours = 0 days!) or something along these lines.

Edit:
I wanted to deposit a few coins:
"Bitcoin
Bitcoin watchonly daemon temporary down please come back later "

Also please graph + display the variable rate(s) again. Smiley

How is "works after 2.5h but not 4h" worse than "fails to work 1 minute after borrowing"?  A 24 hour buffer would also work, as would any other number.  The only thing that completely fails is a 0 second buffer, which is what we have now.
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February 20, 2013, 08:20:14 PM
 #288

But then an 1 day offer from 4 hours ago would still not be possible to take, while one 2.5 hours ago works - even worse user experience imho.!
I have no idea what you want to do or want to say
i did not get any problem to open a 1day position

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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February 20, 2013, 08:40:48 PM
 #289

At current BTC lending offers (120 days variable rate, 15 days, 5 days, etc. with fixed rates), try to open a position for 120 days where you borrow the BTC for 120 days 10 minutes before that. In my theory you'd not be able to do that (having a 120 days position) or get the 365 days 888888.0% "offer" instead.

https://bitfinex.com <-- leveraged trading of BTCUSD, LTCUSD and LTCBTC (long and short) - 10% discount on fees for the first 30 days with this refcode: x5K9YtL3Zb
Mail me at Bitmessage: BM-BbiHiVv5qh858ULsyRDtpRrG9WjXN3xf
ThaddeusB
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February 20, 2013, 08:56:40 PM
 #290

But then an 1 day offer from 4 hours ago would still not be possible to take, while one 2.5 hours ago works - even worse user experience imho.!
I have no idea what you want to do or want to say
i did not get any problem to open a 1day position

The problem is that if you reserve a one day loan, it is impossible to use it.  If you reserve a 7 day loan, you can't use it on a 7 day position, and so on.  Intuitively, if you reserve a 7 day loan, you expect it to be usable for a 7 day position.  I realize by the time you go to open the position there are only 6 days, 23 hours, and 59 minutes left so you can't, but this is not what one would expect to happen.  Sukrim is asking you to make the software go by calendar days such that if I reserve some funds for 7 days at noon I can use them up until midnight to open a 7 day position.  I offered that it would be easier (i.e. less new programming) to make the software secretly add a few hours so that one has time to act on the loan.  Thus, if I reserve funds for 7 days, I am really reserving them for 7 days and X hours.  This way I could then use the reserved funds to open a position of same length as the loan, as one would intuitively expect.


To make things more clear, I have added a $10 10% 1 day loan offer to the market.  Go to the lending page and reserve it, then go to the trading page.  You will find you have no reserves to open a 1 day position.  This is the problem that Sukrim (and several other people recently) have complained about.
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February 20, 2013, 08:59:27 PM
 #291

At current BTC lending offers (120 days variable rate, 15 days, 5 days, etc. with fixed rates), try to open a position for 120 days where you borrow the BTC for 120 days 10 minutes before that. In my theory you'd not be able to do that (having a 120 days position) or get the 365 days 888888.0% "offer" instead.
on the position drop down menu you have 1 7 14 30 and 60  there is no 120
the point of borrowing money for 120 days is to reserve and use them on the next 120 days reserving funds period and position period are 2 separate things


if you plan to open a position for 7 days then borrows for 8 ? or for 9 or 10, is so hard to put 8 instead of 7 on the Period field ?


just a example how I reserved 0.1 BTC for 3 days from a 7 day maximum time offer


Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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February 20, 2013, 09:07:27 PM
 #292

At current BTC lending offers (120 days variable rate, 15 days, 5 days, etc. with fixed rates), try to open a position for 120 days where you borrow the BTC for 120 days 10 minutes before that. In my theory you'd not be able to do that (having a 120 days position) or get the 365 days 888888.0% "offer" instead.
on the position drop down menu you have 1 7 14 30 and 60  there is no 120
the point of borrowing money for 120 days is to reserve and use them on the next 120 days reserving funds period and position period are 2 separate things
*sigh*
Ok, once I can deposit BTC, I'll put up an offer for lending them for 1 day - then you can reserve to borrow them and a few seconds/minutes later try to open a 1 day position with these...

https://bitfinex.com <-- leveraged trading of BTCUSD, LTCUSD and LTCBTC (long and short) - 10% discount on fees for the first 30 days with this refcode: x5K9YtL3Zb
Mail me at Bitmessage: BM-BbiHiVv5qh858ULsyRDtpRrG9WjXN3xf
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February 20, 2013, 09:13:00 PM
 #293

Ok, once I can deposit BTC, I'll put up an offer for lending them for 1 day - then you can reserve to borrow them and a few seconds/minutes later try to open a 1 day position with these...
the minimum amount of time for a position is 1 day and that loans are used by traders that dont reserve the funds but they go directly on the spot market when open the position, 1 day loan offers are used but not via the reserve system

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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February 20, 2013, 09:32:55 PM
 #294

As somebody who mainly wants to lend, I'd like to have a feature like the following:

"I want my money back on the xx.xx.xxxx with interest rate yy%/variable".

