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Question: What happens first:
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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26365885 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 3 users with 9 merit deleted.)
VB1001
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October 10, 2019, 04:25:58 PM

Willy Woo on Twitter

https://twitter.com/woonomic/status/1182270170322092038

Can someone explain me that please ?

When did Bitcoin's investment era begin? A study using NVT.
https://woobull.com/bitcoins-early-investment-era-under-nvt-ratio/

Bitcoin NVT Ratio
https://charts.woobull.com/bitcoin-nvt-ratio/
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Oxstone
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October 10, 2019, 04:28:01 PM

The BTC price is holding at a steady $8,400 range. With the release of bakkt we should be seeing 10k within a week or 2. I believe another bull run is coming. I would only sell partial bags and hold the rest long term.  Remember BTC price cannot crash if noone sells! If noone sells the price HAS to go up!

Sorry to say that... But it is completely wrong.
Miners produce. They have to pay their bills. They have to sell.

It's not a question of choice, in the BTC ecosystem there MUST be sellers. There will always be.

The only question is: is there more sellers or buyers?

I'm bearish until the end of October.

Bearish in a bull market.  Go figure.
the 1d chart is clearly bearish. I don't see the bull for now though they are clearly gaining strength Smiley
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October 10, 2019, 04:29:03 PM



MempoolObserver Wink

Bitcoin Transaction Monitor

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Whenever you, an exchange or somebody else sends a Bitcoin transaction, it gets broadcasted to all nodes in the Bitcoin network. Each broadcast transaction is represented by a dot on the scatterplot below. The transactions are arranged on the x-axis by the time of arrival at my Bitcoin node. The y-axis represents the feerate (fee per size) the transaction pays.

The plot reveals activity patters of wallets, exchanges and users transacting on the Bitcoin network. Some patterns are only visible on certain days or at certain times. To reduce the noise you can apply filters, set the dot radius and highlight transactions based on their properties. Additionally feerate estimates from various sources can be overlayed. Hovering over a transaction reveals more information about that transaction, and clicking opens a new tab with the transaction in a blockchain explorer.

https://mempool.observer/monitor/

You can interact in the graph, this is fine.
El duderino_
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October 10, 2019, 04:30:00 PM

For that matter, maybe I need to start deleting more of the "Fuck You" and trolling posts. We can't have Fatman flooding the mods with reports  Roll Eyes

You're a mod, smartass. And you know that's not the case.

You think infofront is a mod? That's rich.

 He obviously doesn't care enough to read the thread before posting which is why he is consistently wrong about the thread and the members who frequent it.

Indeed, cause if he would have done that.... He would have show much more respect if he would have
VB1001
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October 10, 2019, 04:37:22 PM



The hammer is ready? Cool
rolling
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October 10, 2019, 04:40:49 PM
Merited by infofront (1)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2019/10/09/irs-issues-new-guidance-on-the-tax-treatment-of-cryptocurrency/#4f7b79d459e5

Looks like they want to treat the hardforks and airdrops now as taxable income events. Hopefully someone can explain how that isn't the case. All I need is to worry about now is keeping track of the 50 shitcoin hardforks and airdrops that get created everyday. That makes no sense so I assume I am wrong somehow.

No you're right. But you don't have to worry about it. It's rather a good news in fact, I hope it will be enforced heavily.

The idea is that you can be taxed ONLY if you sell the result of the fork. If there is a fork and you don't do anything with the coins then nothing is taxable.

How is it a good news? Well it decreases the incentive of a fork. Because tons of people won't get the new coins, knowing they will be taxed.

Hence less shitcoins and less forks.

That's incorrect. If you receive airdropped/forked coins, you're responsible for reporting that as income. Period.
The only loophole is that you're not responsible if you can't actually claim the coins, or have no control over them. An example of that would be if your exchange doesn't distribute the forked coins to you.

If that is true. Every Whale will dump (in the USA) rather than take a chance for another hostile fork of bitcoin and owing $50k to such or something because he did not dump.

I mean that means NO one could afford to HODL BTC in your own wallet due to malicious actors. Indeed north korea or Iran could 'fork' your coin for just that purpose. chaos.



It is true. This only applies to people subject to US taxation (citizens and residents) and it doesn't matter where they dump the coins.

Yes, you owe the tax whether you sell or not. It is the same for U.S. stocks when a company goes public, original employees of the company are often given stock in the public company and they owe tax on the value of the stock on the day the company goes public whether they sell or not. This normally means they have to sell some of the stock to pay the taxes due.

