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Author Topic: Health and Religion  (Read 210911 times)
aesma
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October 30, 2017, 11:11:55 PM
 #1581

I'm an atheist, not because of a rejection of a deity or of religion, but because I don't believe in a higher power and never have, despite having received a religious upbringing. I never had faith, but I always had logic.

I choose to embrace a different faith and take the position that creation logically implies a creator. We live in a universe that demonstrates cause and effect and this alone strongly supports belief in God over a creation of random happenstance.

I don't pretend to know how the universe started, if there was even a start. This is a very difficult scientific problem, experimentation is not very useful, at least not with our current capabilities. I don't see any logical way to go from there to the existence of a god. In fact, the existence of a god doesn't even solve the problem, because the question simply becomes, how did that god start/appear/was created ?
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October 31, 2017, 03:29:37 AM
 #1582

I'm an atheist, not because of a rejection of a deity or of religion, but because I don't believe in a higher power and never have, despite having received a religious upbringing. I never had faith, but I always had logic.

I choose to embrace a different faith and take the position that creation logically implies a creator. We live in a universe that demonstrates cause and effect and this alone strongly supports belief in God over a creation of random happenstance.

I don't pretend to know how the universe started, if there was even a start. This is a very difficult scientific problem, experimentation is not very useful, at least not with our current capabilities. I don't see any logical way to go from there to the existence of a god. In fact, the existence of a god doesn't even solve the problem, because the question simply becomes, how did that god start/appear/was created ?

As CoinCube said, there is no logic in thinking that this universe could ever come about without a maker. Why couldn't it? Because of the complexity.

Nowhere in the universe where we have examples of complexity, that we understand the source of, where the source is ever less complex than the result. Even so, the whole universe had a source that was way more complex than it is. And since there is intelligence, emotion, identity, spirit, etc., in the universe, the source must have these things within itself, as well.

The logic is God.

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Covid is snake venom. Dr. Bryan Ardis https://thedrardisshow.com/ - Search on 'Bryan Ardis' at these links https://www.bitchute.com/, https://www.brighteon.com/, https://rumble.com/, https://banned.video/.
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October 31, 2017, 03:44:12 AM
Last edit: October 31, 2017, 04:22:30 AM by CoinCube
 #1583


I don't pretend to know how the universe started, if there was even a start. This is a very difficult scientific problem, experimentation is not very useful, at least not with our current capabilities. I don't see any logical way to go from there to the existence of a god. In fact, the existence of a god doesn't even solve the problem, because the question simply becomes, how did that god start/appear/was created ?

A fair and deep question that deserves a reply. Below is an essay by Perry Marshal that tackles this very question it describes one way to infer the existence of God. The essay is s bit long but this is a deep topic.

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October 31, 2017, 03:44:45 AM
Last edit: August 05, 2019, 05:14:42 AM by CoinCube
 #1584

The Limits of Science

The #1 Mathematical Discovery of the 20th Century
https://www.perrymarshall.com/articles/religion/godels-incompleteness-theorem/
Quote from: Perry Marshall
In 1931, the young mathematician Kurt Gödel made a landmark discovery, as powerful as anything Albert Einstein developed.

Gödel’s discovery not only applied to mathematics but literally all branches of science, logic and human knowledge. It has truly earth-shattering implications.

Oddly, few people know anything about it.

Allow me to tell you the story.

Mathematicians love proofs. They were hot and bothered for centuries, because they were unable to PROVE some of the things they knew were true.

So for example if you studied high school Geometry, you’ve done the exercises where you prove all kinds of things about triangles based on a list of theorems.

That high school geometry book is built on Euclid’s five postulates. Everyone knows the postulates are true, but in 2500 years nobody’s figured out a way to prove them.

Yes, it does seem perfectly reasonable that a line can be extended infinitely in both directions, but no one has been able to PROVE that. We can only demonstrate that they are a reasonable, and in fact necessary, set of 5 assumptions.

Towering mathematical geniuses were frustrated for 2000+ years because they couldn’t prove all their theorems. There were many things that were “obviously” true but nobody could figure out a way to prove them.

In the early 1900’s, however, a tremendous sense of optimism began to grow in mathematical circles. The most brilliant mathematicians in the world (like Bertrand Russell, David Hilbert and Ludwig Wittgenstein) were convinced that they were rapidly closing in on a final synthesis.

A unifying “Theory of Everything” that would finally nail down all the loose ends. Mathematics would be complete, bulletproof, airtight, triumphant.

