Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[xyzzy099]

Socialism is defined as (quote): "a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole".

That's a pretty narrow definition of what is actually a very broad political term.

In the German government of the Nazis every citizen was guaranteed a job by the government.  Education at government expense was guaranteed to every citizen.  Housing, healthcare, etc was either free or heavily subsidized by the government.  This may not seem very radical now, but at the time it would definitely have been considered very liberal, and yes even socialist.

I understand that people who have positive notions of socialism cringe at the notion of socialism being associated with the Nazis, but socialism really is just a broad political term, and the Nazi government does fit broadly into that category.

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[JimboToronto]

Nowadays people use right-wing as synonymous with conservative or republican, but that is not the sense in which they Nazis were right wing - they were certainly not conservative in any conceivable way, nor were they republican.

The Wikipedia entry on (small-r) "republicanism" describes it as (quote): "Republicanism is an ideology of being a citizen in a state as a republic under which the people hold popular sovereignty.

As such it has more in common with the left wing than the right. (socialism: a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole).

Republicanism and socialism are both systems that put power in the hands of the common citizens instead of the ruling elite.

The (capital-R) Republican Party is as much a misnomer as calling the Nazis "socialists".

[Holliday]

I don't care what "ism" you are talking about, anytime concerns about a conceptual group are placed above the concerns of actual individuals, it's going to be a bad time.

[xyzzy099]

Nowadays people use right-wing as synonymous with conservative or republican, but that is not the sense in which they Nazis were right wing - they were certainly not conservative in any conceivable way, nor were they republican.

The Wikipedia entry on (small-r) "republicanism" describes it as (quote): "Republicanism is an ideology of being a citizen in a state as a republic under which the people hold popular sovereignty.

As such it has more in common with the left wing than the right. (socialism: a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole).

Republicanism and socialism are both systems that put power in the hands of the common citizens instead of the ruling elite.

The (capital-R) Republican Party is as much a misnomer as calling the Nazis "socialists".

I wasn't trying to define 'republican' - I was defining 'left-wing/right-wing'.

The term comes from the French legislature after the revolution, where the Monarchists sat on the right side of the corridor, and basically everyone else sat on the left.

As I said, when people use the term 'right-wing' nowadays, they are usually using it as a synonym for conservatism in general, or, in the US, as what they perceive the Republican party to be - but I think we can both agree that the Nazis were not in any way conservative, and had no political similarity to the US Republican party at all.

The Nazis were right-wing only in the original sense, as were the Monarchists.  The Nazis believed their racial group was naturally superior to others, just as Monarchists believed their family genetics were superior and entitled them to rule.

[Bitmore]

Good morning Bitcoinland.

Still flat sideways in $880-$930 range... currently $924 USD (Bitcoinaverage).

Maybe the weekend will bring some real movement.

Elwar,

since you just applied Goodwins law to this thread, in a way that is completely unrelated to wall observing BTC/USD tracking. I will just ask you to do us a favor.

Please, do not never ever breed.

You've gotta cut Elwar some slack. I think he's American.

Americans seem to have a different definition of "socialist" from the rest of the world. Due to media brainwashing and perhaps a less-than-optimal educational system, many Americans seem to think that socialists and fascists are the same, rather than being bitter enemies. They don't realize that fascism is a right-wing phenomenon while socialists are left-wing.

They tend to call "centralized government" what the rest of the world sees as civil infrastructure. They also like to think of a heavily incarcerated civilian population and government data-mining as "freedom" or "liberty".

 

I think you are confused as to what is 'left wing' versus 'right wing'.   
IF you use the scale of government control over the individual, and the sacrifice of individual rights 'for the good of the whole (collective)" then fascism and socialism are indeed on the same side as totalitarianism, as opposed to free market libertarians wanting as little government control as possible, thus gravitating toward anarchism, or no laws or government control.

There is a lot of revisionist history going on today.  Hitler and Stalin were in fact allies,,, until Hitler betrayed him and invaded poland and headed toward Stalingrad and Moscow.   In fact, the death camps were a Soviet design by some accounts.  Stalin and the USSR was left of Hitler Germany, but both were far left of any free market, individual rights respecting democracy.

[K~Ehleyr]

Ok, so we've established that Marine Le Pen's performance in the French polls could affect the price of Bitcoin, yes? 

Anyone here remember Bitcoin? 

Mooooon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JimboToronto]

I wasn't trying to define 'republican' - I was defining 'left-wing/right-wing'.