The good news is that losses offset gains so if a coin is worth $100 the day it was created but you sell at $1, you can claim a loss of $99 per coin when you sell as long as you claimed the gain when the coin was created as well.

Next time you vote, vote for someone who understands bitcoin or at least someone who wants to reform the IRS.
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October 10, 2019, 04:43:26 PM

For that matter, maybe I need to start deleting more of the "Fuck You" and trolling posts. We can't have Fatman flooding the mods with reports  Roll Eyes

You're a mod, smartass. And you know that's not the case.

You think infofront is a mod? That's rich.

 He obviously doesn't care enough to read the thread before posting which is why he is consistently wrong about the thread and the members who frequent it.

Are you saying that this thread was taken over by some random guy?

I thought he was busy moderating other threads.

How the H did you people find someone even lazier than Adam?


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October 10, 2019, 04:46:36 PM

Are you saying that this thread was taken over by some random guy?

I thought he was busy moderating other threads.

How the H did you people find someone even lazier than Adam?

Fatman, you probably deserve all the greetings you got.
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October 10, 2019, 04:47:04 PM

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2019/10/09/irs-issues-new-guidance-on-the-tax-treatment-of-cryptocurrency/#4f7b79d459e5

Looks like they want to treat the hardforks and airdrops now as taxable income events. Hopefully someone can explain how that isn't the case. All I need is to worry about now is keeping track of the 50 shitcoin hardforks and airdrops that get created everyday. That makes no sense so I assume I am wrong somehow.

No you're right. But you don't have to worry about it. It's rather a good news in fact, I hope it will be enforced heavily.

The idea is that you can be taxed ONLY if you sell the result of the fork. If there is a fork and you don't do anything with the coins then nothing is taxable.

How is it a good news? Well it decreases the incentive of a fork. Because tons of people won't get the new coins, knowing they will be taxed.

Hence less shitcoins and less forks.

That's incorrect. If you receive airdropped/forked coins, you're responsible for reporting that as income. Period.
The only loophole is that you're not responsible if you can't actually claim the coins, or have no control over them. An example of that would be if your exchange doesn't distribute the forked coins to you.

If that is true. Every Whale will dump (in the USA) rather than take a chance for another hostile fork of bitcoin and owing $50k to such or something because he did not dump.

I mean that means NO one could afford to HODL BTC in your own wallet due to malicious actors. Indeed north korea or Iran could 'fork' your coin for just that purpose. chaos.



It is true. This only applies to people subject to US taxation (citizens and residents) and it doesn't matter where they dump the coins.

Yes, you owe the tax whether you sell or not. It is the same for U.S. stocks when a company goes public, original owners of the company are given stock in the public company and they owe tax on the value of the stock on the day the company goes public. This normally means they have to sell some of the stock to pay the taxes due.

The good news is that losses offset gains so if a coin is worth $100 the day it was created but you sell at $1, you can claim a loss of $99 per coin when you sell as long as you claimed the gain when the coin was created as well.

Next time you vote, vote for someone who understands bitcoin or at least someone who wants to reform the IRS.


So, basically, just ignore it? If the price goes up big time as a fork...I'd assume enough hell would be raised that a 'clarification' would be needed by the IRS. If not and it is piddly

no clarification will be needed and a big 'meh!". If the alternative is to keep my BTC Hoard HODL on Coinbase complete because exchanges are legit in that I don't control the keys,

Sh*t, I and most others will dump it all for cash first before putting up with that

and just take the $$$ via Coinbase or whatever. So for now, unless things change in the next week, I'm just gonna assume it is "unworkable" and/or if not that ANY fork of Bitcoin

will not go anywhere in price enough due to the above to matter. I wonder if the BTC foundation (Bitcoin Core) or others could simply 'ban' hard forks of any note  in some manner

and inform IRS that it is no longer legit and get exchanges to go along with such. I guess that could work maybe.

Whatever, ignoring for now.

Brad


On the other hand from what I can tell from this 'control' means I take the dropped coin and control the forked coins via a wallet. Thus I don't split the coin/wallet
no tax on the fork in that I have no control did not move such.

so gonna go with this idea for now

https://www.natlawreview.com/article/irs-issues-new-cryptocurrency-guidance

El duderino_
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October 10, 2019, 04:55:08 PM

For that matter, maybe I need to start deleting more of the "Fuck You" and trolling posts. We can't have Fatman flooding the mods with reports  Roll Eyes

You're a mod, smartass. And you know that's not the case.

You think infofront is a mod? That's rich.

 He obviously doesn't care enough to read the thread before posting which is why he is consistently wrong about the thread and the members who frequent it.

