Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[LUCKMCFLY]

Interactive information great chart, "Mayer 0.983"


Source: https://twitter.com/ChartsBtc/status/1182321677356560384

[rolling]

If your BTC are in a personal wallet, and a hard fork/airdrop occurs..  If you are unaware of it, and never download the new wallet... It will prolly come down to how understanding the IRS auditor is..  either you owe it, cuz you *could* get control if you downloaded the new wallet,  or you don't owe, cuz you obviously wouldn't download a wallet for something you were completely unaware of...

I think this makes sense. What if there was some Bitcoin Gold, Bitcoin Green, Bitcoin Purple, Bitcoin Silver, Bitcoin Platinum, Bitcoin Diamond, Bitcoin Whatever ...

And you never downloaded the wallet, so the fork coins actually never moved ... when they do decide to tax you, the value of the coins at today's rates should apply, otherwise you can just say, I'll pay you in the forked coins ... What is your Bitcoin Whatever address, I'll send the tax owed on it.

That would make more sense.

But then, I don't know if the IRS will interpret it that way. They can't tax you what it was worth yesterday, when you are paying them today. As any gains or losses were unrealized.

Sure they can and they will. It doesn't matter if you sell them. When you sell them, that's a separate taxable event which would probably be a loss if the value dropped since the coin was created.

If you had access to those coins and were aware of those coins, that is 100% taxable based on the value when they were created or when you had access to them, whether you accessed them or not.

In an audit, it would be hard to argue you didn't know about it or didn't have access to the coins, if they can show you as a prominent member of the bitcoin community and you had the expertise to access the coins.

Selling them today or paying the IRS has nothing to do with the gain realized when the coins were created. If you do sell them at a later date, that is another taxable event.

[xhomerx10]

Willy Woo on Twitter

https://twitter.com/woonomic/status/1182270170322092038

Can someone explain me that please ?

 It's a simple ratio of Bitcoin's market cap over the daily transaction volume in USD I believe.

 edit: It's not quite as simple any more - you must also divide the result by the 90MA

[Searing]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2019/10/09/irs-issues-new-guidance-on-the-tax-treatment-of-cryptocurrency/#4f7b79d459e5

Looks like they want to treat the hardforks and airdrops now as taxable income events. Hopefully someone can explain how that isn't the case. All I need is to worry about now is keeping track of the 50 shitcoin hardforks and airdrops that get created everyday. That makes no sense so I assume I am wrong somehow.

No you're right. But you don't have to worry about it. It's rather a good news in fact, I hope it will be enforced heavily.

The idea is that you can be taxed ONLY if you sell the result of the fork. If there is a fork and you don't do anything with the coins then nothing is taxable.

How is it a good news? Well it decreases the incentive of a fork. Because tons of people won't get the new coins, knowing they will be taxed.

Hence less shitcoins and less forks.

That's incorrect. If you receive airdropped/forked coins, you're responsible for reporting that as income. Period.
The only loophole is that you're not responsible if you can't actually claim the coins, or have no control over them. An example of that would be if your exchange doesn't distribute the forked coins to you.

If that is true. Every Whale will dump (in the USA) rather than take a chance for another hostile fork of bitcoin and owing $50k to such or something because he did not dump.

I mean that means NO one could afford to HODL BTC in your own wallet due to malicious actors. Indeed north korea or Iran could 'fork' your coin for just that purpose. chaos.

[VB1001]

Willy Woo on Twitter

https://twitter.com/woonomic/status/1182270170322092038

Can someone explain me that please ?

When did Bitcoin's investment era begin? A study using NVT.
https://woobull.com/bitcoins-early-investment-era-under-nvt-ratio/

Bitcoin NVT Ratio
https://charts.woobull.com/bitcoin-nvt-ratio/

[Oxstone]

The BTC price is holding at a steady $8,400 range. With the release of bakkt we should be seeing 10k within a week or 2. I believe another bull run is coming. I would only sell partial bags and hold the rest long term.  Remember BTC price cannot crash if noone sells! If noone sells the price HAS to go up!

Sorry to say that... But it is completely wrong.
Miners produce. They have to pay their bills. They have to sell.

It's not a question of choice, in the BTC ecosystem there MUST be sellers. There will always be.

The only question is: is there more sellers or buyers?

I'm bearish until the end of October.

Bearish in a bull market.  Go figure.

the 1d chart is clearly bearish. I don't see the bull for now though they are clearly gaining strength

[VB1001]

MempoolObserver

Bitcoin Transaction Monitor

Whenever you, an exchange or somebody else sends a Bitcoin transaction, it gets broadcasted to all nodes in the Bitcoin network. Each broadcast transaction is represented by a dot on the scatterplot below. The transactions are arranged on the x-axis by the time of arrival at my Bitcoin node. The y-axis represents the feerate (fee per size) the transaction pays.

