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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3006895 times)
markm
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June 26, 2013, 02:32:46 PM
 #2681

Just because various posts around these forums claim from time to time that actual marginal cost per chip of ASIC chips tends to be in the $0.50 to $2.00 per chip range...

...Are such claims thinking of much smaller-area chips than these? Or could large chips like these be where the extreme high end - the $2.00 per chip - comes in?

Or maybe would a better guestimate include an area to begin with, like "marginal cost for ASIC chips tends to be in the range of $0.50 to $2.00 per 25 square millimeters" or somesuch?

-MarkM-

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Bitcoinorama
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June 26, 2013, 02:35:37 PM
 #2682

Just because various posts around these forums claim from time to time that actual marginal cost per chip of ASIC chips tends to be in the $0.50 to $2.00 per chip range...

...Are such claims thinking of much smaller-area chips than these? Or could large chips like these be where the extreme high end - the $2.00 per chip - comes in?

Or maybe would a better guestimate include an area to begin with, like "marginal cost for ASIC chips tends to be in the range of $0.50 to $2.00 per 25 square millimeters" or somesuch?

-MarkM-

No that quote is mine and it's from the book ASIC Basics. It's a figure from 2005 and will apply to Avalon and ASICminers chips, not custom 28nm...that's expensive, and Sam told me ff on the open day about that. Wink

In effect KnC are putting multiple engines in one massive die, and hoping a higher proportion work!

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markm
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June 26, 2013, 02:39:25 PM
 #2683

Thanks. I kind of suspected they weren't going to be building Saturns out of two marginal-cost-$2.00-chips and Jupiters from four such chips so thought I should bring that up. Smiley

(Though even so, once prices go marginal, difficulty seems likely to be skyrocketing maybe way beyond people's previous worst nightmares! Smiley)

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nightengale
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June 26, 2013, 02:39:39 PM
 #2684

Noticed the 30% increase from applying the ORSoC algorithms has been removed from the product information -- was the increase announced today the result of these?
Bitcoinorama
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June 26, 2013, 02:40:48 PM
 #2685

Noticed the 30% increase from applying the ORSoC algorithms has been removed from the product information -- was the increase announced today the result of these?

No it was the result of the fact Jupiter is 250gh/a standard as they originally stated.

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merv77
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June 26, 2013, 02:47:17 PM
 #2686

EDIT. I was writing this post when another 10 or more posts came from nowhere. Well still relevant post..   Undecided

Because in this business one month is an eternity, I guess you know it.
you are very right with statement above, and even thou I'm optimistic also (and I'm a newbie), I can calculate and use online calculators to know September would be the sweet spot where ROI is still possible. That's with difficulty rise of 1.3% a day as used by http://www.coinish.com/calc/# in expert mode.
and also I'm pretty sure that the designers/manufacturers would roughly guesstimate when their machines will or will not return ROI. 

So my thoughts of the guys running KnC is that they are fully aware and probably aren't gonna have a good night sleep till they make their customers happy.  I feel these guy's like to have a great relationship with their customers, unlike many other companies I've been reading on this forum.

I've also learn't reading on these forums, is that most of these investments in 'mining share' and 'mining hardware' are risky and longer you wait for certainties the more of a chance you will miss the boat.

any way... Thanks for the great news KnC, Cheers  Wink
markm
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June 26, 2013, 02:54:05 PM
 #2687

I expect they have lots of wiggle room. Lots. They upgraded the expected hashes per chip already but it seems likely even the current figures are based on worst case yields, for example.

Basically I suspect they are still underpromising and still have plenty - lots - of room still to overdeliver, maybe by surprising amounts.

-MarkM-

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kendog77
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June 26, 2013, 02:54:12 PM
 #2688

Wow, I am getting more and more interested in KncMiner. They seem to be saying and doing all the right things.

If they can delivery on their claims in September, and do a decent job of keeping up with demand, they will be the new gold standard in Bitcoin mining hardware.
markm
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June 26, 2013, 02:57:49 PM
 #2689

Maybe they will even end up with two new products once they see the actual chips: one-chip Saturns and two-chip Jupiters, made from chips that had very low bad-engine rates! Smiley Cheesy

(Total wild optimism speculation that of course just to stir the pot, but think about it, just how many bad engines per chip are they allowing for?)

On the other hand maybe the die is so massively huge that the number of bad engines per die will tend to average out to much the same for the majority of the dies...

-MarkM-

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Bitcoinorama
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June 26, 2013, 03:11:39 PM
 #2690

Wow, I am getting more and more interested in KncMiner. They seem to be saying and doing all the right things.