The term comes from the French legislature after the revolution, where the Monarchists sat on the right side of the corridor, and basically everyone else sat on the left.

As I said, when people use the term 'right-wing' nowadays, they are usually using it as a synonym for conservatism in general, or, in the US, as what they perceive the Republican party to be - but I think we can both agree that the Nazis were not in any way conservative, and had no political similarity to the US Republican party at all.

The Nazis were right-wing only in the original sense, as were the Monarchists.  The Nazis believed their racial group was naturally superior to others, just as Monarchists believed their family genetics were superior and entitled them to rule.

Indeed. The distinction between "right-wing" and "left-wing" has been open to debate for a long time.

Remember the Political Compass? They at least tried to differentiate between fiscal conservatism/liberalism and social conservatism/liberalism.

https://www.politicalcompass.org/

Anyone here remember Bitcoin? 

Yep. Still watching it go sideways.

Going sideways makes it easy to be distracted by other topics. 

[Bitmore]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XO6-nuk0UhA


And these are also educational as to the nature and history of Socialism in the Russian's own words and viewpoints;

- A great story of the Russian/Bulshevik REvolution;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RESCAwRKvck

-And the true nature of Socialism, forcing man to conform to the collective, this one is particularly depressing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKMnqd5Pp5U

[Bitmore]

I wasn't trying to define 'republican' - I was defining 'left-wing/right-wing'.

The term comes from the French legislature after the revolution, where the Monarchists sat on the right side of the corridor, and basically everyone else sat on the left.

As I said, when people use the term 'right-wing' nowadays, they are usually using it as a synonym for conservatism in general, or, in the US, as what they perceive the Republican party to be - but I think we can both agree that the Nazis were not in any way conservative, and had no political similarity to the US Republican party at all.

The Nazis were right-wing only in the original sense, as were the Monarchists.  The Nazis believed their racial group was naturally superior to others, just as Monarchists believed their family genetics were superior and entitled them to rule.

Indeed. The distinction between "right-wing" and "left-wing" has been open to debate for a long time.

Remember the Political Compass? They at least tried to differentiate between fiscal conservatism/liberalism and social conservatism/liberalism.

https://www.politicalcompass.org/

As I mentioned above, many define "left" and "right" in relation to the amount of freedom and individual rights and liberty they have, the extreme of that being anarchy on the right of the scale, - and totalitarianism on the left.  The Soviet Union and Red China, Cambodia, Cuba, and many more, including NAZI Germany and Fascist Italy, are examples of the left and the sacrifice of human rights for the sake of the people.

Now I also am not advocating anarchy, I am just point out another scale on which 'left and right' is determined.

[Elwar]

Shhh... Don't tell anyone but there are very few differences between fascism and socialism. The names of the people in power and positions of power may be different, but the structure is pretty much the same.

[Holliday]

Now I also am not advocating anarchy

I am. I don't think people need rulers in order to get along.

[Bitmore]

Now I also am not advocating anarchy

I am. I don't think people need rulers in order to get along.

I admire the idea, which requires a morality and respect for truth, but without the existence and enforcement of law individual rights would again be sacrificed to mobs, bullies, cartels, and bullies in general. 

Now I am a fan, so don't get me wrong.  I want the smallest government possible, in order to protect individual rights of individuals, and I see centralized ANYTHING as evil in outcome, but humans aren't ready for no laws and enforcement,,,yet.

[Elwar]

Now I also am not advocating anarchy

I am. I don't think people need rulers in order to get along.

[HI-TEC99]

Now I also am not advocating anarchy

I am. I don't think people need rulers in order to get along.

I admire the idea, which requires a morality and respect for truth, but without the existence and enforcement of law individual rights would again be sacrificed to mobs, bullies, cartels, and bullies in general.  

Now I am a fan, so don't get me wrong.  I want the smallest government possible, in order to protect individual rights of individuals, and I see centralized ANYTHING as evil in outcome, but humans aren't ready for no laws and enforcement,,,yet.

So do you want an an anarcho-syndicalist government where we take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week, where all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special biweekly meeting, by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs?

ARTHUR: Then who is your lord?

WOMAN: We don't have a lord.

ARTHUR: What?

DENNIS: I told you. We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week.

ARTHUR: Yes.

DENNIS: But all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special biweekly meeting.

ARTHUR: Yes, I see.

DENNIS: By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,--

ARTHUR: Be quiet!

DENNIS: --but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more--

ARTHUR: Be quiet! I order you to be quiet!

