[ESHOP launched] Trezor: Bitcoin hardware wallet

[marcus_of_augustus]

Yep, pigtail is best idea for this device, imo.

Any update on the ETA? ... I can't wait.

[stick]

Some time ago we bought a big box (50 pcs) of Margot rum-coconut chocolate bar, but the box is almost empty now. :-( Please support us at 1BitkeyP2nDd5oa647AjvBbbwST54W5Zmx so we can buy another one and fuel our brains with this sweet vice, thanks!



-- slush&stick: turning Margot into hardware and code since 2012. :-)

[irritant]

isnt Margot a competitor of Tresor   ((c) Kelloggs)?

[stick]

isnt Margot a competitor of Tresor   ((c) Kelloggs)?

No, no, completely different thing. :-)

[jim618]

I just sent you 100 Czech koruna for your 'Margot' fund !

[slush]

Thanks Jim, we'll think about you on next snack! :-D

[eldentyrell]

This is an early design of what may one day be wireless.

Although wireless would be great, and is certainly technically feasible, the technology industry has a horrible track record when it comes to usability of proximity wireless devices.  Just look at what a trainwreck bluetooth is.  Wireless eliminates wires, but replaces them with the "pairing problem" -- which of the N devices in the room do I intend to communicate with?  There's no fundamental technological hurdle to solving this problem, but so far the user interface aspect has been bungled on every attempt.

Remember, the UI here is split across two devices which are manufactured and programmed by different companies.

I think you're underestimating the standards-process impediment to this vision.  Maybe the tech industry will get its act together, but I wouldn't count on it.

[eldentyrell]

That the people will plug it into their desktop, which actually sits under the desk or otherwise in a non-easily viewable place.

Most of the keyboards I use have a female A-connector right on the keyboard (i.e. keyboard has built-in hub).  Very easily viewable.

If that's not enough, they can plug in the device to receive the transaction, remove it, read the text on the device, press the button, and plug it back in.  Although that sounds like a lot of steps it's still 100x faster and easier than rummaging around for a cable in somebody else's apartment/office/webcafe (remember, if I'm at home I don't need Trezor).

Outside of North America pretty much every household already has the required cable. It is a cell-phone industry standard charging and interface cable.

This harping on EU-vs-NA is counterproductive.  The EPS specification only standardizes one end of the cable.  There is no requirement that the other end have a USB connector on it!  Look here:

  

I'm sure most households on any continent in the developed world have plenty of random USB cables floating around in them.  Your customers just don't want to go digging around for them.  Please listen to your customers.

[eldentyrell]

Wow, apparently now you can get pushbuttons with their own built-in OLED display.

  http://www.digikey.com/product-highlights/us/en/nkk-switches-smartswitches/2606

[2112]

Most of the keyboards I use have a female A-connector right on the keyboard (i.e. keyboard has built-in hub).  Very easily viewable.

At a wrong angle that either requires people to tilt their heads to read the USB device screen or worse, encourages people to put tension on the connecting interface to tilt the keyboard itself.

If that's not enough, they can plug in the device to receive the transaction, remove it, read the text on the device, press the button, and plug it back in.  Although that sounds like a lot of steps it's still 100x faster and easier than rummaging around for a cable in somebody else's apartment/office/webcafe (remember, if I'm at home I don't need Trezor).

Trezor is USB-only powered and once you disconnect USB it resets itself. You, personally, may not need Trezor at home. Their target market consists of people like cypherdoc, who aren't even aware that their home/office machines are infected by malware.

This harping on EU-vs-NA is counterproductive.  The EPS specification only standardizes one end of the cable.  There is no requirement that the other end have a USB connector on it!  Look here:

  

I'm sure most households on any continent in the developed world have plenty of random USB cables floating around in them.  Your customers just don't want to go digging around for them.  Please listen to your customers.

What you call "harping" I call "market information". Outside of the USA/Canada the nearly all USB interfacing/recharging solutions consit of a power plugin that has a female USB-A connector and an USB-A to Micro-USB male/male cable. Even for the USA market the cheap $19.95 prepaid cell-phones are sold with the solution I described, not the one you pictured. In addition to the above the Micro-USB connectors are designed for up to 10,000 cycles of insertion and removal, compared to 1,500 for the standard USB and 5,000 for the Mini-USB.

Listening to the customers whims has only so much value. Good reliability and human-factor engineering gives more value long term, even if short-term some segment of the prospective customers gets offended. It is just a good business. I'm sorry that you feel offended by my post. I actually consulted a little for a personal medical device project that selected the same connectivity solution as the Trezor after spending 5 figures USD for the market research and ergonomics testing. I'm happy for our Czech friends to arrive at the same solution at the cost of a box of candy bars. In the medical field there is a big concern about liability for creating procedures that are prone to errors and omissions. Again, I'm glad that the Czech team came up with the solution that forces people to sit down and concetrate on the task at hand when operating their device. They wont be liable for the mistakes of the scatterbrains in the strict legal sense, just in the PR sense.

