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Author Topic: [BETA]Bitfinex.com first Bitcoin P2P lending platform for leverage trading  (Read 134446 times)
Ichthyo
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March 26, 2013, 02:26:39 AM
 #481

What I mean is:
 you can reverse erroenous swap payments, which were caused by a bug. Simply because that is internal to the platfrom.

OTOH, if I close my position now, this is an external effect, i.e. the damage is then permanent
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Ichthyo
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March 26, 2013, 02:30:08 AM
 #482

Ufff....
Rates have dropped again to normal values
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March 26, 2013, 02:31:47 AM
 #483

if ppl take loans at insane rates this loans push up the VIR that's not a bug

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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March 26, 2013, 02:43:05 AM
 #484

I can't accept that argument.

Some weeks ago, we had an incident, and we discussed the consequences.
As a result you implemented two changes
  • we can limit the rates for fixed rate loans
  • you implemented a damping formula into the VIR calculation to protect us against being ruined by VIR rates going out of control

Thus, what happened now is clearly that that protection on the VIR rates didn't work properly.
In the discussion, there was the proposal that we can place a fixed cap on the VIR rates. In the end result, the conclusion was not to implement a cap, since the damping factor was deemed apropriate.

Simply put, it can't be that an automatism rips of thousands $ of swap while the trader might be sleeping or otherwise there is no way to react. It is ok for me, if someone out of carelessness takes an overpriced loan and pays the rates. I did that myself and I payed those rates. But I can't accept an automatism which sucks away my gains and my collateral, where I have no option to take effective countermeasures.

This is an issue which needs to be addressed and solved somehow.
We're in beta exatly to work out such problems



Right now I can keep my position open, and I will do so
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March 26, 2013, 02:49:40 AM
 #485

I think that was only when you took the loans
Maximum margin rate? XX%/day

wait for Raphael answer I cant help you with this, I just told you what happens if  ppl take expensive loans if you go to the lending page and take all that expensive loans the VIR will go UP and that's not a bug that system does make the average even if is a small IR or a huge IR, dont be mad at me for pointing this out

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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March 26, 2013, 02:52:35 AM
 #486

How does the loan offer/demand matching algorithm work?

Currently I see 13 VIR BTC loans, totaling 986.79 BTC. They're listed as having a maximum lending time of 0 days. Does that mean there's no limit on the lending time, or is the lending time of VIR loan offers just hidden?

I assume that if I offer a loan with a longer maximum lending time than another offer at the same interest rate, my offer will be taken first? What if both offers have the same max time?
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March 26, 2013, 02:53:13 AM
 #487

Is the average loan weight not a weighted average?  I just don't see how one stupid rate would make the average rate rise that high if it's waited?

https://bitfinex.com/?refcode=UInJLQ5KpA <-- leveraged trading of BTCUSD, LTCUSD and LTCBTC (long and short) - 10% discount on fees for the first 30 days with the refcode
My feedback thread: Forum thread
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March 26, 2013, 02:56:41 AM
 #488

I currently don't lend out Variable as I seem to do WAY better.  This is where I sit right now.


USD Current rate (APY):   470.75%

And, it could be a lot better but I put out $250 for 90 days at 199% when I was first learning the site and just took the best offer that I saw being asked for before I realized that people buying on margin talk in %per day so term is what counts.  It's tough to adjust loan rates accurately daily when lenders enter it annually.

From what I have learned if I lend it out long term I'll get much better rates.  That make sense?

https://bitfinex.com/?refcode=UInJLQ5KpA <-- leveraged trading of BTCUSD, LTCUSD and LTCBTC (long and short) - 10% discount on fees for the first 30 days with the refcode
My feedback thread: Forum thread
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March 26, 2013, 03:00:20 AM
 #489

Is the average loan weight not a weighted average?  I just don't see how one stupid rate would make the average rate rise that high if it's waited?
is the weighted average for last 30 days loans


Quote
loan 1 is 10 USD at 10% APY
loan 2 is 10 USD at 30% APY
loan 3 is 100 USD at 50% APY
VIR = 45%, ( 10 * 10% + 10 * 30% + 100 * 50% / (120)= 45% )

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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March 26, 2013, 03:05:24 AM
 #490

I think that was only when you took the loans
Maximum margin rate? XX%/day

I had that set to 1 or 2% consistently. Sometimes I even take loans of 900% during a run, but I'll close them immediately afterwards.


I just told you what happens if  ppl take expensive loans if you go to the lending page and take all that expensive loans the VIR will go UP and that's not a bug that system does make the average even if is a small IR or a huge IR, dont be mad at me for pointing this out

I am certainly in no way mad at you, for sure!


But my general argument stands. If someone can poison the VIR rates by taking some loan, this counts as an attack vector against your platform, at least as a serious misdesign. Such is an issue that must be addressed and solved somehow. Otherwise the VIR feature needs to be removed, since it can be used reliably.