Are you saying that this thread was taken over by some random guy?

I thought he was busy moderating other threads.

How the H did you people find someone even lazier than Adam?




There is no better man for the job
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October 10, 2019, 04:57:29 PM


It is true. This only applies to people subject to US taxation (citizens and residents) and it doesn't matter where they dump the coins.

Yes, you owe the tax whether you sell or not. It is the same for U.S. stocks when a company goes public, original employees of the company are often given stock in the public company and they owe tax on the value of the stock on the day the company goes public whether they sell or not. This normally means they have to sell some of the stock to pay the taxes due.


What if a fork isn't on an exchange on the day it's created? Does that mean it is treated as zero value? Most Bitcoin forks struggle to get on an exchange within weeks of their creation. Some never even get on an exchange.
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October 10, 2019, 05:13:55 PM


It is true. This only applies to people subject to US taxation (citizens and residents) and it doesn't matter where they dump the coins.

Yes, you owe the tax whether you sell or not. It is the same for U.S. stocks when a company goes public, original employees of the company are often given stock in the public company and they owe tax on the value of the stock on the day the company goes public whether they sell or not. This normally means they have to sell some of the stock to pay the taxes due.


What if a fork isn't on an exchange on the day it's created? Does that mean it is treated as zero value? Most Bitcoin forks struggle to get on an exchange within weeks of their creation. Some never even get on an exchange.

This is from their FAQ:

"When you receive cryptocurrency from an airdrop following a hard fork, you will have ordinary income equal to the fair market value of the new cryptocurrency when it is received, which is when the transaction is recorded on the distributed ledger, provided you have dominion and control over the cryptocurrency so that you can transfer, sell, exchange, or otherwise dispose of the cryptocurrency."

https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/frequently-asked-questions-on-virtual-currency-transactions

I guess you would have to have a good justification for showing what the fair market value was even if it wasn't on an exchange such as any trading activity you could find on this board or elsewhere.
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October 10, 2019, 05:22:30 PM


It is true. This only applies to people subject to US taxation (citizens and residents) and it doesn't matter where they dump the coins.

Yes, you owe the tax whether you sell or not. It is the same for U.S. stocks when a company goes public, original employees of the company are often given stock in the public company and they owe tax on the value of the stock on the day the company goes public whether they sell or not. This normally means they have to sell some of the stock to pay the taxes due.


What if a fork isn't on an exchange on the day it's created? Does that mean it is treated as zero value? Most Bitcoin forks struggle to get on an exchange within weeks of their creation. Some never even get on an exchange.

This is from their FAQ:

"When you receive cryptocurrency from an airdrop following a hard fork, you will have ordinary income equal to the fair market value of the new cryptocurrency when it is received, which is when the transaction is recorded on the distributed ledger, provided you have dominion and control over the cryptocurrency so that you can transfer, sell, exchange, or otherwise dispose of the cryptocurrency."

https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/frequently-asked-questions-on-virtual-currency-transactions

I guess you would have to have a good justification for showing what the fair market value was even if it wasn't on an exchange such as any trading activity you could find on this board or elsewhere.

Again, I'm not a tax lawyer.. but in relation to coins on an exchange, I take "when it is received" to mean that you gain control at the time the coins are credited to your account on the exchange, and you should pay income for fair market value at that time....   At least to me that would be a good faith effort that would prolly be kosher with the IRS.   The "provided you have dominion yada yada yada" part kind or precludes getting taxed at the moment of creation if the exchange drags its feet by a couple weeks.. as you specifically DO NOT have dominion over the new coins till the exchange posts them to your account.
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October 10, 2019, 05:26:30 PM
Last edit: October 10, 2019, 05:38:53 PM by Gyrsur

f**k yeah! I'm struggling with IPv6 #lastofthev8sstyle
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October 10, 2019, 05:27:11 PM


It is true. This only applies to people subject to US taxation (citizens and residents) and it doesn't matter where they dump the coins.

Yes, you owe the tax whether you sell or not. It is the same for U.S. stocks when a company goes public, original employees of the company are often given stock in the public company and they owe tax on the value of the stock on the day the company goes public whether they sell or not. This normally means they have to sell some of the stock to pay the taxes due.


What if a fork isn't on an exchange on the day it's created? Does that mean it is treated as zero value? Most Bitcoin forks struggle to get on an exchange within weeks of their creation. Some never even get on an exchange.