If they can delivery on their claims in September, and do a decent job of keeping up with demand, they will be the new gold standard in Bitcoin mining hardware.

In their defence, they at the open day, actually said, "they intend to set the gold standard...", with respect to Bitcoin hardware, fed up seeing a lack of professionalism this far. So let's see...

They want to be in this for the long haul and this means behaving in the best interest for Bitcoin and those that support and use it.

Make my day! Say thanks if you found me helpful Smiley BTC Address --->
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nightengale
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June 26, 2013, 03:29:21 PM
 #2691

Noticed the 30% increase from applying the ORSoC algorithms has been removed from the product information -- was the increase announced today the result of these?

No it was the result of the fact Jupiter is 250gh/a standard as they originally stated.

Great news today, but if you're correct, I'm wondering why they removed the algorithm reference from the product info... (assuming it was intentionally removed)
Bitcoinorama
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June 26, 2013, 03:43:41 PM
 #2692

 
Noticed the 30% increase from applying the ORSoC algorithms has been removed from the product information -- was the increase announced today the result of these?

No it was the result of the fact Jupiter is 250gh/a standard as they originally stated.

Great news today, but if you're correct, I'm wondering why they removed the algorithm reference from the product info... (assuming it was intentionally removed)

Because a few people who weren't here from the start started complaining that if they don't get 30% on 350gh/s they would kick up a stink.

250gh/s + 30% = 325gh/s

400gh/s = 60% on top of 250gh/s

Still some won't have followed the story unfold and will undoubtedly be upset and claim that's not enough. Go figure...

I'm impressed.

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kendog77
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June 26, 2013, 03:50:19 PM
 #2693

Wow, I am getting more and more interested in KncMiner. They seem to be saying and doing all the right things.

If they can delivery on their claims in September, and do a decent job of keeping up with demand, they will be the new gold standard in Bitcoin mining hardware.

In their defence, they at the open day, actually said, "they intend to set the gold standard...", with respect to Bitcoin hardware, fed up seeing a lack of professionalism this far. So let's see...

They want to be in this for the long haul and this means behaving in the best interest for Bitcoin and those that support and use it.

I am rooting for them and really hope they can pull it off. Delivering 28 nm ASIC chips in September that hash at 100 GH/s per chip and use less than 250 watts sounds too good to be true and is light years ahead of their competition.
merv77
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June 26, 2013, 04:01:35 PM
 #2694

Now I'm little confused, but not worried..

isn't it 175GH/s + 30% = 225GH/s and 350GH/s + 30% = 455GH/s
and isn't the Saturn is rated at 200GH/s and the Jupiter is rated at 400GH/s now?

or have I missed something Huh
binaryFate
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June 26, 2013, 04:07:10 PM
 #2695

Now I'm little confused, but not worried..

isn't it 175GH/s + 30% = 225GH/s and 350GH/s + 30% = 455GH/s
and isn't the Saturn is rated at 200GH/s and the Jupiter is rated at 400GH/s now?

or have I missed something Huh

Command man, the answer is JUST two post above yours. You can do it.

Monero's privacy and therefore fungibility are MUCH stronger than Bitcoin's. 
This makes Monero a better candidate to deserve the term "digital cash".
canth
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June 26, 2013, 04:09:47 PM
 #2696

Now I'm little confused, but not worried..

isn't it 175GH/s + 30% = 225GH/s and 350GH/s + 30% = 455GH/s
and isn't the Saturn is rated at 200GH/s and the Jupiter is rated at 400GH/s now?

or have I missed something Huh

Command man, the answer is JUST two post above yours. You can do it.


If KnC were BFL, pre-orders would only be entitled to 350 Gh/s while new orders would get an increased price and 400 Gh/s. Smiley

nightengale
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June 26, 2013, 04:10:36 PM
 #2697

If KnC were BFL, pre-orders would only be entitled to 350 Gh/s while new orders would get an increased price and 400 Gh/s. Smiley

+1  Now that is true.
WillMilk4Coin
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June 26, 2013, 04:26:34 PM
 #2698

Noticed the 30% increase from applying the ORSoC algorithms has been removed from the product information -- was the increase announced today the result of these?
No it was the result of the fact Jupiter is 250gh/a standard as they originally stated.
Great news today, but if you're correct, I'm wondering why they removed the algorithm reference from the product info... (assuming it was intentionally removed)