In 1931 this young Austrian mathematician, Kurt Gödel, published a paper that once and for all PROVED that a single Theory Of Everything is actually impossible.

Gödel’s discovery was called “The Incompleteness Theorem.”

If you’ll give me just a few minutes, I’ll explain what it says, how Gödel discovered it, and what it means – in plain, simple English that anyone can understand.

Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem says:

“Anything you can draw a circle around cannot explain itself without referring to something outside the circle – something you have to assume but cannot prove.”

You can draw a circle around all of the concepts in your high school geometry book. But they’re all built on Euclid’s 5 postulates which are clearly true but cannot be proven. Those 5 postulates are outside the book, outside the circle.

You can draw a circle around a bicycle but the existence of that bicycle relies on a factory that is outside that circle. The bicycle cannot explain itself.

Gödel proved that there are ALWAYS more things that are true than you can prove.

Any system of logic or numbers that mathematicians ever came up with will always rest on at least a few unprovable assumptions.

Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem applies not just to math, but to everything that is subject to the laws of logic. Incompleteness is true in math; it’s equally true in science or language or philosophy.

And: If the universe is mathematical and logical, Incompleteness also applies to the universe.

Gödel created his proof by starting with “The Liar’s Paradox” — which is the statement

“I am lying.”

“I am lying” is self-contradictory, since if it’s true, I’m not a liar, and it’s false; and if it’s false, I am a liar, so it’s true.

So Gödel, in one of the most ingenious moves in the history of math, converted the Liar’s Paradox into a mathematical formula. He proved that any statement requires an external observer.

No statement alone can completely prove itself true.

His Incompleteness Theorem was a devastating blow to the “positivism” of the time. Gödel proved his theorem in black and white and nobody could argue with his logic.

Yet some of his fellow mathematicians went to their graves in denial, believing that somehow or another Gödel must surely be wrong.

He wasn’t wrong. It was really true. There are more things that are true than you can prove.

A “theory of everything” – whether in math, or physics, or philosophy – will never be found. Because it is impossible.

OK, so what does this really mean? Why is this super-important, and not just an interesting geek factoid?

Here’s what it means:

Faith and Reason are not enemies. In fact, the exact opposite is true! One is absolutely necessary for the other to exist. All reasoning ultimately traces back to faith in something that you cannot prove.

All closed systems depend on something outside the system.

You can always draw a bigger circle but there will still be something outside the circle.

Reasoning inward from a larger circle to a smaller circle is “deductive reasoning.”

Example of a deductive reasoning:
1. All men are mortal
2. Socrates is a man
3. Therefore Socrates is mortal

Reasoning outward from a smaller circle to a larger circle is “inductive reasoning.
Examples of inductive reasoning:

1. All the men I know are mortal
2. Therefore all men are mortal

1. When I let go of objects, they fall
2. Therefore there is a law of gravity that governs falling objects

Notice than when you move from the smaller circle to the larger circle, you have to make assumptions that you cannot 100% prove.

For example you cannot PROVE gravity will always be consistent at all times. You can only observe that it’s consistently true every time. You cannot prove that the universe is rational. You can only observe that mathematical formulas like E=MC^2 do seem to perfectly describe what the universe does.

Nearly all scientific laws are based on inductive reasoning. These laws rest on an assumption that the universe is logical and based on fixed discoverable laws.

You cannot PROVE this. (You can’t prove that the sun will come up tomorrow morning either.) You literally have to take it on faith. In fact most people don’t know that outside the science circle is a philosophy circle. Science is based on philosophical assumptions that you cannot scientifically prove. Actually, the scientific method cannot prove, it can only infer.

(Science originally came from the idea that God made an orderly universe which obeys fixed, discoverable laws.)

Now please consider what happens when we draw the biggest circle possibly can – around the whole universe. (If there are multiple universes, we’re drawing a circle around all of them too):

There has to be something outside that circle. Something which we have to assume but cannot prove
The universe as we know it is finite – finite matter, finite energy, finite space and 13.7 billion years time
The universe is mathematical. Any physical system subjected to measurement performs arithmetic. (You don’t need to know math to do addition – you can use an abacus instead and it will give you the right answer every time.)
The universe (all matter, energy, space and time) cannot explain itself

Whatever is outside the biggest circle is boundless. By definition it is not possible to draw a circle around it.
If we draw a circle around all matter, energy, space and time and apply Gödel’s theorem, then we know what is outside that circle is not matter, is not energy, is not space and is not time. It’s immaterial.