The plot reveals activity patters of wallets, exchanges and users transacting on the Bitcoin network. Some patterns are only visible on certain days or at certain times. To reduce the noise you can apply filters, set the dot radius and highlight transactions based on their properties. Additionally feerate estimates from various sources can be overlayed. Hovering over a transaction reveals more information about that transaction, and clicking opens a new tab with the transaction in a blockchain explorer.

https://mempool.observer/monitor/

You can interact in the graph, this is fine.

[El duderino_]

For that matter, maybe I need to start deleting more of the "Fuck You" and trolling posts. We can't have Fatman flooding the mods with reports 

You're a mod, smartass. And you know that's not the case.

You think infofront is a mod? That's rich.

 He obviously doesn't care enough to read the thread before posting which is why he is consistently wrong about the thread and the members who frequent it.

Indeed, cause if he would have done that.... He would have show much more respect if he would have

[VB1001]

The hammer is ready?

[rolling]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2019/10/09/irs-issues-new-guidance-on-the-tax-treatment-of-cryptocurrency/#4f7b79d459e5

Looks like they want to treat the hardforks and airdrops now as taxable income events. Hopefully someone can explain how that isn't the case. All I need is to worry about now is keeping track of the 50 shitcoin hardforks and airdrops that get created everyday. That makes no sense so I assume I am wrong somehow.

No you're right. But you don't have to worry about it. It's rather a good news in fact, I hope it will be enforced heavily.

The idea is that you can be taxed ONLY if you sell the result of the fork. If there is a fork and you don't do anything with the coins then nothing is taxable.

How is it a good news? Well it decreases the incentive of a fork. Because tons of people won't get the new coins, knowing they will be taxed.

Hence less shitcoins and less forks.

That's incorrect. If you receive airdropped/forked coins, you're responsible for reporting that as income. Period.
The only loophole is that you're not responsible if you can't actually claim the coins, or have no control over them. An example of that would be if your exchange doesn't distribute the forked coins to you.

If that is true. Every Whale will dump (in the USA) rather than take a chance for another hostile fork of bitcoin and owing $50k to such or something because he did not dump.

I mean that means NO one could afford to HODL BTC in your own wallet due to malicious actors. Indeed north korea or Iran could 'fork' your coin for just that purpose. chaos.

It is true. This only applies to people subject to US taxation (citizens and residents) and it doesn't matter where they dump the coins.

Yes, you owe the tax whether you sell or not. It is the same for U.S. stocks when a company goes public, original employees of the company are often given stock in the public company and they owe tax on the value of the stock on the day the company goes public whether they sell or not. This normally means they have to sell some of the stock to pay the taxes due.

The good news is that losses offset gains so if a coin is worth $100 the day it was created but you sell at $1, you can claim a loss of $99 per coin when you sell as long as you claimed the gain when the coin was created as well.

Next time you vote, vote for someone who understands bitcoin or at least someone who wants to reform the IRS.

[Fatman3001]

For that matter, maybe I need to start deleting more of the "Fuck You" and trolling posts. We can't have Fatman flooding the mods with reports 

You're a mod, smartass. And you know that's not the case.

You think infofront is a mod? That's rich.

 He obviously doesn't care enough to read the thread before posting which is why he is consistently wrong about the thread and the members who frequent it.

Are you saying that this thread was taken over by some random guy?

I thought he was busy moderating other threads.

How the H did you people find someone even lazier than Adam?

[d_eddie]

Are you saying that this thread was taken over by some random guy?

I thought he was busy moderating other threads.

How the H did you people find someone even lazier than Adam?

Fatman, you probably deserve all the greetings you got.

[Searing]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2019/10/09/irs-issues-new-guidance-on-the-tax-treatment-of-cryptocurrency/#4f7b79d459e5

Looks like they want to treat the hardforks and airdrops now as taxable income events. Hopefully someone can explain how that isn't the case. All I need is to worry about now is keeping track of the 50 shitcoin hardforks and airdrops that get created everyday. That makes no sense so I assume I am wrong somehow.

No you're right. But you don't have to worry about it. It's rather a good news in fact, I hope it will be enforced heavily.

The idea is that you can be taxed ONLY if you sell the result of the fork. If there is a fork and you don't do anything with the coins then nothing is taxable.

How is it a good news? Well it decreases the incentive of a fork. Because tons of people won't get the new coins, knowing they will be taxed.

Hence less shitcoins and less forks.

That's incorrect. If you receive airdropped/forked coins, you're responsible for reporting that as income. Period.
The only loophole is that you're not responsible if you can't actually claim the coins, or have no control over them. An example of that would be if your exchange doesn't distribute the forked coins to you.

