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Author Topic: [BETA]Bitfinex.com first Bitcoin P2P lending platform for leverage trading  (Read 136684 times)
myself
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February 20, 2013, 11:28:53 PM
 #301

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Btw. it might be nice to let people decide when not reserving funds to still choose where they borrow from. You could still pre-fill with whatever you want, but if somebody WANTS to have a worse rate (e.g. because it's fixed instead of dynamic), let them have it!
BTW do you even check before post ?




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Also with your given example: Who pays the interest in the last 2 minutes of that position being open?
How long does it take until you are no longer able to use these USD for 1 day positions? When exactly does the lender get back the USD? 24 hours after you clicked on "reserve" or 2 minutes later, after your position is finished?
the borrower pay for the loan IR and when the loan time is over the borrower get forced executed at market no matter if the position still have time
edit2: i just remember that i had this on the wiki https://community.bitfinex.com/showwiki.php?title=Forced+executed



edit: this just happen



Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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February 20, 2013, 11:37:18 PM
 #302

Well, then it should! Wink

It's a feature request, not a request for explanation.
i am totally against that since that's the path for market rigging since will give the opportunity to a lender to create a market event based on time
example: I can put a load of USD at low interest rate until 01/04/2013 and is likelly that the funds will be used until the last day because the loan in cheap then i can create a bet that the price will drop at that day and like that win the bet

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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February 21, 2013, 12:08:50 AM
 #303

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Btw. it might be nice to let people decide when not reserving funds to still choose where they borrow from. You could still pre-fill with whatever you want, but if somebody WANTS to have a worse rate (e.g. because it's fixed instead of dynamic), let them have it!
BTW do you even check before post ?
As I wrote I'm unable to deposit BTC, so no I can not check, since I'm unable to put any money on the platform.

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February 21, 2013, 12:12:53 AM
 #304

As I wrote I'm unable to deposit BTC, so no I can not check, since I'm unable to put any money on the platform.
then make a question not a statement Tongue example

i will check if there can be made any deposits


Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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February 21, 2013, 12:33:40 AM
 #305

Well, then it should! Wink

It's a feature request, not a request for explanation.
i am totally against that since that's the path for market rigging since will give the opportunity to a lender to create a market event based on time
example: I can put a load of USD at low interest rate until 01/04/2013 and is likelly that the funds will be used until the last day because the loan in cheap then i can create a bet that the price will drop at that day and like that win the bet
If a single person lending money (menaing NO leverage) on a leveraged platform can make the BTC price drop, they could do it also on their own. Let's say I lend out 1 million USD cheaply, thus stabilising BTC because people lend from it to keep the price up. Once my supply is off the platform, the price drops.
I could also just do what I suggested before (offer the million USD every day for 1 day less until the 01/04) and have the same results - or also I could buy BTC on the 01/04 (maybe even leveraged!) and crash the price even harder.

Once I have a load of money (= enough to manipulate the market) I can do evil stuff in any case as far as I see it. However I might rather consider lending this money (thus stabilizing prizes + using your platform) if I can calculate better when I get my profit.

https://bitfinex.com <-- leveraged trading of BTCUSD, LTCUSD and LTCBTC (long and short) - 10% discount on fees for the first 30 days with this refcode: x5K9YtL3Zb
Mail me at Bitmessage: BM-BbiHiVv5qh858ULsyRDtpRrG9WjXN3xf
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February 21, 2013, 12:41:30 AM
 #306

you totally ignore the risk on that post

for that topic is closed i wont derail the thread even more

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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February 21, 2013, 12:49:58 AM
 #307

And incidentally, it is actually impossible for anyone to use my 1-day 10% loan.  If you try to open a 1-day position you will get the VIR even though it is close to 60%.  There is literally no way for anyone to use a 1-day fixed rate loan, and yet you insist this is not a problem.  Roll Eyes  Previously you complained that people were "too lazy" to go to the lending screen, but if they do they might not be able to get the loan length they want because they (basically) will lose a day off the loan length the second they accept it.  
i am getting tired of this to be honest, i dont know if this is intentional or not, here is what i have done