Bitcoinorama's version of it is that it's KnC making a correction on a mistake or because a "few people" he assumes weren't here from the start - as if that somehow changes KnC's accountability to claims. I'd disagree with him in that regard and I'd wager this update is indeed a part of the 30% improvement they were claiming earlier.
Quote
The performance increase that we can announce today is based on direct feedback from the chip manufacturer who have been working with us for some time now. They have come back to us confirming the performance improvements in our RTL code.
While it may have been more convenient for this whole 30% gain argument if they would have said explicitly the % gain was from the RTL code from the start, it would still stand to reason that the previously mentioned "advanced algorithms" and the RTL code are one and the same. In keeping with KnC's pattern of carefully choosing their binding terms, I wouldn't be surprised if the feedback they got from their chip manufacturer was even better than this 15% pump and they're continuing to temper expectations. If I were a betting man, I'd say the final hashing speed of Jupiter will be >400.

I'll hold to this understanding as nobody has provided any actual evidence to the contrary, beyond the, "Well, the 30% bonus was claimed on the 250Gh/s listing so the bump up to 350Gh/s must be the result even though KnC hasn't confirmed it" claim. All things considered, however, this whole argument is moot and not worth the breath wasted on it really. I was already happy with the aforementioned 350 Gh/s.

Because a few people who weren't here from the start started complaining that if they don't get 30% on 350gh/s they would kick up a stink.
"....."
..sorry, but LOL. So THAT's why they removed it? Roll Eyes I don't remember seeing anyone say they would kick up a stink if it wasn't a 30% improvement, btw. The explanation you had provided in the "Magic Algo" thread wasn't anything but a backlog of irrelevant history and entirely lacking in actual definitive evidence. Too many assumptions, Bitcoinorama. Too many.
Quote
I know it still appears like the 30% isn't added, but it is.
..this statement I did very much enjoy, though.

Ok, enough from me about this. I'm done with it.
keyzersoze
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June 26, 2013, 04:36:22 PM
 #2699

Noticed the 30% increase from applying the ORSoC algorithms has been removed from the product information -- was the increase announced today the result of these?
No it was the result of the fact Jupiter is 250gh/a standard as they originally stated.
Great news today, but if you're correct, I'm wondering why they removed the algorithm reference from the product info... (assuming it was intentionally removed)

Bitcoinorama's version of it is that it's KnC making a correction on a mistake or because a "few people" he assumes weren't here from the start - as if that somehow changes KnC's accountable claims. I'd disagree with him in that regard and I'd wager this update is indeed a part of the 30% improvement they were claiming earlier.
Quote
The performance increase that we can announce today is based on direct feedback from the chip manufacturer who have been working with us for some time now. They have come back to us confirming the performance improvements in our RTL code.
While it may have been more convenient for this whole 30% gain argument if they would have said explicitly the % gain was from the RTL code from the start, it would still stand to reason that the previously mentioned "advanced algorithms" and the RTL code are one and the same. In keeping with KnC's pattern of carefully choosing their binding terms, I wouldn't be surprised if the feedback they got from their chip manufacturer was even better than this 15% pump and they're continuing to temper expectations. If I were a betting man, I'd say the final hashing speed of Jupiter will be >400.

I'll hold to this understanding as nobody has provided any actual evidence to the contrary, beyond the, "Well, the 30% bonus was claimed on the 250Gh/s listing so the bump up to 350Gh/s must be the result even though KnC hasn't confirmed it" claim. All things considered, however, this whole argument is moot and not worth the breath wasted on it really. I was already happy with the aforementioned 350 Gh/s.

Because a few people who weren't here from the start started complaining that if they don't get 30% on 350gh/s they would kick up a stink.
"....."
..sorry, but LOL. So THAT's why they removed it? Roll Eyes I don't remember seeing anyone say they would kick up a stink if it wasn't a 30% improvement, btw. The explanation you had provided in the "Magic Algo" thread wasn't anything but a backlog of irrelevant history and entirely lacking in actual definitive evidence. Too many assumptions, Bitcoinorama. Too many.
Quote
I know it still appears like the 30% isn't added, but it is.
..this statement I did very much enjoy, though.

Ok, enough from me about this. I'm done with it.

Same here, i was happy with175/350. Was hoping for an additional increase and here we have it.
15% is more than 0%, and just 15% away from 30%.  With a little luck, we migh just get to 30% by september.

Bowjob
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June 26, 2013, 04:39:45 PM
 #2700

So basically they won't give you a shipping que.. until you paid the order. But they will remove your order after 7 days? What's the point then. after 7 days you can reorder anyway.. or am I missing something?

It seemed like a good idea at the time.
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