klee
Legendary
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Activity: 1498
Merit: 1000
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July 13, 2013, 08:25:47 AM |
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gee, pray tell me, what exactly will be the next gen chip? AFAIK KNC's Chip is practically top notch, only optimising it would yield better hashrates...
Obviously something not based on standard cell design, eg. a 28nm version of Bitfury's design. I went more futuristic lol |
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Mota
Legendary
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Activity: 804
Merit: 1002
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July 13, 2013, 08:35:30 AM |
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at 150million diff. my mercury will still make me 30 bucks a day. thats pretty damn good to me.
It could also make zero or several hundred dollars per day, you don't know what the price of BTC will be when you get the mercury, so the 150mill diff is not the determining factor. If most of the Avalon, ASICminer, and BFL rigs stop being profitable and give up, then guess who will get more of the BTC? The KNCminer owners, until something more efficient comes along. Fair point @ 1st paragraph. As for the 2nd, people mining with Avalon, ASICminer, Bitfury earlier than KnC will have the funds to move to the next gen chips which will make KnC's obsolete. Small window here if they won't deliver on time... gee, pray tell me, what exactly will be the next gen chip? AFAIK KNC's Chip is practically top notch, only optimising it would yield better hashrates... 3d transistors, energy efficiency, memristors, graphene whatever... Do you think chip evolution will stop with some Orsoc innovating? That would be bad!  I don't think that. BUT I know that currently 22nm is the best one can do. Smaller nodes are in the r&d stage. And 22nm is currently that much more expensive! Of course there are ways to make better chips, but it will certainly not be a next gen chip, more of a modified current gen chip. And a not-standard-cell design will also be, again, way more expensive in the making. And who would make that design/pay for its production? Our chinese friends with 35% of global hashing power certainly won't. they don't need to since space and power costs are nearly non existent. Avalon maybe, but I don't think they could pull it off in time to make a difference. |
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ujka
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July 13, 2013, 12:22:47 PM |
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Tried to put together a table with ASIC chips estimating how many chips (and GH/s) can go on a single wafer: wafer(mm) chip process(nm) die(mm^2) GH/s(per chip) DpW GH/s(per wafer)
300 KnC 28 454,00 100 124 12400,00
300 bitfury 55 14,44 2 4717 9434,00
300 bfl 65 56,25 4 1167 4668,00
300 asciminer(?) 130 17,50 0,333 3877 1291,04
300 avalon 110 16,13 0,282 4214 1188,35
300 asciminer(?) 130 21,7 0,333 3112 1036,30
(DpW, die per wafer; yield percentage not taken into account)
KnC die size is not known, so I used 15% of their package size. Still a big die. Would be nice to know the yield percentage for 28nm process. Found this chart, still studying it:  |
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mvidetto
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July 13, 2013, 02:00:19 PM |
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Anyone considering their hosting option? Seems like a large amount of money to front coupled with the fact that you need to accept a 6 month contract...
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nightengale
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July 13, 2013, 02:41:59 PM |
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Anyone considering their hosting option? Seems like a large amount of money to front coupled with the fact that you need to accept a 6 month contract...
For me it depends on the difficulty when my unit becomes available, the USD price of BTC at that time, as well as whether they will accept payment in BTC. If difficulty is way high and the profit margin is slim, I can run it less expensively at home, but would prefer it run there b/c of the guaranteed uptime. If they do come up with optimizations, I'm assuming they will make them available to everyone and not just hosted units... |
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Loredo
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July 13, 2013, 03:06:48 PM |
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Anyone considering their hosting option? Seems like a large amount of money to front coupled with the fact that you need to accept a 6 month contract...