Whatever is outside the biggest circle is not a system – i.e. is not an assemblage of parts. Otherwise we could draw a circle around them. The thing outside the biggest circle is indivisible.

Whatever is outside the biggest circle is an uncaused cause,because you can always draw a circle around an effect.

We can apply the same inductive reasoning to the Origin of Information:
In the history of the universe we also see the introduction of information, some 3.5 billion years ago (Or was it longer? Was information somehow present at the beginning?). It came in the form of the Genetic code, which is symbolic and immaterial.
The information appears to have come from the outside, since information is not known to be an inherent property of matter, energy, space or time
All codes we know the origin of are designed by conscious beings.
Therefore whatever is outside the largest circle is a conscious being.
My book Evolution 2.0: Breaking the Deadlock Between Darwin and Design explores the Origin of Information question in depth. The Evolution 2.0 Prize offers a multi-million dollar award for Origin of Information.

When we add information to the equation, we conclude that not only is the thing outside the biggest circle infinite and immaterial, it is also conscious.

Isn’t it interesting how all these things sound suspiciously similar to how theologians have described God for thousands of years?

So it’s hardly surprising that 80-90% of the people in the world believe in some concept of God. Yes, it’s intuitive to most folks. But Gödel’s theorem indicates it’s also supremely logical. In fact it’s the only position one can take and stay in the realm of reason and logic.

The person who proudly proclaims, “You’re a man of faith, but I’m a man of science” doesn’t understand the roots of science or the nature of knowledge!

Interesting aside…

If you visit the world’s largest atheist website, Infidels, on the home page you will find the following statement:

“Naturalism is the hypothesis that the natural world is a closed system, which means that nothing that is not part of the natural world affects it.”

If you know Gödel’s theorem, you know that all logical systems must rely on something outside the system. So according to Gödel’s Incompleteness theorem, the Infidels cannot be correct. If the universe is logical, it has an outside cause.

Thus atheism violates the laws of reason and logic.

Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem definitively proves that science can never fill its own gaps. We have no choice but to look outside of science for answers.

The Incompleteness of the universe isn’t proof that God exists. But… it IS proof that in order to construct a rational, scientific model of the universe, belief in God is not just 100% logical… it’s necessary.

Euclid’s 5 postulates aren’t formally provable and God is not formally provable either. But… just as you cannot build a coherent system of geometry without Euclid’s 5 postulates, neither can you build a coherent description of the universe without a First Cause and a Source of order.

Thus faith and science are not enemies, but allies. It’s been true for hundreds of years, but in 1931 this skinny young Austrian mathematician named Kurt Gödel proved it.

No time in the history of mankind has faith in God been more reasonable, more logical, or more thoroughly supported by science and mathematics.

“Without mathematics we cannot penetrate deeply into philosophy.
Without philosophy we cannot penetrate deeply into mathematics.
Without both we cannot penetrate deeply into anything.”

-Leibniz

“Math is the language God wrote the universe in.”


See: An Argument for God for more.

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October 31, 2017, 04:04:08 AM
 #1585

The #1 Mathematical Discovery of the 20th Century
https://www.perrymarshall.com/articles/religion/godels-incompleteness-theorem/
Quote from: Perry Marshal
In 1931, the young mathematician Kurt Gödel made a landmark discovery, as powerful as anything Albert Einstein developed.

Gödel’s discovery not only applied to mathematics but literally all branches of science, logic and human knowledge. It has truly earth-shattering implications.

Oddly, few people know anything about it.

Allow me to tell you the story.

Mathematicians love proofs. They were hot and bothered for centuries, because they were unable to PROVE some of the things they knew were true.

So for example if you studied high school Geometry, you’ve done the exercises where you prove all kinds of things about triangles based on a list of theorems.

That high school geometry book is built on Euclid’s five postulates. Everyone knows the postulates are true, but in 2500 years nobody’s figured out a way to prove them.

Yes, it does seem perfectly reasonable that a line can be extended infinitely in both directions, but no one has been able to PROVE that. We can only demonstrate that they are a reasonable, and in fact necessary, set of 5 assumptions.

Towering mathematical geniuses were frustrated for 2000+ years because they couldn’t prove all their theorems. There were many things that were “obviously” true but nobody could figure out a way to prove them.