If that is true. Every Whale will dump (in the USA) rather than take a chance for another hostile fork of bitcoin and owing $50k to such or something because he did not dump.

I mean that means NO one could afford to HODL BTC in your own wallet due to malicious actors. Indeed north korea or Iran could 'fork' your coin for just that purpose. chaos.

It is true. This only applies to people subject to US taxation (citizens and residents) and it doesn't matter where they dump the coins.

Yes, you owe the tax whether you sell or not. It is the same for U.S. stocks when a company goes public, original owners of the company are given stock in the public company and they owe tax on the value of the stock on the day the company goes public. This normally means they have to sell some of the stock to pay the taxes due.

The good news is that losses offset gains so if a coin is worth $100 the day it was created but you sell at $1, you can claim a loss of $99 per coin when you sell as long as you claimed the gain when the coin was created as well.

Next time you vote, vote for someone who understands bitcoin or at least someone who wants to reform the IRS.

So, basically, just ignore it? If the price goes up big time as a fork...I'd assume enough hell would be raised that a 'clarification' would be needed by the IRS. If not and it is piddly

no clarification will be needed and a big 'meh!". If the alternative is to keep my BTC Hoard HODL on Coinbase complete because exchanges are legit in that I don't control the keys,

Sh*t, I and most others will dump it all for cash first before putting up with that

and just take the $$$ via Coinbase or whatever. So for now, unless things change in the next week, I'm just gonna assume it is "unworkable" and/or if not that ANY fork of Bitcoin

will not go anywhere in price enough due to the above to matter. I wonder if the BTC foundation (Bitcoin Core) or others could simply 'ban' hard forks of any note  in some manner

and inform IRS that it is no longer legit and get exchanges to go along with such. I guess that could work maybe.

Whatever, ignoring for now.

Brad


On the other hand from what I can tell from this 'control' means I take the dropped coin and control the forked coins via a wallet. Thus I don't split the coin/wallet
no tax on the fork in that I have no control did not move such.

so gonna go with this idea for now

https://www.natlawreview.com/article/irs-issues-new-cryptocurrency-guidance

[El duderino_]

For that matter, maybe I need to start deleting more of the "Fuck You" and trolling posts. We can't have Fatman flooding the mods with reports 

You're a mod, smartass. And you know that's not the case.

You think infofront is a mod? That's rich.

 He obviously doesn't care enough to read the thread before posting which is why he is consistently wrong about the thread and the members who frequent it.

Are you saying that this thread was taken over by some random guy?

I thought he was busy moderating other threads.

How the H did you people find someone even lazier than Adam?

There is no better man for the job

[HI-TEC99]

It is true. This only applies to people subject to US taxation (citizens and residents) and it doesn't matter where they dump the coins.

Yes, you owe the tax whether you sell or not. It is the same for U.S. stocks when a company goes public, original employees of the company are often given stock in the public company and they owe tax on the value of the stock on the day the company goes public whether they sell or not. This normally means they have to sell some of the stock to pay the taxes due.

What if a fork isn't on an exchange on the day it's created? Does that mean it is treated as zero value? Most Bitcoin forks struggle to get on an exchange within weeks of their creation. Some never even get on an exchange.

[rolling]

It is true. This only applies to people subject to US taxation (citizens and residents) and it doesn't matter where they dump the coins.

Yes, you owe the tax whether you sell or not. It is the same for U.S. stocks when a company goes public, original employees of the company are often given stock in the public company and they owe tax on the value of the stock on the day the company goes public whether they sell or not. This normally means they have to sell some of the stock to pay the taxes due.

What if a fork isn't on an exchange on the day it's created? Does that mean it is treated as zero value? Most Bitcoin forks struggle to get on an exchange within weeks of their creation. Some never even get on an exchange.

This is from their FAQ:

"When you receive cryptocurrency from an airdrop following a hard fork, you will have ordinary income equal to the fair market value of the new cryptocurrency when it is received, which is when the transaction is recorded on the distributed ledger, provided you have dominion and control over the cryptocurrency so that you can transfer, sell, exchange, or otherwise dispose of the cryptocurrency."

https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/frequently-asked-questions-on-virtual-currency-transactions

I guess you would have to have a good justification for showing what the fair market value was even if it wasn't on an exchange such as any trading activity you could find on this board or elsewhere.

[siggy_77]

It is true. This only applies to people subject to US taxation (citizens and residents) and it doesn't matter where they dump the coins.

Yes, you owe the tax whether you sell or not. It is the same for U.S. stocks when a company goes public, original employees of the company are often given stock in the public company and they owe tax on the value of the stock on the day the company goes public whether they sell or not. This normally means they have to sell some of the stock to pay the taxes due.