This is from their FAQ:

"When you receive cryptocurrency from an airdrop following a hard fork, you will have ordinary income equal to the fair market value of the new cryptocurrency when it is received, which is when the transaction is recorded on the distributed ledger, provided you have dominion and control over the cryptocurrency so that you can transfer, sell, exchange, or otherwise dispose of the cryptocurrency."

https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/frequently-asked-questions-on-virtual-currency-transactions

I guess you would have to have a good justification for showing what the fair market value was even if it wasn't on an exchange such as any trading activity you could find on this board or elsewhere.

Again, I'm not a tax lawyer.. but in relation to coins on an exchange, I take "when it is received" to mean that you gain control at the time the coins are credited to your account on the exchange, and you should pay income for fair market value at that time....   At least to me that would be a good faith effort that would prolly be kosher with the IRS.   The "provided you have dominion yada yada yada" part kind or precludes getting taxed at the moment of creation if the exchange drags its feet by a couple weeks.. as you specifically DO NOT have dominion over the new coins till the exchange posts them to your account.

You're right. They specifically address if the fork coins are on an exchange, then it is taxable when the exchange distributes them. The problem is only if you hold the keys to the forked coins.
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October 10, 2019, 05:34:28 PM

In an audit, it would be hard to argue you didn't know about it or didn't have access to the coins, if they can show you as a prominent member of the bitcoin community and you had the expertise to access the coins.

That's messed up. Good thing I'm not under audit, and they can't show me as a prominent member of the bitcoin community. (But Bitcoin.com is the prominent community because they have the dot com domain name right? I'm not there at all.) Or that they could prove I had the expertise to access the coins.

That sucks for everyone else who is an expert.

As far as my country is concerned, I don't deal with bitcoin or crypto at all. I know as much as anyone else around these parts.

I understand, some of you guys have to pay taxes, so ... good luck with that.


Quote
"When you receive cryptocurrency from an airdrop following a hard fork, you will have ordinary income equal to the fair market value of the new cryptocurrency when it is received, which is when the transaction is recorded on the distributed ledger, provided you have dominion and control over the cryptocurrency so that you can transfer, sell, exchange, or otherwise dispose of the cryptocurrency."

So, the value would be zero, if it's not listed on any exchange at the time of a fork, and it's not even listed on sites like coinmarketcap. No value = zero.

I mean, maybe 10,000 of that fork can buy a pizza, but if no merchant accepts it as payment, on the day of the fork, then it's not even worth a pizza.


On the other hands, really, guys, don't store your coins on an exchange, unless you were actually intending to trade or receive fork coins that way. That would also mean, the exchange knows you had an account with them and can use whatever reporting tools are accurate at the time with that exchange, if they are tax compliant and all that. Which means, shady exchanges that didn't do any KYC on you don't have your info anyway, so you can forget about them.
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October 10, 2019, 05:40:59 PM

Master Eddie how is your short doing? still hedged with low spread?

f**k me!

#nohomo
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October 10, 2019, 05:48:18 PM

Quote
"When you receive cryptocurrency from an airdrop following a hard fork, you will have ordinary income equal to the fair market value of the new cryptocurrency when it is received, which is when the transaction is recorded on the distributed ledger, provided you have dominion and control over the cryptocurrency so that you can transfer, sell, exchange, or otherwise dispose of the cryptocurrency."

Quote
So, the value would be zero, if it's not listed on any exchange at the time of a fork, and it's not even listed on sites like coinmarketcap. No value = zero.

I mean, maybe 10,000 of that fork can buy a pizza, but if no merchant accepts it as payment, on the day of the fork, then it's not even worth a pizza.

I think it would be harder to prove the value was zero than to prove it was something greater than zero. It can't default to zero. Zero is a number that must be supported as well. There is always someone doing OTC trades or an exchange somewhere doing futures.

If it turns out the coin can't be sold or transferred when you get around to it, or if you transfer to someone else for a few pennies, that could be a loss to offset the gain as long as you can justify the value. If you give them to someone though, that could be considered a gift and you couldn't claim a loss.
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October 10, 2019, 05:55:36 PM


Phats, halloween masks, santa hats, Bitcoins all the same.
The economics in that game thought me a lot more than teachers in high school.
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October 10, 2019, 05:56:58 PM

ETF decision (drum roll) REJECT rule change     Cry   https://www.sec.gov/rules/sro/nysearca.htm

Also, that 95% can't be separated from the real 5% in a reliable way that prevents the fake/unregulated/manipulated exchanges from affecting the price of the real exchanges.  

What could not be done yesterday can be done tomorrow.   I see a lot of efforts by many to find real volume. But most exchanges of course dont want to participate in it since higher volume makes them more appealing to attract the real traders.
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