Bryan Micon's Butterfly Labs Scammer Investigation including Josh Zerlan

[Micon]

But can you please tell us what part of this is a real tangible issue and what part of this is you saying Josh would regret what he said to you? I mean, from the video you posted I can tell you don't like the guy and "thats how you roll" -- going after someone with a vengeance -- but it tends to cloud the real issues here. Can you please stop your personal vindictive campaign and come up with some actual evidence? The FCC rule violation is a great start, but this poker-tell stuff is pretty lame.

I agree 100%. The closest thing to proof of this being a scam I've seen is "he looked nervous." Poker tells don't cut it when it comes to issues like this.

For the record: I don't have any faith in BFL delivering either. But I wouldn't be shouting it into a virtual megaphone on the internet branding it with my name as a conclusive scam report if I didn't have factual and tangible proof to back it up.

I understand this point and it is certainly valid.

Check the above post.  IMO the evidence is mounting, mix the super-spending on pre-order ads and the personal interaction with both Dave and Josh leads me to believe these guys are scammers and this company is filthy.  If I had the iron-clad proof you bet it would be in the OP of this thread.  I have also titled this thread as "Scammer Investigation" so I am doing nothing more than listing all evidence as I collect it and making my "IMO comments" about it.  

[smoothie]

Just based on that alone if I was the one running a scam investigation into BFL I'd stick to the facts and be a little plainer about what I had against the company personally.

Fact: BFL collected preorders 7 months ago and projected October 2012 delivery.

Fact: BFL is associated with Sonny V., who has a criminal record of mail fraud.

Fact: Delivery of BFL ASICs was pushed back to November, December, January, and now end of February.

Fact: BFL DID NOT bring a working prototype to demo at CES thus proving they don't have a working prototype to showcase their specs the list on their site.

Fact: Josh gave no guarantees that the timeline he posted a few days ago will hold up. (even given all of the 4 months leeway so far)

Fact: Those who have preorders with BFL are biased.

Fact: Josh/Inaba is the worst PR for BFL they could have in place. Who cares if people troll his ass. He is a public figure that represents BFL which tarnishes the name Butterfly Labs.

Your first four facts are perfectly fine points. The last three are more subjective to me, and they don't necessarily prove anything.

How is #6 subjective? I think those who have money with BFL (still) despite all of the writing on the wall are biased. They wouldn't leave their money there if they didn't want to believe ASICs would ship. Hence the word BIASED.

#5 is true. He didn't give any guarantees. How is this subjective?

#7 Josh is horrible at PR. Just look at how he cusses at anyone who disagrees with him? Even attacks people's kids in the process. Once he talked about Micon's daughter that showed how big of a scumbag he is. That is a FACT!

They are facts. I never said they had to prove anything. I'm not here to convince anyone of anything. I'm just stating what I see and what I know.

LOL

[21after2]

Just based on that alone if I was the one running a scam investigation into BFL I'd stick to the facts and be a little plainer about what I had against the company personally.

Fact: BFL collected preorders 7 months ago and projected October 2012 delivery.

Fact: BFL is associated with Sonny V., who has a criminal record of mail fraud.

Fact: Delivery of BFL ASICs was pushed back to November, December, January, and now end of February.

Fact: BFL DID NOT bring a working prototype to demo at CES thus proving they don't have a working prototype to showcase their specs the list on their site.

Fact: Josh gave no guarantees that the timeline he posted a few days ago will hold up. (even given all of the 4 months leeway so far)

Fact: Those who have preorders with BFL are biased.

Fact: Josh/Inaba is the worst PR for BFL they could have in place. Who cares if people troll his ass. He is a public figure that represents BFL which tarnishes the name Butterfly Labs.

Your first four facts are perfectly fine points. The last three are more subjective to me, and they don't necessarily prove anything.

How is #6 subjective? I think those who have money with BFL (still) despite all of the writing on the wall are biased. They wouldn't leave their money there if they didn't want to believe ASICs would ship. Hence the word BIASED.

#5 is true. He didn't give any guarantees. How is this subjective?

#7 Josh is horrible at PR. Just look at how he cusses at anyone who disagrees with him? Even attacks people's kids in the process. Once he talked about Micon's daughter that showed how big of a scumbag he is. That is a FACT!

LOL

#6 is subjective because you generalized the entirety of pre-orders as lovingly defending the company from a biased standpoint. Did you ask each and every one whether or not they think BFL will deliver? I've seen a few people on this forum who are upset with the company and the pre-orders they haven't received yet. Just because you don't agree with one side of an argument doesn't mean you can't understand it.