For me it depends on the difficulty when my unit becomes available, the USD price of BTC at that time, as well as whether they will accept payment in BTC. If difficulty is way high and the profit margin is slim, I can run it less expensively at home, but would prefer it run there b/c of the guaranteed uptime. If they do come up with optimizations, I'm assuming they will make them available to everyone and not just hosted units... My two cents on this: This is going to be new equipment. Engineers always find tweaks and/or needed patches in things. If they're hosted, those will happen for sure. If you're in the USA or Asia, you avoid all the issues in shipping and customs. You want this stuff run - and monitored - literally 24/7. That is not practicable running it at home. If they're smart - and they are - they'll provide equipment reinvestment or pool participation as an option. Hosting would facilitate this; in fact, such things might require hosted equipment. |
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merv77
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July 13, 2013, 04:36:46 PM |
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If they're smart - and they are - they'll provide equipment reinvestment or pool participation as an option. Hosting would facilitate this; in fact, such things might require hosted equipment.
hosting maybe a practical option but how can reinvestment help when difficulty reaches 1.6 billion and over? 400 GH/s with 1.6 billion difficulty and rate 1 BTC = $93 USD revenue for 1 month is $348.67 USD what could be options to keep them running if hosting is costing $350 USD a month. I know one option is for the value of BTC to rise, but this can't be controlled and it could also go down. I'm not trying to put anyone off hosting or mining, I just like to know more or maybe we can come up with some options here before deciding on hosting. |
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androz
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July 13, 2013, 04:55:53 PM |
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imao hosting for the first 6 months could be the best choice
this is the critic period, if something goes wrong in that time (custom, shipping, hw problems) u will lose part of the most profitable time spot.
after u could evaluate if it is convenient to renew the hosting with more data available
one question
if u choose hosting u don't pay shipping, electricity and VAT
(u will pay VAT when u decide to import hw in ur country, right?)
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Vycid
Sr. Member
Offline
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
♫ the AM bear who cares ♫
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July 13, 2013, 05:19:08 PM |
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Tried to put together a table with ASIC chips estimating how many chips (and GH/s) can go on a single wafer: wafer(mm) chip process(nm) die(mm^2) GH/s(per chip) DpW GH/s(per wafer)
300 KnC 28 454,00 100 124 12400,00
300 bitfury 55 14,44 2 4717 9434,00
300 bfl 65 56,25 4 1167 4668,00
300 asciminer(?) 130 17,50 0,333 3877 1291,04
300 avalon 110 16,13 0,282 4214 1188,35
300 asciminer(?) 130 21,7 0,333 3112 1036,30
(DpW, die per wafer; yield percentage not taken into account)
KnC die size is not known, so I used 15% of their package size. Still a big die. Would be nice to know the yield percentage for 28nm process. Found this chart, still studying it: Obviously the yield depends on the killer defect density. The killer defect density depends on the tools and recipes being used in the process, the number of unit steps in the process, and the ability of the fab to do a good job with process control. Most fabs will not run processes at lower than 70% yield because it is very difficult to be profitable. |
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Phoenix1969
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 938
Merit: 1000
LIR DEV
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July 13, 2013, 05:27:16 PM |
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at 150million diff. my mercury will still make me 30 bucks a day. thats pretty damn good to me.