In the early 1900’s, however, a tremendous sense of optimism began to grow in mathematical circles. The most brilliant mathematicians in the world (like Bertrand Russell, David Hilbert and Ludwig Wittgenstein) were convinced that they were rapidly closing in on a final synthesis.

A unifying “Theory of Everything” that would finally nail down all the loose ends. Mathematics would be complete, bulletproof, airtight, triumphant.

In 1931 this young Austrian mathematician, Kurt Gödel, published a paper that once and for all PROVED that a single Theory Of Everything is actually impossible.

Gödel’s discovery was called “The Incompleteness Theorem.”

If you’ll give me just a few minutes, I’ll explain what it says, how Gödel discovered it, and what it means – in plain, simple English that anyone can understand.

Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem says:

“Anything you can draw a circle around cannot explain itself without referring to something outside the circle – something you have to assume but cannot prove.”

You can draw a circle around all of the concepts in your high school geometry book. But they’re all built on Euclid’s 5 postulates which are clearly true but cannot be proven. Those 5 postulates are outside the book, outside the circle.

You can draw a circle around a bicycle but the existence of that bicycle relies on a factory that is outside that circle. The bicycle cannot explain itself.

Gödel proved that there are ALWAYS more things that are true than you can prove.

Any system of logic or numbers that mathematicians ever came up with will always rest on at least a few unprovable assumptions.

Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem applies not just to math, but to everything that is subject to the laws of logic. Incompleteness is true in math; it’s equally true in science or language or philosophy.

And: If the universe is mathematical and logical, Incompleteness also applies to the universe.

Gödel created his proof by starting with “The Liar’s Paradox” — which is the statement

“I am lying.”

“I am lying” is self-contradictory, since if it’s true, I’m not a liar, and it’s false; and if it’s false, I am a liar, so it’s true.

So Gödel, in one of the most ingenious moves in the history of math, converted the Liar’s Paradox into a mathematical formula. He proved that any statement requires an external observer.

No statement alone can completely prove itself true.

His Incompleteness Theorem was a devastating blow to the “positivism” of the time. Gödel proved his theorem in black and white and nobody could argue with his logic.

Yet some of his fellow mathematicians went to their graves in denial, believing that somehow or another Gödel must surely be wrong.

He wasn’t wrong. It was really true. There are more things that are true than you can prove.

A “theory of everything” – whether in math, or physics, or philosophy – will never be found. Because it is impossible.

OK, so what does this really mean? Why is this super-important, and not just an interesting geek factoid?

Here’s what it means:

Faith and Reason are not enemies. In fact, the exact opposite is true! One is absolutely necessary for the other to exist. All reasoning ultimately traces back to faith in something that you cannot prove.

All closed systems depend on something outside the system.

You can always draw a bigger circle but there will still be something outside the circle.

Reasoning inward from a larger circle to a smaller circle is “deductive reasoning.”

Example of a deductive reasoning:
1. All men are mortal
2. Socrates is a man
3. Therefore Socrates is mortal

Reasoning outward from a smaller circle to a larger circle is “inductive reasoning.
Examples of inductive reasoning:

1. All the men I know are mortal
2. Therefore all men are mortal

1. When I let go of objects, they fall
2. Therefore there is a law of gravity that governs falling objects

Notice than when you move from the smaller circle to the larger circle, you have to make assumptions that you cannot 100% prove.

For example you cannot PROVE gravity will always be consistent at all times. You can only observe that it’s consistently true every time. You cannot prove that the universe is rational. You can only observe that mathematical formulas like E=MC^2 do seem to perfectly describe what the universe does.

Nearly all scientific laws are based on inductive reasoning. These laws rest on an assumption that the universe is logical and based on fixed discoverable laws.

You cannot PROVE this. (You can’t prove that the sun will come up tomorrow morning either.) You literally have to take it on faith. In fact most people don’t know that outside the science circle is a philosophy circle. Science is based on philosophical assumptions that you cannot scientifically prove. Actually, the scientific method cannot prove, it can only infer.

(Science originally came from the idea that God made an orderly universe which obeys fixed, discoverable laws.)

Now please consider what happens when we draw the biggest circle possibly can – around the whole universe. (If there are multiple universes, we’re drawing a circle around all of them too):

There has to be something outside that circle. Something which we have to assume but cannot prove
The universe as we know it is finite – finite matter, finite energy, finite space and 13.7 billion years time
The universe is mathematical. Any physical system subjected to measurement performs arithmetic. (You don’t need to know math to do addition – you can use an abacus instead and it will give you the right answer every time.)
The universe (all matter, energy, space and time) cannot explain itself

Whatever is outside the biggest circle is boundless. By definition it is not possible to draw a circle around it.
If we draw a circle around all matter, energy, space and time and apply Gödel’s theorem, then we know what is outside that circle is not matter, is not energy, is not space and is not time. It’s immaterial.

