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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3006562 times)
idee2013
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June 06, 2013, 05:23:11 AM
 #2021

Got an email from sam a few minutes ago with an answer for the EU thresholds and EU VAT:

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Hi
 
Yes you will have to pay the German VAT unless you have a German VAT number
 
But we will sort this out in the next few weeks with you if that’s ok as you have already paid, we have to take 25% for the first 100,000 Euros per year we are over that now so it will all be 19% from today onwards
 
We will contact you bout this unique situation at a later date if that’s ok
 
Sam
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June 06, 2013, 07:04:38 AM
 #2022

Hi , their TandC concerns me .. they are a few escape clause they could use for not refunding you, how would paypal react in such a case since you agreed to their T&C? Here is what I copy from another thread.

" 8.2  Where delivery is delayed due to any of the circumstances constituting force majeure in accordance with 11 below or due to any act or omission by the Purchaser, the delivery period shall be extended by such a period as is reasonable in light of the circumstances.  The delivery period shall also be extended where the cause of the delay arises after the expiry of the originally agreed delivery period.

 11. Force Majeure

11.1 KnCMiner is exempted from fulfilling its obligations under this Agreement and is entitled to cancel the Purchaser’s confirmed orders without any liability, in the event of force majeure such as strikes, floods and fires, wars, riots, interruptions in transport, shortage of material or energy sources affecting KnCMiner or its sub-suppliers, accidents or other occurrences which affects sub-suppliers’ production, bankruptcy or compulsory liquidation of a sub-supplier, accidents of any kind, governmental decisions which affects manufacturing or use of the Products and, in general, such events that were unforeseen at the time of the order which prevents or hinder manufacturing, transportation or delivery of the Products to the Purchaser.



9.2  Termination and rescission under this section shall not under any circumstances give rise to any obligation for KnCMiner to pay compensation to the Purchaser, and does not restrict KnCMiner’s possibility to claim damages or other economic compensation due to the event which justified KnCMiner to terminate the order or the Agreement. "



idee2013
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June 06, 2013, 07:08:43 AM
 #2023

Next mail from Sam (VAT percentage question, EU germans, private buyers).
Note: (Other EU countries have other VAT percentages)

my question:

Quote
So if i pay now  and if at delivery time you have reached the 100000€, there will be a 6% refund from you? 25%-19%

Answer from sam:
Quote
Hi

Technically that is true but we are over already so its 19% now for all unpaid orders

Sam
KS
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June 06, 2013, 07:20:57 AM
 #2024


...

I'm very sure they've collected over a million dollars in the past few days. I'd venture to say that they are more than "Barely" Functioning.

...

Agreed. I'd estimate that they've received several million dollars:

- over 1000 orders
- assume at least 500 are paid

Even with just single Saturn orders, this comes out to $1.9m. With Jupiter or multiple orders, it could be 2-5x that much. They've got plenty of incentive to not screw up and risk cancellations (or at least CC disputes).

B.F.L.

A few good things about KNCMiner:
KNCMiner seems to have a way better relationship with the community than BFL has.
They are partnered with an actual ASIC design firm with real talent.
They developed a prototype (based on FPGAs) without taking customer money. They are developing the ASIC chip(s) in parallel (according to KNC) without taking customer money.

I am skeptical, but I am also hopeful and optimistic.

Hopeless is more like it Wink

There's no reasoning some ppl. They've pretty much demonstrated they're a kludge business-wise (ORSoC taking care of engineering is the better thing), made false claims (did you know that KNCMINER was really registered in mid-may?) and whatnot.

Though it does not demonstrate they will run away with your money, nor fail shipping a miner, it just shows the kind of ppl they are. Whether you want to support those kind of behaviors is up to you but it's really not helping to keep ppl honest around here, and will just help attract MORE scammers.

Everyone should take a deep breath and just wait for someone to actually ship sth before throwing money at the first passerby. But good luck seeing that happen...

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June 06, 2013, 07:22:19 AM
 #2025

How's this compare to the frostbit ;-)

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June 06, 2013, 07:28:27 AM
 #2026

@dan99:

Yep new definition for Force Majeure: "just whatever and we don't have to pay you or ship you anything AND we can still sue you for damages".

They take the money and assume no responsibility.

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ElGabo
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June 06, 2013, 08:12:03 AM
 #2027

How can you call them? The tel number wich has given is not working for me...Huh

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June 06, 2013, 08:18:21 AM
 #2028

Hi , their TandC concerns me .. they are a few escape clause they could use for not refunding you, how would paypal react in such a case since you agreed to their T&C? Here is what I copy from another thread.