1) i reserved the loan at 10% apy, first part of the image
2) open a 0.1 long position, middle of the image
3) i used a part of the loan and there is another available


I don't know why you feel it necessary to be rude to your customers.  I personally don't even care about this issue, because it doesn't affect me.  However, I noticed many people making the same complaint and every time you just tell them they don't understand how the system works with varying degrees of rudeness.  If you don't like answering customer complaints you should either change the way the system works (several viable solutions have been offered by those who complained) or get out of business.  I was trying to help you out and you treat me like an annoying idiot and act like you can't be bothered to improve things? Geez.

@ThaddeusB

1) if a loans if set for maximum 7 days and you add a buffer for 8 hours that's breach of contract since BFX would change the loan conditions for lender
2) if someone borrows funds for 7 days and BFX adds a buffer for 8 hours that's another change on loan conditions since the contract was for 7 days not 7 days and x hours
3) and who should pay for the 8h buffer time BFX because it adds the buffer or the borrower ?
4) i am a borrower and i dont need the buffer why i should pay the interest for that time ?


is quite clear that this issues are easy avoided when borrower takes the loan for 8 9 or 10 days 

You say that a buffer would violate a "contact" (of which there is none to begin with), but clearly there must be a buffer of some sort or you couldn't have used the funds even one second later as 23:59:59 remaining on a loan is not sufficient for a 24:00:00 loan.  By your logic, you are already violating the "contract"...  Maybe the existing buffer is only 1 minute, who knows.  Whatever it is, it certainly doesn't seem to be long enough based on the frequent complaints. 

You either don't understand the issue, you don't understand how your own system works, or you are purposely making up non-issues to justify your stubbornness.  With or without a buffer, the borrower pays interest for the amount of time they use funds, just like always.  No one "pays" for the extra time unless it is used.  If a person reserves a 7 day loan and opens a 7 day position 5 minutes later, they pay (at maximum) 7 days and 5 minutes of interest.  If they close it after precisely 27 hours, they pay 27:05 of interest.  This is exactly the same as if the person reserves a 8 day loan and opens a 7 day position 5 minutes later.

All I am saying is that you could avoid the frequent misunderstandings by making a "7 day max" offer really "7 days and 3 hours".  I guarantee no lender would ever and I mean ever complain because their "7 day" offer was held for 7 days and 3 hours, while receiving 7 days and 3 hours worth of interest. 

Yes, it is quite clear that if someone understands how your system works they can avoid the issue by selecting 8 days instead of 7.  That assumes the lenders are offering 8 days instead of 7, which rarely is the case.  It is also quite clear that few borrowers and few lenders expect the system to work the way you have it set up.  That is why borrowers complain and non 1/7/14/30/60 day lending offers are rare.  You can either fix the system to do what people expect it to, or you can keep explaining the every new user who encounters it and complains (other might just get frustrated and never tell you about it.)  From your demeanor, you obviously do not enjoy responding to the same question over and over again.  Thus I suggest you change the way things work.
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February 21, 2013, 01:08:14 AM
 #308

@ThaddeusB i am not rude i just go to the point, you should be aware that there are different cultures around the globe and concept of rude is relative and what is rude for you it may or may not be rude for me

Since my help is not appreciated in here I am out have a nice day and good luck.

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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February 21, 2013, 01:26:39 AM
 #309

@ThaddeusB i am not rude i just go to the point, you should be aware that there are different cultures around the globe and concept of rude is relative and what is rude for you it may or may not be rude for me

Since my help is not appreciated in here I am out have a nice day and good luck.

Someone (not me) is soaked on interest and asks you to fix the root cause (admitting it was their own fault in part) and you respond that they are "too lazy" to reserve funds like they "should have."