Whatever is outside the biggest circle is not a system – i.e. is not an assemblage of parts. Otherwise we could draw a circle around them. The thing outside the biggest circle is indivisible.

Whatever is outside the biggest circle is an uncaused cause,because you can always draw a circle around an effect.

We can apply the same inductive reasoning to the Origin of Information:
In the history of the universe we also see the introduction of information, some 3.5 billion years ago (Or was it longer? Was information somehow present at the beginning?). It came in the form of the Genetic code, which is symbolic and immaterial.
The information appears to have come from the outside, since information is not known to be an inherent property of matter, energy, space or time
All codes we know the origin of are designed by conscious beings.
Therefore whatever is outside the largest circle is a conscious being.
My book Evolution 2.0: Breaking the Deadlock Between Darwin and Design explores the Origin of Information question in depth. The Evolution 2.0 Prize offers a multi-million dollar award for Origin of Information.

When we add information to the equation, we conclude that not only is the thing outside the biggest circle infinite and immaterial, it is also conscious.

Isn’t it interesting how all these things sound suspiciously similar to how theologians have described God for thousands of years?

So it’s hardly surprising that 80-90% of the people in the world believe in some concept of God. Yes, it’s intuitive to most folks. But Gödel’s theorem indicates it’s also supremely logical. In fact it’s the only position one can take and stay in the realm of reason and logic.

The person who proudly proclaims, “You’re a man of faith, but I’m a man of science” doesn’t understand the roots of science or the nature of knowledge!

Interesting aside…

If you visit the world’s largest atheist website, Infidels, on the home page you will find the following statement:

“Naturalism is the hypothesis that the natural world is a closed system, which means that nothing that is not part of the natural world affects it.”

If you know Gödel’s theorem, you know that all logical systems must rely on something outside the system. So according to Gödel’s Incompleteness theorem, the Infidels cannot be correct. If the universe is logical, it has an outside cause.

Thus atheism violates the laws of reason and logic.

Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem definitively proves that science can never fill its own gaps. We have no choice but to look outside of science for answers.

The Incompleteness of the universe isn’t proof that God exists. But… it IS proof that in order to construct a rational, scientific model of the universe, belief in God is not just 100% logical… it’s necessary.

Euclid’s 5 postulates aren’t formally provable and God is not formally provable either. But… just as you cannot build a coherent system of geometry without Euclid’s 5 postulates, neither can you build a coherent description of the universe without a First Cause and a Source of order.

Thus faith and science are not enemies, but allies. It’s been true for hundreds of years, but in 1931 this skinny young Austrian mathematician named Kurt Gödel proved it.

No time in the history of mankind has faith in God been more reasonable, more logical, or more thoroughly supported by science and mathematics.

“Without mathematics we cannot penetrate deeply into philosophy.
Without philosophy we cannot penetrate deeply into mathematics.
Without both we cannot penetrate deeply into anything.”

-Leibniz

“Math is the language God wrote the universe in.”



I'm embarrassed, but glad at the same time, for the same reason. What reason is that? You are always finding other people who outdo the things that I say.

 Cheesy

Covid is snake venom. Dr. Bryan Ardis https://thedrardisshow.com/ - Search on 'Bryan Ardis' at these links https://www.bitchute.com/, https://www.brighteon.com/, https://rumble.com/, https://banned.video/.
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October 31, 2017, 04:21:29 AM
Last edit: October 31, 2017, 06:27:26 PM by CoinCube
 #1586


I'm embarrassed, but glad at the same time, for the same reason. What reason is that? You are always finding other people who outdo the things that I say.

 Cheesy

 Cheesy  

Perhaps but there is also something to be said for insightful brevity as well.

I suspect that Perry Marshall spent quite a long time writing that essay above and the core message it conveys is essentially the same as that of your post immediately above.

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October 31, 2017, 04:31:08 AM
 #1587


I'm embarrassed, but glad at the same time, for the same reason. What reason is that? You are always finding other people who outdo the things that I say.

 Cheesy

 Cheesy 

Perhaps but there is also something to be said for insightful brevity as well.