Your #5 just means you don't think he'll stick to the schedule he posted. It's not a "fact" you can use to prove he's lying. I don't think they'll ship on that schedule either, but I won't say that's a fact as much as what I think will happen (or, essentially, not happen).

#7 is your opinion that the guy is a scumbag. Even if he is, that doesn't mean the company is a scam. Plenty of companies have bad PR representing their names, but it doesn't prove anything substantial.

[smoothie]

Just based on that alone if I was the one running a scam investigation into BFL I'd stick to the facts and be a little plainer about what I had against the company personally.

Fact: BFL collected preorders 7 months ago and projected October 2012 delivery.

Fact: BFL is associated with Sonny V., who has a criminal record of mail fraud.

Fact: Delivery of BFL ASICs was pushed back to November, December, January, and now end of February.

Fact: BFL DID NOT bring a working prototype to demo at CES thus proving they don't have a working prototype to showcase their specs the list on their site.

Fact: Josh gave no guarantees that the timeline he posted a few days ago will hold up. (even given all of the 4 months leeway so far)

Fact: Those who have preorders with BFL are biased.

Fact: Josh/Inaba is the worst PR for BFL they could have in place. Who cares if people troll his ass. He is a public figure that represents BFL which tarnishes the name Butterfly Labs.

Your first four facts are perfectly fine points. The last three are more subjective to me, and they don't necessarily prove anything.

How is #6 subjective? I think those who have money with BFL (still) despite all of the writing on the wall are biased. They wouldn't leave their money there if they didn't want to believe ASICs would ship. Hence the word BIASED.

#5 is true. He didn't give any guarantees. How is this subjective?

#7 Josh is horrible at PR. Just look at how he cusses at anyone who disagrees with him? Even attacks people's kids in the process. Once he talked about Micon's daughter that showed how big of a scumbag he is. That is a FACT!

LOL

#6 is subjective because you generalized the entirety of pre-orders as lovingly defending the company from a biased standpoint. Did you ask each and every one whether or not they think BFL will deliver? I've seen a few people on this forum who are upset with the company and the pre-orders they haven't received yet. Just because you don't agree with one side of an argument doesn't mean you can't understand it.

Your #5 just means you don't think he'll stick to the schedule he posted. It's not a "fact" you can use to prove he's lying. I don't think they'll ship on that schedule either, but I won't say that's a fact as much as what I think will happen (or, essentially, not happen).

#7 is your opinion that the guy is a scumbag. Even if he is, that doesn't mean the company is a scam. Plenty of companies have bad PR representing their names, but it doesn't prove anything substantial.

Hey BFL FAN BOY!

1. No I did not speak to all preorder customers. But the mentality is sound. Keeping money with BFL and not believing they will ship is stupid. Hence someone keeping their money with BFL is biased and believes they will ship.

2. My #5 is a fact. Nor does it have to prove anything. You keep bringing up that something needs to be PROVEN. IT IS A FACT! GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL.

3. Someone who talks shit about someone's 3 week old daughter is absolutely a scumbag/asshole/(whatever word suits you). This FACT never was meant to PROVE BFL is a scam.

Who said my list of facts HAD TO prove anything?

Can you answer that question? My guess is no you won't given you've tried to make it seem like I'm trying to prove something that I'm not.

FACTS are FACTS. They don't need to prove anything genius!

Is BFL paying you by the minute or hour to digress posts about the FACTS?  

[21after2]

If your "facts" aren't meant to prove anything, then what's the point of throwing them around? I've never seen someone put so much effort into not making a point.

[smoothie]

If your "facts" aren't meant to prove anything, then what's the point of throwing them around? I've never seen someone put so much effort into not making a point.

Dipshit,

If I list the facts, people can make their own decision to believe what is true and what isn't. I'm not here to tell people how to think nor what to buy or not.

that was the point.

Listing facts is only irritating if you're the one who will get heat from it if people think about the FACTS and come wanting answers.

Having a point and proving something are two different things. If I make a point, it doesn't necessarily prove that it is true to you. Nor do I have to prove anything is true.

My point is to list the FACTS as they lay. Whether you, your mama, or your grandma believe the facts is not of my concern.

 

[21after2]

If your "facts" aren't meant to prove anything, then what's the point of throwing them around? I've never seen someone put so much effort into not making a point.

Dipshit,

If I list the facts. People can make their own decision to believe what is true and what isn't. I'm not here to tell people how to think nor what to buy or not.

that was the point.