The same question comes up over and over again and respond that you are "tired" of it.  Then proceed me accuse me purposely distorting the issue when I am only trying to help.

You complain that people only post when things go wrong.

You ignore posts/large parts of posts you don't like.

And all of this is just from the last week.

Telling people that everything is their fault and insisting you can't change anything because the system works perfectly and it is just the users who don't understand it is not being helpful by anyone's definition and is being rude by most people's.  I have previously defended you against criticism saying you "have no clue what you are doing and act like a child."  Unfortunately, I now understand where that criticism was coming from.  I still LOVE the system and I still think you and Raphael are very honest people, but I am starting to lose confidence in your abilities to actually run the business.
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February 21, 2013, 09:13:52 AM
 #310

Hello everyone,

Please calm down Smiley

Customers is king, or so they say in France. So I agree with you that it's annoying to borrow for say 1 day and not being able to use these borrowing funds.

I'm going to change the way loans expire: they will now expire at the end of their last day (midnight UTC).

Allow us a few days to implement this. But don't fight over this, this is going to change.

If you have any more requests don't hesitate to ask
Best regards
Raphael and the Bitfinex team
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February 21, 2013, 01:12:32 PM
 #311

Hello everyone,

Please calm down Smiley

Customers is king, or so they say in France. So I agree with you that it's annoying to borrow for say 1 day and not being able to use these borrowing funds.

I'm going to change the way loans expire: they will now expire at the end of their last day (midnight UTC).

Allow us a few days to implement this. But don't fight over this, this is going to change.

If you have any more requests don't hesitate to ask
Best regards
Raphael and the Bitfinex team

Thank you. 
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February 23, 2013, 05:56:07 AM
 #312

This was a hell of a ride....
But Bitfinex did well and the front-end remained responsive. Also the API connection worked well. It does not poll so often, but there were some incients, where the ask/bid display was still accurate, while even mtgox live was sluggish. When the trend turned back up again, probably the Gox API was completely overloaded -- probably everyone wanted to get orders in.

Regarding the "lending frontier" -- well they tried it again...


hopefully this time no one fell into this trap  Wink

It is really fun to watch: as soon as the VIR offers were sucked away, the fixed rate lending market starts getting vivid
Also the damping factor seems to work. The VIR rates climbed slowly. Now they are up to about 300%



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February 23, 2013, 07:28:21 AM
 #313

Someone is borrowing from me at 1600%.  Though it is only $20.

Don't day trade.
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February 23, 2013, 05:31:57 PM
 #314


After the observations during the last market movements, I am more and more concerned if those VIR (variable rate loans) are serving us well. At first I thought that is a very clever idea, they will stabilise the market. But the more I am watching this loan market, I get the impression, the VIR rates aren't stabilising the market, the way they are implemented right now they seem to suffocate it.

Yesterday was again a brilliant example to watch. The moment the VIR where sucked, the loan market came back to life again.


There are two fundamental forces necessary to get a market to work:
  • the power to offer
  • the power not to accept an offer


Please note: I do not want to criticise anyone here.
My intention is to make us think what we really want and what really serves our needs.


So far we had the modified VIR calculation which has proven effective yesterday. It prevents VIR from running amok, which is good.

Then there was the idea by "Myself" (not me  Wink ), to differentiate the VIR calculation, making the short term VIRs cheaper and the long term ones more expensive (Myself did I understand your idea correct?).

I'd like to add the idea or question what would happen if Raphael changed the behaviour, so that VIRs are only preferred when there is no cheaper fixed rate loan? Do you think this might create kind of a limited market, under the "cap" formed by the VIR offers? When everyone is offering VIR, there could be an incentive for a lender to offer below VIR, which should give us an equilibrium.

Then there is the proposed feature to allow users to choose there preference (VIR or not). What do you think, will this do the trick?

Of course, there would be the other radical possibility just to ditch the VIR feature and rely on the formation of a free loan market entirely.