What if a fork isn't on an exchange on the day it's created? Does that mean it is treated as zero value? Most Bitcoin forks struggle to get on an exchange within weeks of their creation. Some never even get on an exchange.

This is from their FAQ:

"When you receive cryptocurrency from an airdrop following a hard fork, you will have ordinary income equal to the fair market value of the new cryptocurrency when it is received, which is when the transaction is recorded on the distributed ledger, provided you have dominion and control over the cryptocurrency so that you can transfer, sell, exchange, or otherwise dispose of the cryptocurrency."

https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/frequently-asked-questions-on-virtual-currency-transactions

I guess you would have to have a good justification for showing what the fair market value was even if it wasn't on an exchange such as any trading activity you could find on this board or elsewhere.

Again, I'm not a tax lawyer.. but in relation to coins on an exchange, I take "when it is received" to mean that you gain control at the time the coins are credited to your account on the exchange, and you should pay income for fair market value at that time....   At least to me that would be a good faith effort that would prolly be kosher with the IRS.   The "provided you have dominion yada yada yada" part kind or precludes getting taxed at the moment of creation if the exchange drags its feet by a couple weeks.. as you specifically DO NOT have dominion over the new coins till the exchange posts them to your account.

[Gyrsur]

f**k yeah! I'm struggling with IPv6 #lastofthev8sstyle

[rolling]

It is true. This only applies to people subject to US taxation (citizens and residents) and it doesn't matter where they dump the coins.

Yes, you owe the tax whether you sell or not. It is the same for U.S. stocks when a company goes public, original employees of the company are often given stock in the public company and they owe tax on the value of the stock on the day the company goes public whether they sell or not. This normally means they have to sell some of the stock to pay the taxes due.

What if a fork isn't on an exchange on the day it's created? Does that mean it is treated as zero value? Most Bitcoin forks struggle to get on an exchange within weeks of their creation. Some never even get on an exchange.

This is from their FAQ:

"When you receive cryptocurrency from an airdrop following a hard fork, you will have ordinary income equal to the fair market value of the new cryptocurrency when it is received, which is when the transaction is recorded on the distributed ledger, provided you have dominion and control over the cryptocurrency so that you can transfer, sell, exchange, or otherwise dispose of the cryptocurrency."

https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/frequently-asked-questions-on-virtual-currency-transactions

I guess you would have to have a good justification for showing what the fair market value was even if it wasn't on an exchange such as any trading activity you could find on this board or elsewhere.

Again, I'm not a tax lawyer.. but in relation to coins on an exchange, I take "when it is received" to mean that you gain control at the time the coins are credited to your account on the exchange, and you should pay income for fair market value at that time....   At least to me that would be a good faith effort that would prolly be kosher with the IRS.   The "provided you have dominion yada yada yada" part kind or precludes getting taxed at the moment of creation if the exchange drags its feet by a couple weeks.. as you specifically DO NOT have dominion over the new coins till the exchange posts them to your account.

You're right. They specifically address if the fork coins are on an exchange, then it is taxable when the exchange distributes them. The problem is only if you hold the keys to the forked coins.

[Dabs]

In an audit, it would be hard to argue you didn't know about it or didn't have access to the coins, if they can show you as a prominent member of the bitcoin community and you had the expertise to access the coins.

That's messed up. Good thing I'm not under audit, and they can't show me as a prominent member of the bitcoin community. (But Bitcoin.com is the prominent community because they have the dot com domain name right? I'm not there at all.) Or that they could prove I had the expertise to access the coins.

That sucks for everyone else who is an expert.

As far as my country is concerned, I don't deal with bitcoin or crypto at all. I know as much as anyone else around these parts.

I understand, some of you guys have to pay taxes, so ... good luck with that.

"When you receive cryptocurrency from an airdrop following a hard fork, you will have ordinary income equal to the fair market value of the new cryptocurrency when it is received, which is when the transaction is recorded on the distributed ledger, provided you have dominion and control over the cryptocurrency so that you can transfer, sell, exchange, or otherwise dispose of the cryptocurrency."

So, the value would be zero, if it's not listed on any exchange at the time of a fork, and it's not even listed on sites like coinmarketcap. No value = zero.

I mean, maybe 10,000 of that fork can buy a pizza, but if no merchant accepts it as payment, on the day of the fork, then it's not even worth a pizza.


On the other hands, really, guys, don't store your coins on an exchange, unless you were actually intending to trade or receive fork coins that way. That would also mean, the exchange knows you had an account with them and can use whatever reporting tools are accurate at the time with that exchange, if they are tax compliant and all that. Which means, shady exchanges that didn't do any KYC on you don't have your info anyway, so you can forget about them.