Listing facts is only irritating if you're the one who will get heat from it if people think about the FACTS and come wanting answers.

Having a point and proving something are two different things. If I make a point, it doesn't necessarily prove that it is true.

My point is to list the FACTS as they lay. Whether you, your mama, or your grandma believe the facts is not of my concern.

 

Then why did you post them as a reply to someone looking for facts to help back up scammer claims? I'd hate to fathom that you were actually trying to sway someone else's opinion after that lovely reply of yours.

[smoothie]

If your "facts" aren't meant to prove anything, then what's the point of throwing them around? I've never seen someone put so much effort into not making a point.

Dipshit,

If I list the facts. People can make their own decision to believe what is true and what isn't. I'm not here to tell people how to think nor what to buy or not.

that was the point.

Listing facts is only irritating if you're the one who will get heat from it if people think about the FACTS and come wanting answers.

Having a point and proving something are two different things. If I make a point, it doesn't necessarily prove that it is true.

My point is to list the FACTS as they lay. Whether you, your mama, or your grandma believe the facts is not of my concern.

 

Then why did you post them as a reply to someone looking for facts to help back up scammer claims? I'd hate to fathom that you were actually trying to sway someone else's opinion after that lovely reply of yours.

Someone wanted to stick to the facts. What's wrong with that. So I listed some facts.

Your point? How about you PROVE that I was trying to PROVE something that BFL was or is or other?

This should be interesting. Prove it.

 

[smoothie]

@21after2,

Let's get more facts.

1. How much in preorders do you have with BFL to date?

2. When were those orders made?

3. When do you think BFL will ship?

4. Why do you think BFL kept delaying?

[21after2]

If your "facts" aren't meant to prove anything, then what's the point of throwing them around? I've never seen someone put so much effort into not making a point.

Dipshit,

If I list the facts. People can make their own decision to believe what is true and what isn't. I'm not here to tell people how to think nor what to buy or not.

that was the point.

Listing facts is only irritating if you're the one who will get heat from it if people think about the FACTS and come wanting answers.

Having a point and proving something are two different things. If I make a point, it doesn't necessarily prove that it is true.

My point is to list the FACTS as they lay. Whether you, your mama, or your grandma believe the facts is not of my concern.

 

Then why did you post them as a reply to someone looking for facts to help back up scammer claims? I'd hate to fathom that you were actually trying to sway someone else's opinion after that lovely reply of yours.

Someone wanted to stick to the facts. What's wrong with that. So I listed some facts.

Your point? How about you PROVE that I was trying to PROVE something that BFL was or is or other?

This should be interesting. Prove it.

 

Facts to sway his opinion, as you seem to do quite a bit on the forums Why, that means... that means you were lying to me earlier!  

@21after2,

Let's get more facts.

1. How much in preorders do you have with BFL to date?

2. When were those orders made?

3. When do you think BFL will ship?

4. Why do you think BFL kept delaying?

1. None. I don't mine Bitcoins. I don't think my on-the-go laptop would hold up well
2. See 1.
3. I don't think they'll ship. I believe I said that earlier.
4. They don't have anything to ship. That belief of mine can be gathered from what I said earlier.

[hardcore-fs]

Micon. Iv'e watched the vid.. and kept an eye on  the comments made by BFL staff on the forums.
I have to say that i have never met you... but just watching the video you pissed me off more than josh.

Seriously if you are going to do this sort of  exposure for god sake work on your public mannerisms and STFU when interviewing.
Given the chance: the more you allow a person to say, the more they will catch THEMSELVES out. Unfortunately since you cannot STFU in the vid... you end up catching yourself out.
And dude if you are going to pull the pud about  'being an expert poker player' FFS do it in the bar with your mates not on the internet in a BFL slam-down.

Finally can I recommend that you follow the time approved method of camera control when asking questions(watch the pros), because the way you were swinging the fucking camera about filming yourself made me dizzy.....(I.E we don't need to see your face to hear you speaking...thats not how microphones work dude...)

[Micon]

Micon. Iv'e watched the vid.. and kept an eye on  the comments made by BFL staff on the forums.
I have to say that i have never met you... but just watching the video you pissed me off more than josh.

Seriously if you are going to do this sort of  exposure for god sake work on your public mannerisms and STFU when interviewing.
Given the chance: the more you allow a person to say, the more they will catch THEMSELVES out. Unfortunately since you cannot STFU in the vid... you end up catching yourself out.
And dude if you are going to pull the pud about  'being an expert poker player' FFS do it in the bar with your mates not on the internet in a BFL slam-down.