" 8.2  Where delivery is delayed due to any of the circumstances constituting force majeure in accordance with 11 below or due to any act or omission by the Purchaser, the delivery period shall be extended by such a period as is reasonable in light of the circumstances.  The delivery period shall also be extended where the cause of the delay arises after the expiry of the originally agreed delivery period.

 11. Force Majeure

11.1 KnCMiner is exempted from fulfilling its obligations under this Agreement and is entitled to cancel the Purchaser’s confirmed orders without any liability, in the event of force majeure such as strikes, floods and fires, wars, riots, interruptions in transport, shortage of material or energy sources affecting KnCMiner or its sub-suppliers, accidents or other occurrences which affects sub-suppliers’ production, bankruptcy or compulsory liquidation of a sub-supplier, accidents of any kind, governmental decisions which affects manufacturing or use of the Products and, in general, such events that were unforeseen at the time of the order which prevents or hinder manufacturing, transportation or delivery of the Products to the Purchaser.

9.2  Termination and rescission under this section shall not under any circumstances give rise to any obligation for KnCMiner to pay compensation to the Purchaser, and does not restrict KnCMiner’s possibility to claim damages or other economic compensation due to the event which justified KnCMiner to terminate the order or the Agreement. "

Isn't this a veeery normal thing to have in such an agreement?
idee2013
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June 06, 2013, 08:28:54 AM
 #2029

How can you call them? The tel number wich has given is not working for me...Huh


not only for you, i think they have paused the number in some way, because they are extremly busy.
Write them if you habe real issues. Sam i really answering every mail. I got 3 today from him with question i asked him an thursday and yesterday.
They are extremly busy and of course they need to take much time for the opendays and preparation for the opendays.
 
ElGabo
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June 06, 2013, 08:35:17 AM
 #2030

I could called them. I spoke with Andreas, he was very helpfull.  Smiley

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idee2013
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June 06, 2013, 09:20:55 AM
 #2031

If the miner ever arrives, I'll be using this http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139014
Single rail is the best choice

Remember 1000 watt power supplies add $200 per jupiter

did they say what type yet?  

wouldn't be wise to go cheap on it considering you want some very stable rails

this ones could be right choices for jupiters, too.

http://geizhals.de/pc-power-cooling-silencer-mk-iii-1200w-atx-2-3-ppcmk3s1200-a820697.html?v=l

http://geizhals.de/zalman-zm1250-platinum-1250w-atx-2-3-a819265.html?v=l

http://geizhals.de/enermax-maxrevo-1350w-atx-2-3-emr1350ewt-a655182.html?v=l

at the moment i prefere the first one with 7 years of warranty

http://www.ocaholic.ch/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=824
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June 06, 2013, 09:25:33 AM
 #2032



and waiting now.(
blastbob
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June 06, 2013, 09:55:07 AM
 #2033



Wonder if i am going to a be a bagholder in the end Smiley

Psst.. Got Ether?
jeroenn13
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June 06, 2013, 10:06:17 AM
 #2034



Wonder if i am going to a be a bagholder in the end Smiley

28K. Brilliant.
Was happy I paid 1 Saturn Smiley
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June 06, 2013, 10:08:21 AM
 #2035

28K. Brilliant.
Was happy I paid 1 Saturn Smiley

.)) yes, same here.
idee2013
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June 06, 2013, 10:09:07 AM
 #2036

Lottery is closed

https://www.kncminer.com/news/news-16
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June 06, 2013, 10:49:09 AM
 #2037

Hi , their TandC concerns me .. they are a few escape clause they could use for not refunding you, how would paypal react in such a case since you agreed to their T&C? Here is what I copy from another thread.

" 8.2  Where delivery is delayed due to any of the circumstances constituting force majeure in accordance with 11 below or due to any act or omission by the Purchaser, the delivery period shall be extended by such a period as is reasonable in light of the circumstances.  The delivery period shall also be extended where the cause of the delay arises after the expiry of the originally agreed delivery period.

 11. Force Majeure

11.1 KnCMiner is exempted from fulfilling its obligations under this Agreement and is entitled to cancel the Purchaser’s confirmed orders without any liability, in the event of force majeure such as strikes, floods and fires, wars, riots, interruptions in transport, shortage of material or energy sources affecting KnCMiner or its sub-suppliers, accidents or other occurrences which affects sub-suppliers’ production, bankruptcy or compulsory liquidation of a sub-supplier, accidents of any kind, governmental decisions which affects manufacturing or use of the Products and, in general, such events that were unforeseen at the time of the order which prevents or hinder manufacturing, transportation or delivery of the Products to the Purchaser.