Opinions? Other ideas?
How do you feel about those VIR loans?
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February 23, 2013, 11:22:34 PM
 #315

Hello,

Currently, I am providing about 8k of the active 64k USD loans on Bitfinex. Thus my interest in this matter.

I was surprised to read that VIRs are always preferred, even if there is a cheaper fixed rate available.
Please go forward with the idea that offers below VIR are accepted before the VIR.

For the lenders/borrowers I would like buttons 'cancel all borrow offers' and 'cancel all lend offers'

Also, I would appreciate a possibility to spread the funds to lend over a range of interest rates. Like: place 10 offers startAt=50% step=25% lendOfferSize=500USD
I realize that the current way the offer book is shown has problems with spreading the funds over a range of interest rates. If a lot of people do that, the page would become insanely long.
It might be better to show the market of offers in a compressed form like a distribution graph.

Thanks!
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February 28, 2013, 01:51:30 AM
 #316

@lenders if you want join the Power Lenders group

Los desesperados publican que lo inventó el rey que rabió, porque todo son en el rabias y mas rabias, disgustos y mas disgustos, pezares y mas pezares; si el que compra algunas partidas vé que baxan, rabia de haver comprado; si suben, rabia de que no compró mas; si compra, suben, vende, gana y buelan aun á mas alto precio del que ha vendido; rabia de que vendió por menor precio: si no compra ni vende y ván subiendo, rabia de que haviendo tenido impulsos de comprar, no llegó á lograr los impulsos; si van baxando, rabia de que, haviendo tenido amagos de vender, no se resolvió á gozar los amagos; si le dan algun consejo y acierta, rabia de que no se lo dieron antes; si yerra, rabia de que se lo dieron; con que todo son inquietudes, todo arrepentimientos, tododelirios, luchando siempre lo insufrible con lo feliz, lo indomito con lo tranquilo y lo rabioso con lo deleytable.
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February 28, 2013, 08:08:54 AM
 #317

I'm curious, why do traders seem to suck up the USD but not the BTC? Is borrowing BTC not worthwhile for the traders?

I ask because I can loan thousands of USD but I can't even get 20BTC loaned out. Interesting.
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February 28, 2013, 09:11:26 AM
 #318

Hello people
Please go forward with the idea that offers below VIR are accepted before the VIR.

That's in the work, soon to be release, really Smiley
By default you will include VIR, but if you uncheck a box you will by pass VIR

Also, I would appreciate a possibility to spread the funds to lend over a range of interest rates. Like: place 10 offers startAt=50% step=25% lendOfferSize=500USD
I realize that the current way the offer book is shown has problems with spreading the funds over a range of interest rates. If a lot of people do that, the page would become insanely long.
It might be better to show the market of offers in a compressed form like a distribution graph.

Thanks!

That could be better for reading purpose I agree. I'll see how to clean up the lending book a bit. But that would require to remove the buttons next to each offers (or change their behavior a bit).

Thanks everyone

By the way: all time high broken guys. Milestone for Bitcoin Smiley

Raphael
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February 28, 2013, 09:12:38 AM
 #319

I'm curious, why do traders seem to suck up the USD but not the BTC? Is borrowing BTC not worthwhile for the traders?

I ask because I can loan thousands of USD but I can't even get 20BTC loaned out. Interesting.

Because USD are used to go long and BTC to go short.

I let you imagine with the current market what traders currently prefer to do Smiley
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February 28, 2013, 12:50:00 PM
 #320

Quote
Bitcoin
Bitcoin watchonly daemon temporary down please come back later

This is what greets me already for more than a week - any eta. on when I am able again to throw money at you? No, I don't have or want an MtGox account to get codes from there...

https://bitfinex.com <-- leveraged trading of BTCUSD, LTCUSD and LTCBTC (long and short) - 10% discount on fees for the first 30 days with this refcode: x5K9YtL3Zb
Mail me at Bitmessage: BM-BbiHiVv5qh858ULsyRDtpRrG9WjXN3xf
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