I suspect that Perry Marshal spent quite a long time writing that essay above and the core message it conveys is essentially the same as that of your post immediately above.

Thank you.    Cool

Covid is snake venom. Dr. Bryan Ardis https://thedrardisshow.com/ - Search on 'Bryan Ardis' at these links https://www.bitchute.com/, https://www.brighteon.com/, https://rumble.com/, https://banned.video/.
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October 31, 2017, 09:22:08 AM
 #1588

I haven't the time to read all that right now, but from a quick look, it tries to justify the existence of a god. It doesn't explain how that god would have appeared.

You're saying that the big bang theory doesn't work because surely some conscience must have caused it. I'm simply stating that you've replaced one problem with another, not solved anything. Why would the big bang need a creator, but a god wouldn't need a creator ?

From a scientific, evidence and logic based point of view, I find the big bang theory far easier to "believe" in than a god. First because I know it's a theory in the common sense of the word, a better theory might come and I have no problem with that. Second because matter and energy appearing out of nothing seems more plausible than an omnipotent, omniscient consciousness appearing out of nothing.
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October 31, 2017, 01:32:43 PM
 #1589

I haven't the time to read all that right now, but from a quick look, it tries to justify the existence of a god. It doesn't explain how that god would have appeared.
Actually, it doesn't try. It is as close to mathematical proof for God as any math is for anything.

God didn't appear until He made the eye to see Him. Before that, He simply existed. What I mean is, we are so limited in our knowledge that there is no way to determine much of anything about God except to examine the universe and draw conclusions from the examination.



You're saying that the big bang theory doesn't work because surely some conscience must have caused it. I'm simply stating that you've replaced one problem with another, not solved anything. Why would the big bang need a creator, but a god wouldn't need a creator ?
Does big bang theory mathematically even suggest anything about intelligence, emotion, spirit, mind and a host of other things? BB is very weak.

The point isn't the why. The point is what exists. Perhaps some time when we determine if BB can really even exist, and if BB can even apply to the universe at all, then we can figure out the why?

Does God exist? It would take a lot of intelligence to put the universe together. BB doesn't have that in its theory. God has it.



From a scientific, evidence and logic based point of view, I find the big bang theory far easier to "believe" in than a god. First because I know it's a theory in the common sense of the word, a better theory might come and I have no problem with that. Second because matter and energy appearing out of nothing seems more plausible than an omnipotent, omniscient consciousness appearing out of nothing.

The matter, energy, intelligence, thinking ability, emotion, etc., came about because of God. Before they came about, there was no way anything could appear to them. Then, after they came about, they finally saw God; God appeared to them.

The math that Kurt Gödel discovered simply showed that there is and always will be uncertainty from our stand point... even with big bang. The only place uncertainty might NOT exist is outside of this universe, and the math of this universe.

You really need to read the short clip, above. The only reason science doesn't advertise Kurt Gödel's findings is because they don't want to.

Cool

Covid is snake venom. Dr. Bryan Ardis https://thedrardisshow.com/ - Search on 'Bryan Ardis' at these links https://www.bitchute.com/, https://www.brighteon.com/, https://rumble.com/, https://banned.video/.
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October 31, 2017, 10:37:34 PM
 #1590

We are here speaking about different stages of mind architecture - Religion is the OS 1.0 of our human mind, now a lot of people have upgraded to an OS 2.0, which is more clever but as it happens with later releases, it is still full of bugs. And a lot of code of 1.0 has been recycled anyway and its routines pop up again and again.
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October 31, 2017, 11:56:46 PM
 #1591

I strongly agree that when we meditate or pray and fix our minds into something, it also helps us in a physiological way. When we meditate, it relaxes our body and our minds helping us to boost our focus. Thus, we are able to think clearer and better since we also are able to release some of our stress.

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November 06, 2017, 02:40:42 PM
 #1592

OK so I've read it. Let's say I'm unconvinced. For example this : "Now please consider what happens when we draw the biggest circle we possibly can – around the whole universe."

This is stated like this, without any explanation. I disagree that we can draw a circle around the universe. The universe is infinite.

The rest of the proof doesn't matter if that basic axiom is not agreed on.
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November 06, 2017, 06:34:41 PM
 #1593

OK so I've read it. Let's say I'm unconvinced. For example this : "Now please consider what happens when we draw the biggest circle we possibly can – around the whole universe."

This is stated like this, without any explanation. I disagree that we can draw a circle around the universe. The universe is infinite.