Edit: Since cypherdoc decided to utilize Streisand-effect, here's the link to the relevant thread about malware on his machine. As of the time of this edit it still has the screenshot of the infected browser's window.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=141448.msg1516165#msg1516165

[caveden]

(remember, if I'm at home I don't need Trezor).

I view Trezor precisely as a way for non-technical people to protect their main chunk of Bitcoins, back at their homes, yes. Not as a way to move around your entire wallet and expose it to meatspace dangers frequently.
To walk around with Bitcoins, smartphones are good enough. You charge it with smaller amounts that you could afford to lose in the case of a malware infection, and you're good to go. No extra device to carry, since you'll be carrying your phone with you anyway.

[Ente]

(remember, if I'm at home I don't need Trezor).

I view Trezor precisely as a way for non-technical people to protect their main chunk of Bitcoins, back at their homes, yes. Not as a way to move around your entire wallet and expose it to meatspace dangers frequently.
To walk around with Bitcoins, smartphones are good enough. You charge it with smaller amounts that you could afford to lose in the case of a malware infection, and you're good to go. No extra device to carry, since you'll be carrying your phone with you anyway.

I agree.

Now:
- Long-term coins on a paperwallet at home --> secure but inconvenient
- Some coins encrypted on my computer --> easy prey for keyloggers etc
- Few coins on my mobile --> hassle to back up and synchronize, or simply consider them lost

Later (tm):
- Everything in one trezor in different wallets, or two trezor
- Few coins on my mobile, with imported/exported/synched keys on the trezor or elsewhere

I don't plan to have the trezor with me any time at all. I need bitcoins outside? Mobilephone with exported+backupped keys at home.

Ente

[caveden]

- Long-term coins on a paperwallet at home --> secure but inconvenient

And I'd say paper wallets are less secure than Trezor, since you cannot back them up on the cloud (well, you can, but then it's not really a paper wallet any longer).

[K1773R]

- Long-term coins on a paperwallet at home --> secure but inconvenient

And I'd say paper wallets are less secure than Trezor, since you cannot back them up on the cloud (well, you can, but then it's not really a paper wallet any longer).

so you want to backup a physical device into the cloud?

[caveden]

- Long-term coins on a paperwallet at home --> secure but inconvenient

And I'd say paper wallets are less secure than Trezor, since you cannot back them up on the cloud (well, you can, but then it's not really a paper wallet any longer).

so you want to backup a physical device into the cloud?

Its encrypted seed, derp.

I realize you can do the same with a paper wallet, as I said previously, but then I wouldn't call it "paper wallet" any more.

[eldentyrell]

(remember, if I'm at home I don't need Trezor).

I thought this was clear, but I guess not: I and many others already use an old laptop whose wifi card was removed and network port was destroyed as an offline wallet machine; Trezor's advantage over an airwalled PC is portability.  I'd be surprised if there were something it did that a laptop couldn't be programmed to do.

I also want a device that can -- with lots of additional programming effort on my part -- do GPG signing and authenticate to Kerberos.

expose it to meatspace dangers frequently.

Hrm, not sure what those are, if the seed is backed up and the device requires some sort of PIN code (i.e. real two-factor).

To walk around with Bitcoins, smartphones are good enough. You charge it with smaller amounts that you could afford to lose in the case of a malware infection, and you're good to go. No extra device to carry, since you'll be carrying your phone with you anyway.

I posted here starting from the assumption that a device suitable for bitcoin signing would also be suitable for GPG signing, but in light of this I guess that's not true.  You can't split off "part of" your GPG key and take it with you (in theory you can make key hierarchies, but the amount of management effort increases with the number of levels).

I view Trezor precisely as a way for non-technical people to protect their main chunk of Bitcoins,

Ah, thanks, I guess I was confused.  Now that I know the Trezor developers don't consider me part of their target market I'll look elsewhere.  If anybody has a lead on a platform suitable for a more expert-oriented security token, there is a bounty.

[chrisrico]

I view Trezor precisely as a way for non-technical people to protect their main chunk of Bitcoins,

Ah, thanks, I guess I was confused.  Now that I know the Trezor developers don't consider me part of their target market I'll look elsewhere.  If anybody has a lead on a platform suitable for a more expert-oriented security token, there is a bounty.

Caveden isn't a Trezor developer. I'm pretty sure that they are wanting to accommodate both types of users. I personally plan on using their shield for my Pi at home, and a final unit for keeping on my person more than I would feel safe keeping on my phone.

[stick]

http://youtu.be/p1qnwKbZBVA

Demonstration video showing Trezor - Raspberry Pi shield version - performing some Unit Tests. Ethernet connection is used for debug purposes only, main communication is done via USB cable compatible with the final product. Computer side does not need any drivers, because USB HID is used.

[slush]

Actually we've much more unit tests for the device, but they're doing just some boring computations without any feedback on the display :-).

[jim618]

Trezor : It's alive !!!