It could also make zero or several hundred dollars per day, you don't know what the price of BTC will be when you get the mercury, so the 150mill diff is not the determining factor. If most of the Avalon, ASICminer, and BFL rigs stop being profitable and give up, then guess who will get more of the BTC? The KNCminer owners, until something more efficient comes along. Fair point @ 1st paragraph. As for the 2nd, people mining with Avalon, ASICminer, Bitfury earlier than KnC will have the funds to move to the next gen chips which will make KnC's obsolete. Small window here if they won't deliver on time... gee, pray tell me, what exactly will be the next gen chip? AFAIK KNC's Chip is practically top notch, only optimising it would yield better hashrates... 3d transistors, energy efficiency, memristors, graphene whatever... Do you think chip evolution will stop with some Orsoc innovating? That would be bad! I don't think that. BUT I know that currently 22nm is the best one can do. Smaller nodes are in the r&d stage. And 22nm is currently that much more expensive! Of course there are ways to make better chips, but it will certainly not be a next gen chip, more of a modified current gen chip. And a not-standard-cell design will also be, again, way more expensive in the making. And who would make that design/pay for its production? Our chinese friends with 35% of global hashing power certainly won't. they don't need to since space and power costs are nearly non existent. Avalon maybe, but I don't think they could pull it off in time to make a difference. I have to agree with keenan & enk.. facts are facts.. KNC rigs are over 2 times more efficient than the next closest competitor, BFL. who is @ 2700 watts for 500GH, when KNC is less than 1000 watts for 400 Gh/s, so they mathematically will outlast those machines by over a factor of two! Not to mention they paid 50 dollars per gigahash, (2500/50), when KNC's is only 17.50 per Gigahash (7000/400), thats almost 1/3 the cost per Gigahash. So, 1/3 the price per Gh/s, and over twice the performance!!! I look for KNC to be in the game for Quite some time! |
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JohnyBigs
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July 13, 2013, 06:15:00 PM |
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We need to ask support for a hosting plan for the Saturns.
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JohnyBigs
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July 13, 2013, 06:20:43 PM |
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Question that just crossed my mind will these units come with power supplies? Or do we provide our own?
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canth
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1442
Merit: 1001
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July 13, 2013, 06:21:13 PM |
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We need to ask support for a hosting plan for the Saturns.
Depending upon the price of bitcoin and difficultly, it's very likely that a hosting plan won't be inexpensive enough for KnC or profitable enough for the customer. You can ask, but KnC is doing this because it's not in Saturn owners' interest to pay hosting fees. |
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rustyh17
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July 13, 2013, 06:21:43 PM |
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Question that just crossed my mind will these units come with power supplies? Or do we provide our own?
your own. |
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canth
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1442
Merit: 1001
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July 13, 2013, 06:22:10 PM |
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Question that just crossed my mind will these units come with power supplies? Or do we provide our own?
We provide our own. We know that the max will be 1000w for a Jupiter or 500w with a Saturn - hold off on buying one until the final specs are confirmed, which is expected relatively soon. |
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JohnyBigs
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July 13, 2013, 06:23:42 PM |
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We need to ask support for a hosting plan for the Saturns.
Depending upon the price of bitcoin and difficultly, it's very likely that a hosting plan won't be inexpensive enough for KnC or profitable enough for the customer. You can ask, but KnC is doing this because it's not in Saturn owners' interest to pay hosting fees. Possibly even $350 for Jupiter is alot, when if you host yourself electricity will be about $90/mo on the high end. |
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JohnyBigs
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July 13, 2013, 06:25:16 PM |
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Question that just crossed my mind will these units come with power supplies? Or do we provide our own?
We provide our own. We know that the max will be 1000w for a Jupiter or 500w with a Saturn - hold off on buying one until the final specs are confirmed, which is expected relatively soon. I have 3 from my mining rigs, and will want 1000w anyway since i can upgrade the saturn. |
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soniq
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July 13, 2013, 06:25:50 PM |
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We need to ask support for a hosting plan for the Saturns.
says right in news release that KNC will only host Jupiters |
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canth
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1442
Merit: 1001
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July 13, 2013, 06:26:01 PM |
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We need to ask support for a hosting plan for the Saturns.
Depending upon the price of bitcoin and difficultly, it's very likely that a hosting plan won't be inexpensive enough for KnC or profitable enough for the customer. You can ask, but KnC is doing this because it's not in Saturn owners' interest to pay hosting fees. Possibly even $350 for Jupiter is alot, when if you host yourself electricity will be about $90/mo on the high end. For me it's $150/month for electricity, but yes - it's a question about how profitable it will end up being. I did the calculation and if I factor in shipping + power + possible downtime it comes out to about a wash for 6 months. |
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