Finally can I recommend that you follow the time approved method of camera control when asking questions(watch the pros), because the way you were swinging the fucking camera about filming yourself made me dizzy.....(I.E we don't need to see your face to hear you speaking...thats not how microphones work dude...)

some valid criticism in this post, and I disagree with only 2 points

Valid IMO:

1)  I have a big problem not STFU'ing when I should.  I do this on my podcast each Wed. and get similar feedback.  I know this is a personal problem of mine, and even though I am concious of it when I watch the entire video I'm saying in my own head "Micon, shut up and let them talk!" 

2)  I have no journalistic schooling of any sort.  I am an Indiana University dropout and just fire when I think is right.

3)  the amateur hour portrait video is embarrassing.  I wasn't planning any of this.  I just saw BFL Dave day 1 (not even knowing they were there) got some scammer-talk when I asked a few tough questions, had a child a few weeks ago and my parents were flying in, so I took an extra hour on Day 2 to just rip it.  I was fully expecting BFL to say "here is our boxes, this is what they will do, the ASICs are on the way"  but wow was I surprised at the even more scammer-ish total deflection response on day 2.  Most everything I do is raw and unedited, rife with procedural error but spot on in content.

Invalid IMO:

1)  I angered you more than Josh:  If you dislike my personality or lack of journalistic style, or that I talk too much during the video, I understand that.  Josh is holding millions and millions when delimited in USD.  When a known skeptic asks to see what you brought to CES, and as a BFL company representative you bait the reporter with asking to repeat the question, and answer it with "I can't hear you over your fucking stupidity" I think you have to find more fault with the guy holding millions promising the btc community what the journalist thinks is vaporware for his rudeness and refusal to show what he knew I would record and report truthfully as a box of fans.   Asking the softballs is not my thing.  you are "killing the messenger" if you hate me more than Josh in this vid.

2)  Pro poker players that train themselves to find body language tells are very good at spotting liars away from the poker tables.  It is a science.  I have studied it, and IMO it is a very valid point. I have tweeted this video at Joe Navarro, former FBI agent that I learned much of my tell-reading skills from, we have met briefly at one of his conferences and have communicated on twitter before.  I hope he has the time to check the 30 seconds of video I tweet'd at him and give a true expert opinion on Josh Zerlan's true opinion on the ASIC shipping info he provided to that reporter.

[usagi]

Just based on that alone if I was the one running a scam investigation into BFL I'd stick to the facts and be a little plainer about what I had against the company personally.

Fact: BFL collected preorders 7 months ago and projected October 2012 delivery.

Fact: BFL is associated with Sonny V., who has a criminal record of mail fraud.

Fact: Delivery of BFL ASICs was pushed back to November, December, January, and now end of February.

Fact: BFL DID NOT bring a working prototype to demo at CES thus proving they don't have a working prototype to showcase their specs the list on their site.

Fact: Josh gave no guarantees that the timeline he posted a few days ago will hold up. (even given all of the 4 months leeway so far)

Fact: Those who have preorders with BFL are biased.

Fact: Josh/Inaba is the worst PR for BFL they could have in place. Who cares if people troll his ass. He is a public figure that represents BFL which tarnishes the name Butterfly Labs.

Thanks to both of you for the clear response, although those facts don't state conclusively that BFL is scamming it may warrant a second look. So I ask, what are we as a community now prepared to do in order to take that second look and determine conclusively whether or not BFL is a scam?

You state "Who cares if people troll his ass. He is a public figure that represents BFL which tarnishes the name Butterfly Labs." That's the point. If people are going to engage in a smear campaign because they don't like someone, that's one thing. But this is about if BFL is a scam. So I ask what should we do now?

Should we hire a private investigator? Should we merely ask BFL for some sort of technical document or photo? Is there some way to determine beyond a reasonable doubt that they are scamming? I know I personally would love to put money down on a PI if that's what it takes.

[usagi]

Hey BFL FAN BOY!

I'm just trying to understand wtf this is about -- is this an issue about BFL fan boys versus people who don't like BFL? Or if BFL is scamming?

It's been said a couple of times that this is not a "court of law" and that legalese or line-by-line responses are sperging. There is another side to that coin. It's not okay to waltz in here and say that someone is a scammer because you don't like them. That's why I asked for a list of facts earlier. In response I got a bunch of facts like "Sonny committed a crime 10 years ago" and "Josh is a big fat jerk". I'm sorry, I should have said, facts related to whether or not BFL is scamming.