Right now, an important fraction of the overall liquidity is available as VIR. It was an improvement that you allowed to exclude VIR loans, and since then we have also some amount of fixed rate loans below VIR. The way I understand your improved VIR calculation formula is that now it takes the average rates of a whole month into account. If this causes the VIR to rise slowly, that would not pose any problems, since the maket has time to react (i.e. people can now switch to fixed loans, and lenders can offer fixed). But if that change happens just in some minutes, the feature as such is defunct. Why? simply, because as a trader, you can not use the VIR liquidity to open a position without taiking an unmanageable risk. Well, that is my stance and this is certainly debatable.

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March 26, 2013, 03:05:52 AM
 #491

Is the average loan weight not a weighted average?  I just don't see how one stupid rate would make the average rate rise that high if it's waited?
is the weighted average for last 30 days loans


Quote
loan 1 is 10 USD at 10% APY
loan 2 is 10 USD at 30% APY
loan 3 is 100 USD at 50% APY
VIR = 45%, ( 10 * 10% + 10 * 30% + 100 * 50% / (120)= 45% )

So why not just add in how long the loan has been outstanding over the last 30 days into the equation.  Then the only way a stupid rate will effect the price is if someone not only takes one out but keeps it for a few days.  The interest cost to them wouldn't be worth it.

https://bitfinex.com/?refcode=UInJLQ5KpA <-- leveraged trading of BTCUSD, LTCUSD and LTCBTC (long and short) - 10% discount on fees for the first 30 days with the refcode
My feedback thread: Forum thread
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March 26, 2013, 03:09:30 AM
 #492

Profit share loans would be better than VIR.

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March 26, 2013, 03:11:56 AM
 #493

Profit share loans would be better than VIR.

As long as the lender could be guaranteed some kind of return.  Maybe borrower could have option of a fixed loan or a loan at a lower rate and X% of profits.

https://bitfinex.com/?refcode=UInJLQ5KpA <-- leveraged trading of BTCUSD, LTCUSD and LTCBTC (long and short) - 10% discount on fees for the first 30 days with the refcode
My feedback thread: Forum thread
superbit
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March 26, 2013, 03:13:43 AM
 #494

On a side note, my loans getting paid out are not renewing even if I have them set too.

https://bitfinex.com/?refcode=UInJLQ5KpA <-- leveraged trading of BTCUSD, LTCUSD and LTCBTC (long and short) - 10% discount on fees for the first 30 days with the refcode
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March 26, 2013, 03:13:50 AM
 #495

Profit share loans would be better than VIR.
that need to include also the losses

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
myself
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March 26, 2013, 03:14:38 AM
 #496

On a side note, my loans getting paid out are not renewing even if I have them set too.
the payment is made at 00:00 UTC

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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March 26, 2013, 03:15:37 AM
 #497

On a side note, my loans getting paid out are not renewing even if I have them set too.
the payment is made at 00:00 UTC

Why wouldn't they auto-renew right after getting paid out when I can log back in and lend the money out immediately?

https://bitfinex.com/?refcode=UInJLQ5KpA <-- leveraged trading of BTCUSD, LTCUSD and LTCBTC (long and short) - 10% discount on fees for the first 30 days with the refcode
My feedback thread: Forum thread
myself
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March 26, 2013, 03:17:51 AM
 #498

On a side note, my loans getting paid out are not renewing even if I have them set too.
the payment is made at 00:00 UTC

Why wouldn't they auto-renew right after getting paid out when I can log back in and lend the money out immediately?
my bad i was thinking about the interest on the loans (bad english)

if the loans have auto renew set ON then the system post the loans again for you under same conditions, after the loans are given back by the traders

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
superbit
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March 26, 2013, 03:20:05 AM
 #499

On a side note, my loans getting paid out are not renewing even if I have them set too.
the payment is made at 00:00 UTC

Why wouldn't they auto-renew right after getting paid out when I can log back in and lend the money out immediately?
my bad i was thinking about the interest on the loans (bad english)

if the loans have auto renew set ON then the system post the loans again for you under same conditions, after the loans are given back by the traders

That's what I am saying isn't working.  I had 2 paid off about 30 min ago and they didn't auto-renew

https://bitfinex.com/?refcode=UInJLQ5KpA <-- leveraged trading of BTCUSD, LTCUSD and LTCBTC (long and short) - 10% discount on fees for the first 30 days with the refcode
My feedback thread: Forum thread
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March 26, 2013, 03:23:04 AM
 #500

That's what I am saying isn't working.  I had 2 paid off about 30 min ago and they didn't auto-renew
you have to set the auto renew when you post the offer

is working since the 10000010.0% offer is back on the lending page

can you make a test plz ? put 1 USD at 1000% APY for 500 days i take it and pay back the loan to see if get reposted

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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