WOMAN: Order, eh -- who does he think he is?

ARTHUR: I am your king!

WOMAN: Well, I didn't vote for you.

ARTHUR: You don't vote for kings.

[JayJuanGee]

I don't care what "ism" you are talking about, anytime concerns about a conceptual group are placed above the concerns of actual individuals, it's going to be a bad time.

That is why out of all of the isms, nepotism, narcism and individualism are the best...       and, yeah, right libertarianism.. nutjobs who say let's get rid of all social and governmental systems for the sake of supposed individual freedom   

Ok, so we've established that Marine Le Pen's performance in the French polls could affect the price of Bitcoin, yes?  

Anyone here remember Bitcoin?  

Mooooon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Still seems to be regrouping with slight upwards price pressures, but not really enough upwards price pressures to lend any level of significant confidence in respect to an upwards breakout.

How should we describe our current price range?  It's unclear, but maybe $870 to $935  - and more lingering towards the upper ends of the range?  

So maybe breaking either above $950 or below $850 would be significant - and since we are closer towards $950, therefore, it is kind of seeming that the odds are a bit better to break in that upwards direction.. any thoughts to the contrary?

[K~Ehleyr]

I agree JJG.  I can't get away from the feeling that something big is coming, and it does look more likely that the breakout will be upwards.  I'm fuelled up 

[Bitmore]

Now I also am not advocating anarchy

I am. I don't think people need rulers in order to get along.

In principle I couldn't agree more, but we are dealing with humans here, and some 'authority' has to determine if, when and who those principles are being applied to. 
It assumes no evil doers. 
What happens when someone unjustly claims self defense? Someone has to enforce the principles, is my point.

[Bitmore]

I agree JJG.  I can't get away from the feeling that something big is coming, and it does look more likely that the breakout will be upwards.  I'm fuelled up 

I think something very big is going to happen.  Unfunded liabilities like SS, Medicaid, Medicare, and the shaky ground that a couple hundred TRILLION of $ of bank derivatives balance on... On the radio just today someone was claiming the EURO was going to collapse within 18 months.  Also several Euro-zone countries are either thinking of exiting, or possibly experiencing a economic collapse.  In addition, dozens of other countries are on the economic edge of collapse.  This could all fall apart quickly, Gold could be confiscated again, in==at which point Bitcoin is not going to the moon, but Mars.

Very bad, but not for those who invest in the financial lifeboat for value. 

Sad, but...

We will laugh as the world burns!

[mymenace]

Bitcoin is an example if Direct democracy

Direct democracy (also known as pure democracy) is a form of democracy in which people decide (e.g. vote on, form consensus on) policy initiatives directly


Banks did not choose the currency Bitcoin, Politicians did not choose the currency bitcoin, representatives of the people did not choose bitcoin and government did not choose bitcoin as a form of currency


Bitcoin was the will of the people choosing their own currency via Direct democracy


The great experiment, Bitcoin, that worked based on 10's of thousands of years of direct democracy in other communities

[600watt]

Good morning Bitcoinland.

Still flat sideways in $880-$930 range... currently $924 USD (Bitcoinaverage).

Maybe the weekend will bring some real movement.

Elwar,

since you just applied Goodwins law to this thread, in a way that is completely unrelated to wall observing BTC/USD tracking. I will just ask you to do us a favor.

Please, do not never ever breed.

You've gotta cut Elwar some slack. I think he's American.

Americans seem to have a different definition of "socialist" from the rest of the world. Due to media brainwashing and perhaps a less-than-optimal educational system, many Americans seem to think that socialists and fascists are the same, rather than being bitter enemies. They don't realize that fascism is a right-wing phenomenon while socialists are left-wing.

They tend to call "centralized government" what the rest of the world sees as civil infrastructure. They also like to think of a heavily incarcerated civilian population and government data-mining as "freedom" or "liberty".

 

you are right. in the u.s. the "socialist" part in the name of the NSDAP gets emphazised. there it is a well established thought that fascism and socialism are similar.

in germany no one thinks like that. it is a well shared general view here that those two ideologies were opposite to each other. and hey, we invented this fuck up, so we should know..    

socialists/communists and fascists were bitter enemies.

the socialist or liberal stuff like health insurance was invented in germany not by the socialists but by bismarck a very conservative guy who actually founded the Deutsche Reich in the 19th century. the fascists wanted to end workers rights, they outlawed unions, murdered union leaders.