The rest of the proof doesn't matter if that basic axiom is not agreed on.

The problem is that you cannot use Kurt Gödel theorem for theology, that's the consensus. The ''proof'' used here is nothing but the same old proof, just using Kurt Godel as an authority but it's the same thing. The same old assumptions without any bases like ''Whatever is outside the biggest circle is an uncaused cause'' or ''then we know what is outside that circle is not matter, is not energy, is not space and is not time. It’s immaterial.''
NO WE DON'T. That's the whole fucking point, we don't know what's outside the circle and even if you know it's not matter, energy or space or time you still don't know that it's ''immaterial'' You are just assuming that, what is ''immaterial'' anyways?

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November 07, 2017, 12:52:38 AM
 #1594

If you are religous or not, well that is a question of believe...
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November 07, 2017, 02:14:33 AM
 #1595

OK so I've read it. Let's say I'm unconvinced. For example this : "Now please consider what happens when we draw the biggest circle we possibly can – around the whole universe."

This is stated like this, without any explanation. I disagree that we can draw a circle around the universe. The universe is infinite.

The rest of the proof doesn't matter if that basic axiom is not agreed on.

And you know the universe is infinite how?

But even if it were, what is to keep God from being beyond even infinity is some way we can't grasp?

Cool

Covid is snake venom. Dr. Bryan Ardis https://thedrardisshow.com/ - Search on 'Bryan Ardis' at these links https://www.bitchute.com/, https://www.brighteon.com/, https://rumble.com/, https://banned.video/.
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November 07, 2017, 04:41:42 AM
 #1596


...
The universe is infinite.

The rest of the proof doesn't matter if that basic axiom is not agreed on.

You are making a claim here that cannot be backed up with observable data.

Here are some comments on this issue from Astrophysicist Ethan Siegel who sums up the current scientific knowledge and scientific theories on this issue. The full article is at the link below.

Is the Universe Finite or Infinite
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2017/10/14/ask-ethan-is-the-universe-finite-or-infinite/amp/
Quote from: Ethan Siegel
From our best observations, we know that the Universe is an awful lot bigger than the part we can observe. Beyond what we can see, we strongly suspect that there’s plenty more Universe out there just like ours, with the same laws of physics, the same types of physical, cosmic structures, and the same chances at complex life. There should also be a finite size and scale to the “bubble” in which inflation ended, and an exponentially huge number of such bubbles contained within the larger, inflating spacetime. But as inconceivably large as that entire Universe — or Multiverse, if you prefer — may be, it might not be infinite. In fact, unless inflation went on for a truly infinite amount of time, or the Universe was born infinitely large, the Universe ought to be finite in extent.

The biggest problem of all, though? It’s that we don’t have enough information to definitively answer the question. We only know how to access the information available inside our observable Universe: those 46 billion light years in all directions. The answer to the biggest of all questions, of whether the Universe is finite or infinite, might be encoded in the Universe itself, but we can’t access enough of it to know. Until we either figure it out, or come up with a clever scheme to expand what we know physics is capable of, all we’ll have are the possibilities.



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November 07, 2017, 05:41:29 AM
 #1597


The problem is that you cannot use theorem for theology, that's the consensus. The ''proof'' used here is nothing but the same old proof, just using Kurt Godel as an authority but it's the same thing. The same old assumptions without any bases like ''Whatever is outside the biggest circle is an uncaused cause'' or ''then we know what is outside that circle is not matter, is not energy, is not space and is not time. It’s immaterial.''
NO WE DON'T. That's the whole fucking point, we don't know what's outside the circle and even if you know it's not matter, energy or space or time you still don't know that it's ''immaterial'' You are just assuming that, what is ''immaterial'' anyways?

There are many ways to challenge Perry Marshall's argument.

You can as aesma does challenge the claim that the universe is finite. It seems logical that the universe is finite but no one has proven this yet.

You can also argue the the universe is not rational. Just because it is rational and ordered in our section of the universe is not definitive proof. A similar argument could be made that the sun may rise in the west tomorrow.

Perry Marshall argues that if the universe is both rational and finite then it logically and mathematically follows that there is something outside of the universe. That something must logically be boundless, immaterial, indivisible and an uncaused cause.

Immaterial means it is not composed of any form of matter, energy, time, or space as we understand it.

Religion ultimately is a choice of primary intrinsic assumptions. These are the fundamental truths an individual builds ones worldview and life around. Every human being is religious even if that religion is some variation of nihilism or hardcore atheism.