9.2  Termination and rescission under this section shall not under any circumstances give rise to any obligation for KnCMiner to pay compensation to the Purchaser, and does not restrict KnCMiner’s possibility to claim damages or other economic compensation due to the event which justified KnCMiner to terminate the order or the Agreement. "





I'm not a lawyer but pay attention to the wording "and is entitled to cancel the Purchaser’s confirmed orders without any liability" I believe there trying to limit the liability if they don't deliver, however I do not believe this allows them to simply keep the money. It does however seem very clear that they can cancel that order for whatever reason, but would imply that one could receive a refund... Again, I'm not a lawyer on this, but I think that is what this is trying to state... Anyone know any lawyers you can run this across??
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June 06, 2013, 10:53:36 AM
 #2038

Hi , their TandC concerns me .. they are a few escape clause they could use for not refunding you, how would paypal react in such a case since you agreed to their T&C? Here is what I copy from another thread.

" 8.2  Where delivery is delayed due to any of the circumstances constituting force majeure in accordance with 11 below or due to any act or omission by the Purchaser, the delivery period shall be extended by such a period as is reasonable in light of the circumstances.  The delivery period shall also be extended where the cause of the delay arises after the expiry of the originally agreed delivery period.

 11. Force Majeure

11.1 KnCMiner is exempted from fulfilling its obligations under this Agreement and is entitled to cancel the Purchaser’s confirmed orders without any liability, in the event of force majeure such as strikes, floods and fires, wars, riots, interruptions in transport, shortage of material or energy sources affecting KnCMiner or its sub-suppliers, accidents or other occurrences which affects sub-suppliers’ production, bankruptcy or compulsory liquidation of a sub-supplier, accidents of any kind, governmental decisions which affects manufacturing or use of the Products and, in general, such events that were unforeseen at the time of the order which prevents or hinder manufacturing, transportation or delivery of the Products to the Purchaser.



9.2  Termination and rescission under this section shall not under any circumstances give rise to any obligation for KnCMiner to pay compensation to the Purchaser, and does not restrict KnCMiner’s possibility to claim damages or other economic compensation due to the event which justified KnCMiner to terminate the order or the Agreement. "





I'm not a lawyer but pay attention to the wording "and is entitled to cancel the Purchaser’s confirmed orders without any liability" I believe there trying to limit the liability if they don't deliver, however I do not believe this allows them to simply keep the money. It does however seem very clear that they can cancel that order for whatever reason, but would imply that one could receive a refund... Again, I'm not a lawyer on this, but I think that is what this is trying to state... Anyone know any lawyers you can run this across??

I'm not a lawyer, but my wife is.

This is a pretty standard disclaimer. It doesn't stop you from seeking remedy, and it doesn't absolve them of financial liability altogether either. It's a wartime clause, essentially. If the factory gets bombed you can't hold KNC responsible for being unable to deliver. That sort of thing. I've seen very similar clauses in a number of contracts involving international commerce, and you'll see more of it as the world goes more mad.

If a corporate officer has stated that refunds will be issued, and under what terms, that should supercede this clause in that specific scenario, while still covering their ass in the event of disruptions beyond their forseeable control. I don't find it troubling. Granted, I don't (yet) have any skin in the game.

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June 06, 2013, 11:06:37 AM
 #2039

Hi , their TandC concerns me .. they are a few escape clause they could use for not refunding you, how would paypal react in such a case since you agreed to their T&C? Here is what I copy from another thread.

" 8.2  Where delivery is delayed due to any of the circumstances constituting force majeure in accordance with 11 below or due to any act or omission by the Purchaser, the delivery period shall be extended by such a period as is reasonable in light of the circumstances.  The delivery period shall also be extended where the cause of the delay arises after the expiry of the originally agreed delivery period.

 11. Force Majeure

11.1 KnCMiner is exempted from fulfilling its obligations under this Agreement and is entitled to cancel the Purchaser’s confirmed orders without any liability, in the event of force majeure such as strikes, floods and fires, wars, riots, interruptions in transport, shortage of material or energy sources affecting KnCMiner or its sub-suppliers, accidents or other occurrences which affects sub-suppliers’ production, bankruptcy or compulsory liquidation of a sub-supplier, accidents of any kind, governmental decisions which affects manufacturing or use of the Products and, in general, such events that were unforeseen at the time of the order which prevents or hinder manufacturing, transportation or delivery of the Products to the Purchaser.