Then whoever wants to borrow money from that stash, no matter if it is for a day, a minute or a month can reserve/use it for some time (and pay the interest while doing so). These timeframes have to be chosen so that latest on the xx.xx.xxxx the position is closed again and I can get back my money + interest accumulated.

I actually don't care if it gets used for just 30 1 day positions or 1 30 day position, as long as the interest is the same and I get it back on time.

As I understand it, if I offer 1 BTC for 7 days, I actually don't know and can't control when this position will be taken by somebody - it might be that it stays in the book for some time and then then the xx.xx.xxxx arrives someone sees it as a good offer and locks(borrows) it. This means I'd need to relist the position every day with 1 day less until the xx.xx.xxxx to emulate what I described.


Edit:
Concerning the problem mentioned before (reserving for 1 day) - maybe make this more clear/prominent to users? It seems to irritate people that think they need to reserve something or who want to snatch a nice lending offer that they then can't use for their desired position time.

https://bitfinex.com <-- leveraged trading of BTCUSD, LTCUSD and LTCBTC (long and short) - 10% discount on fees for the first 30 days with this refcode: x5K9YtL3Zb
Mail me at Bitmessage: BM-BbiHiVv5qh858ULsyRDtpRrG9WjXN3xf
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February 20, 2013, 09:37:17 PM
 #295

sorry but the lending system dont work like that

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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February 20, 2013, 09:51:37 PM
 #296

Well, then it should! Wink

It's a feature request, not a request for explanation.

https://bitfinex.com <-- leveraged trading of BTCUSD, LTCUSD and LTCBTC (long and short) - 10% discount on fees for the first 30 days with this refcode: x5K9YtL3Zb
Mail me at Bitmessage: BM-BbiHiVv5qh858ULsyRDtpRrG9WjXN3xf
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February 20, 2013, 09:56:47 PM
 #297

Ok, once I can deposit BTC, I'll put up an offer for lending them for 1 day - then you can reserve to borrow them and a few seconds/minutes later try to open a 1 day position with these...
the minimum amount of time for a position is 1 day and that loans are used by traders that dont reserve the funds but they go directly on the spot market when open the position, 1 day loan offers are used but not via the reserve system

For crying out loud, I think everyone understands *why* you can't reserve funds for 7 days and then use them on a 7-day position, etc.  The thing is people do not *expect* it to work that way and would be easy to fix.  I don't know why you insist the half dozen (or more) people who've complained about this are wrong to expect the system to work one way.  Wouldn't it be a lot easier just to fix the system to match what people expect rather than constantly having to explain to your customer why it doesn't do what they expect/want it to?

And incidentally, it is actually impossible for anyone to use my 1-day 10% loan.  If you try to open a 1-day position you will get the VIR even though it is close to 60%.  There is literally no way for anyone to use a 1-day fixed rate loan, and yet you insist this is not a problem.  Roll Eyes  Previously you complained that people were "too lazy" to go to the lending screen, but if they do they might not be able to get the loan length they want because they (basically) will lose a day off the loan length the second they accept it.  
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February 20, 2013, 10:55:47 PM
 #298

@ThaddeusB

1) if a loans if set for maximum 7 days and you add a buffer for 8 hours that's breach of contract since BFX would change the loan conditions for lender
2) if someone borrows funds for 7 days and BFX adds a buffer for 8 hours that's another change on loan conditions since the contract was for 7 days not 7 days and x hours
3) and who should pay for the 8h buffer time BFX because it adds the buffer or the borrower ?
4) i am a borrower and i dont need the buffer why i should pay the interest for that time ?


is quite clear that this issues are easy avoided when borrower takes the loan for 8 9 or 10 days 

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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February 20, 2013, 11:07:52 PM
 #299

And incidentally, it is actually impossible for anyone to use my 1-day 10% loan.  If you try to open a 1-day position you will get the VIR even though it is close to 60%.  There is literally no way for anyone to use a 1-day fixed rate loan, and yet you insist this is not a problem.  Roll Eyes  Previously you complained that people were "too lazy" to go to the lending screen, but if they do they might not be able to get the loan length they want because they (basically) will lose a day off the loan length the second they accept it.  
i am getting tired of this to be honest, i dont know if this is intentional or not, here is what i have done

1) i reserved the loan at 10% apy, first part of the image
2) open a 0.1 long position, middle of the image
3) i used a part of the loan and there is another available



Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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February 20, 2013, 11:18:37 PM
 #300

Btw. it might be nice to let people decide when not reserving funds to still choose where they borrow from. You could still pre-fill with whatever you want, but if somebody WANTS to have a worse rate (e.g. because it's fixed instead of dynamic), let them have it!

Also with your given example: Who pays the interest in the last 2 minutes of that position being open? How long does it take until you are no longer able to use these USD for 1 day positions? When exactly does the lender get back the USD? 24 hours after you clicked on "reserve" or 2 minutes later, after your position is finished?

https://bitfinex.com <-- leveraged trading of BTCUSD, LTCUSD and LTCBTC (long and short) - 10% discount on fees for the first 30 days with this refcode: x5K9YtL3Zb
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