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November 07, 2017, 11:21:25 AM
 #1598


The problem is that you cannot use theorem for theology, that's the consensus. The ''proof'' used here is nothing but the same old proof, just using Kurt Godel as an authority but it's the same thing. The same old assumptions without any bases like ''Whatever is outside the biggest circle is an uncaused cause'' or ''then we know what is outside that circle is not matter, is not energy, is not space and is not time. It’s immaterial.''
NO WE DON'T. That's the whole fucking point, we don't know what's outside the circle and even if you know it's not matter, energy or space or time you still don't know that it's ''immaterial'' You are just assuming that, what is ''immaterial'' anyways?

There are many ways to challenge Perry Marshall's argument.

You can as aesma does challenge the claim that the universe is finite. It seems logical that the universe is finite but no one has proven this yet.

You can also argue the the universe is not rational. Just because it is rational and ordered in our section of the universe is not definitive proof. A similar argument could be made that the sun may rise in the west tomorrow.

Perry Marshall argues that if the universe is both rational and finite then it logically and mathematically follows that there is something outside of the universe. That something must logically be boundless, immaterial, indivisible and an uncaused cause.

Immaterial means it is not composed of any form of matter, energy, time, or space as we understand it.

Religion ultimately is a choice of primary intrinsic assumptions. These are the fundamental truths an individual builds ones worldview and life around. Every human being is religious even if that religion is some variation of nihilism or hardcore atheism.

Even if I would agree with everything, the argument says nothing about the possibility of more causes not just one, why does it necessarily have to be only one uncaused cause and not many uncaused causes, we also don't know what that uncaused cause or causes are, you are just assuming it's god because you are religious.

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November 07, 2017, 04:49:57 PM
Last edit: November 07, 2017, 10:19:01 PM by CoinCube
 #1599

Even if I would agree with everything, the argument says nothing about the possibility of more causes not just one, why does it necessarily have to be only one uncaused cause and not many uncaused causes, we also don't know what that uncaused cause or causes are, you are just assuming it's god because you are religious.

We know that wherever is outside of the universe must logically be boundless, immaterial, indivisible and an uncaused cause. This is not an assumption but a logical necessity if the universe is finite and rational.

Is it rational to infer that this uncaused cause is God?

Well let compare what we derive by logical and mathematical necessity above to what Ethical Monotheism tells us about the nature of God.

The Nature of God
http://www.jewfaq.org/g-d.htm
Quote
God is One
God is a unity. He is a single, whole, complete indivisible entity. He cannot be divided into parts or described by attributes. Any attempt to ascribe attributes to God is merely man's imperfect attempt to understand the infinite.
...

God is Incorporeal
God has no body. Any reference to God's body is simply a figure of speech, a means of making God's actions more comprehensible to beings living in a material world.
...

God is Omnipresent
God is in all places at all times. He fills the universe and exceeds its scope.
...

God is Eternal
God transcends time. He has no beginning and no end.

Note the symmetry between what logically must exist beyond the bounds of the universe and what religious tradition teaches.

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November 07, 2017, 04:54:46 PM
 #1600

OK so I've read it. Let's say I'm unconvinced. For example this : "Now please consider what happens when we draw the biggest circle we possibly can – around the whole universe."

This is stated like this, without any explanation. I disagree that we can draw a circle around the universe. The universe is infinite.

The rest of the proof doesn't matter if that basic axiom is not agreed on.

The problem is that you cannot use Kurt Gödel theorem for theology, that's the consensus. The ''proof'' used here is nothing but the same old proof, just using Kurt Godel as an authority but it's the same thing. The same old assumptions without any bases like ''Whatever is outside the biggest circle is an uncaused cause'' or ''then we know what is outside that circle is not matter, is not energy, is not space and is not time. It’s immaterial.''
NO WE DON'T. That's the whole fucking point, we don't know what's outside the circle and even if you know it's not matter, energy or space or time you still don't know that it's ''immaterial'' You are just assuming that, what is ''immaterial'' anyways?

Wrong! If it was material, it would be part of the universe.

Just because you can go into the garage you built, doesn't mean you are part of it.

Cool

Covid is snake venom. Dr. Bryan Ardis https://thedrardisshow.com/ - Search on 'Bryan Ardis' at these links https://www.bitchute.com/, https://www.brighteon.com/, https://rumble.com/, https://banned.video/.
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