9.2  Termination and rescission under this section shall not under any circumstances give rise to any obligation for KnCMiner to pay compensation to the Purchaser, and does not restrict KnCMiner’s possibility to claim damages or other economic compensation due to the event which justified KnCMiner to terminate the order or the Agreement. "





I'm not a lawyer but pay attention to the wording "and is entitled to cancel the Purchaser’s confirmed orders without any liability" I believe there trying to limit the liability if they don't deliver, however I do not believe this allows them to simply keep the money. It does however seem very clear that they can cancel that order for whatever reason, but would imply that one could receive a refund... Again, I'm not a lawyer on this, but I think that is what this is trying to state... Anyone know any lawyers you can run this across??

I'm not a lawyer, but my wife is.

This is a pretty standard disclaimer. It doesn't stop you from seeking remedy, and it doesn't absolve them of financial liability altogether either. It's a wartime clause, essentially. If the factory gets bombed you can't hold KNC responsible for being unable to deliver. That sort of thing. I've seen very similar clauses in a number of contracts involving international commerce, and you'll see more of it as the world goes more mad.

If a corporate officer has stated that refunds will be issued, and under what terms, that should supercede this clause in that specific scenario, while still covering their ass in the event of disruptions beyond their forseeable control. I don't find it troubling. Granted, I don't (yet) have any skin in the game.

FWIW, purely as an observation, and not legally through the eyes of the consumer;

It looks like they have considered every sceneraio and respective point of failure, as in risk for themselves, based upon every clusterf**k Butterfly Labs have created and are ensuing their ass in future no way resembles that of BFL's currently...in addition they don't want to be liable for itchy feet if something unexpected starts to happen with respect to hashrate and unknown entities (or known entities getting their sh*t together during KnC's period of manufacture).

That said, a wealthy guy I know imparted this mantra upon me; "he/she who writes the first draft almost always gets what they want, as the intent of the document has been specified by themselves"...so anyone wanting different T&Cs dropped the ball there...

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KS
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June 06, 2013, 11:09:46 AM
 #2040

Hi , their TandC concerns me .. they are a few escape clause they could use for not refunding you, how would paypal react in such a case since you agreed to their T&C? Here is what I copy from another thread.

" 8.2  Where delivery is delayed due to any of the circumstances constituting force majeure in accordance with 11 below or due to any act or omission by the Purchaser, the delivery period shall be extended by such a period as is reasonable in light of the circumstances.  The delivery period shall also be extended where the cause of the delay arises after the expiry of the originally agreed delivery period.

 11. Force Majeure

11.1 KnCMiner is exempted from fulfilling its obligations under this Agreement and is entitled to cancel the Purchaser’s confirmed orders without any liability, in the event of force majeure such as strikes, floods and fires, wars, riots, interruptions in transport, shortage of material or energy sources affecting KnCMiner or its sub-suppliers, accidents or other occurrences which affects sub-suppliers’ production, bankruptcy or compulsory liquidation of a sub-supplier, accidents of any kind, governmental decisions which affects manufacturing or use of the Products and, in general, such events that were unforeseen at the time of the order which prevents or hinder manufacturing, transportation or delivery of the Products to the Purchaser.



9.2  Termination and rescission under this section shall not under any circumstances give rise to any obligation for KnCMiner to pay compensation to the Purchaser, and does not restrict KnCMiner’s possibility to claim damages or other economic compensation due to the event which justified KnCMiner to terminate the order or the Agreement. "





I'm not a lawyer but pay attention to the wording "and is entitled to cancel the Purchaser’s confirmed orders without any liability" I believe there trying to limit the liability if they don't deliver, however I do not believe this allows them to simply keep the money. It does however seem very clear that they can cancel that order for whatever reason, but would imply that one could receive a refund... Again, I'm not a lawyer on this, but I think that is what this is trying to state... Anyone know any lawyers you can run this across??

I'm not a lawyer, but my wife is.

This is a pretty standard disclaimer. It doesn't stop you from seeking remedy, and it doesn't absolve them of financial liability altogether either. It's a wartime clause, essentially. If the factory gets bombed you can't hold KNC responsible for being unable to deliver. That sort of thing. I've seen very similar clauses in a number of contracts involving international commerce, and you'll see more of it as the world goes more mad.

If a corporate officer has stated that refunds will be issued, and under what terms, that should supercede this clause in that specific scenario, while still covering their ass in the event of disruptions beyond their forseeable control. I don't find it troubling. Granted, I don't (yet) have any skin in the game.

"Force Majeure" is a standard clause but their version of it extends to pretty much anything and everything. Not really force *Majeure* then.

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List of major BTC scams https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=576337
Bitstamp "no transfer" banks/countries list: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=270716.0
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