Anyway, no one said your facts had to prove anything. Relax bro. It's okay to hate someone. You have a right to hate people and talk shit in a free society.

[Monster Tent]

If BFL is a legitimate company they should have a physical address prominently displayed unless they are simply a shell company which will be used to hold all the debts while the principals involved get on a flight to the bahamas with all the cash.


If everything is produced "inhouse" as they claim why couldnt they bring cases and/or components from the ASIC's to CES since they claim all they are waiting for is the chips ? They should have enough of the components to at least show a box without a chip in it, since they have said they are producing it all in their own factory.

[usagi]

If BFL is a legitimate company they should have a physical address prominently displayed unless they are simply a shell company which will be used to hold all the debts while the principals involved get on a flight to the bahamas with all the cash.

Don't they have an address in Kansas City Missouri on their webpage?

[lucif]

Only PO Box number

[Monster Tent]

If BFL is a legitimate company they should have a physical address prominently displayed unless they are simply a shell company which will be used to hold all the debts while the principals involved get on a flight to the bahamas with all the cash.

Don't they have an address in Kansas City Missouri on their webpage?

They have a post office box. Also by this stage they should have all their equipment setup at wherever their factory is and could have brought pics to CES  instead of empty boxes  

[smoothie]

If your "facts" aren't meant to prove anything, then what's the point of throwing them around? I've never seen someone put so much effort into not making a point.

Dipshit,

If I list the facts. People can make their own decision to believe what is true and what isn't. I'm not here to tell people how to think nor what to buy or not.

that was the point.

Listing facts is only irritating if you're the one who will get heat from it if people think about the FACTS and come wanting answers.

Having a point and proving something are two different things. If I make a point, it doesn't necessarily prove that it is true.

My point is to list the FACTS as they lay. Whether you, your mama, or your grandma believe the facts is not of my concern.

 

Then why did you post them as a reply to someone looking for facts to help back up scammer claims? I'd hate to fathom that you were actually trying to sway someone else's opinion after that lovely reply of yours.

Someone wanted to stick to the facts. What's wrong with that. So I listed some facts.

Your point? How about you PROVE that I was trying to PROVE something that BFL was or is or other?

This should be interesting. Prove it.

 

Facts to sway his opinion, as you seem to do quite a bit on the forums Why, that means... that means you were lying to me earlier!  

@21after2,

Let's get more facts.

1. How much in preorders do you have with BFL to date?

2. When were those orders made?

3. When do you think BFL will ship?

4. Why do you think BFL kept delaying?

1. None. I don't mine Bitcoins. I don't think my on-the-go laptop would hold up well
2. See 1.
3. I don't think they'll ship. I believe I said that earlier.
4. They don't have anything to ship. That belief of mine can be gathered from what I said earlier.

You still have not proven intention. Keep trying though. =)

[21after2]

If your "facts" aren't meant to prove anything, then what's the point of throwing them around? I've never seen someone put so much effort into not making a point.

Dipshit,

If I list the facts. People can make their own decision to believe what is true and what isn't. I'm not here to tell people how to think nor what to buy or not.

that was the point.

Listing facts is only irritating if you're the one who will get heat from it if people think about the FACTS and come wanting answers.

Having a point and proving something are two different things. If I make a point, it doesn't necessarily prove that it is true.

My point is to list the FACTS as they lay. Whether you, your mama, or your grandma believe the facts is not of my concern.

 

Then why did you post them as a reply to someone looking for facts to help back up scammer claims? I'd hate to fathom that you were actually trying to sway someone else's opinion after that lovely reply of yours.

Someone wanted to stick to the facts. What's wrong with that. So I listed some facts.

Your point? How about you PROVE that I was trying to PROVE something that BFL was or is or other?

This should be interesting. Prove it.

 

Facts to sway his opinion, as you seem to do quite a bit on the forums Why, that means... that means you were lying to me earlier!  

@21after2,

Let's get more facts.

1. How much in preorders do you have with BFL to date?

2. When were those orders made?

3. When do you think BFL will ship?

4. Why do you think BFL kept delaying?

1. None. I don't mine Bitcoins. I don't think my on-the-go laptop would hold up well
2. See 1.
3. I don't think they'll ship. I believe I said that earlier.
4. They don't have anything to ship. That belief of mine can be gathered from what I said earlier.

You still have not proven intention. Keep trying though. =)

I'm supposing to be proving something? I was just stating my observations. It's up to others to make their own decisions as to what is true and what isn't.