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Question: Did we reach the bottom already?
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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 25871793 times)
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JayJuanGee
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ESG, KYC & AML are attack vectors on Bitcoin


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September 21, 2019, 06:25:06 PM

Quote
Previewing the debut of trading in daily and monthly physically-delivered Bitcoin on Monday,
@FortuneMagazine
 offers a glimpse of what’s to come
https://twitter.com/Bakkt/status/1175094597355282433

Will the Bakkt Launch Help Bitcoin Go Mainstream?

Quote
On September 22, a product designed to remake Bitcoin as a mainstream investment for the world's investment managers will go live. When ICE Futures U.S., one of the world's largest commodities markets, opens trading at 8 p.m. ET that day, it will offer Bakkt Daily and Monthly Bitcoin Futures, the first physically delivered crypto-currency contracts ever traded on a federally regulated exchange.

https://fortune.com/2019/09/20/bitcoin-futures-bakkt-launch/

This is coming.


https://i.imgur.com/kQ2Rca8.jpg
Well, allow me to be extremely sceptical of wheter this will be positive for BTC. Probably yes at first, but long term no. It will first try to suppress volatility, later become a tool for outright manipulation. Just like what happens with gold.

Bitcoin is not gold - even though you are likely correct that there are going to be plenty of attempts to manipulate bitcoin in the same kinds of way.  A relevant and material question remains about whether there is going to be the same or similar levels of success in manipulating bitcoin as there has been with Gold.  I would not assume the latter before it has had a sufficient and reasonable opportunity to play out and to be sufficiently and adequately tested.    Let's see... let's see.

By the way, Ludwig Von, let's assume that you are correct about the ultimate manipulation success of various traditional financial tools to adequately and meaningfully manipulate BTC into a kind of meaningless oblivion:   how long do you believe that such meaningful manipulation is going to play out before it achieves success?  2 years?  5 years? 10 years?  20 years?  Can we still benefit by being in BTC in the meantime while we are monitoring the level of meaningful manipulation of BTC and whether it will actually play out?

In other words, my questions are still implying a BIG so what to your hypothetical because we should not assume the second part and even if the second part will play out, as you suggested, we have time to still both benefit from the shorter term and to be able to get out of BTC if we recognize some actual meaningful interference with bitcoin's actual use case(s) due to such manipulation (that hypothetically ends up being successful).
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September 21, 2019, 06:42:37 PM

Unlike Gold, bitcoin is total supply is fixed and can be seen by everyone.

You can fake gold's supply and nobody will notice. Tungsten bars in central bank inventories, in circulation, all kinds of fuckery. You don't even need tungsten to fake gold at all. A computer is enough.

If they artificially lower bitcoin's price, the demand won't disappear. Whoever was pulling that stupid trick will go bankrupt instead.

That is not going to work on bitcoin.

*If they artificially increase the price, well that means lambo time.
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September 21, 2019, 06:45:37 PM

In the "other weird fucking news" category...

https://www.opb.org/news/article/eastern-oregon-western-cattle-deaths-mystery-theories/#.XYZlzYpkhxw.twitter

the fuck
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lose: unfind ... loose: untight


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September 21, 2019, 06:48:51 PM
Merited by El duderino_ (3), vapourminer (1), 600watt (1), VB1001 (1)

Trace Mayer at this morning's session:



Basic message: Bitcoin provides us with our strongest possible defensive armament for the upcoming economic wars.

Also Tyler Lindholm and Caitlin Long. And my hand representing for WO.
Ludwig Von
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September 21, 2019, 07:01:45 PM

Quote
Previewing the debut of trading in daily and monthly physically-delivered Bitcoin on Monday,
@FortuneMagazine
 offers a glimpse of what’s to come
https://twitter.com/Bakkt/status/1175094597355282433

Will the Bakkt Launch Help Bitcoin Go Mainstream?

Quote
On September 22, a product designed to remake Bitcoin as a mainstream investment for the world's investment managers will go live. When ICE Futures U.S., one of the world's largest commodities markets, opens trading at 8 p.m. ET that day, it will offer Bakkt Daily and Monthly Bitcoin Futures, the first physically delivered crypto-currency contracts ever traded on a federally regulated exchange.

https://fortune.com/2019/09/20/bitcoin-futures-bakkt-launch/

This is coming.


https://i.imgur.com/kQ2Rca8.jpg
Well, allow me to be extremely sceptical of wheter this will be positive for BTC. Probably yes at first, but long term no. It will first try to suppress volatility, later become a tool for outright manipulation. Just like what happens with gold.

Bitcoin is not gold - even though you are likely correct that there are going to be plenty of attempts to manipulate bitcoin in the same kinds of way.  A relevant and material question remains about whether there is going to be the same or similar levels of success in manipulating bitcoin as there has been with Gold.  I would not assume the latter before it has had a sufficient and reasonable opportunity to play out and to be sufficiently and adequately tested.    Let's see... let's see.

By the way, Ludwig Von, let's assume that you are correct about the ultimate manipulation success of various traditional financial tools to adequately and meaningfully manipulate BTC into a kind of meaningless oblivion:   how long do you believe that such meaningful manipulation is going to play out before it achieves success?  2 years?  5 years? 10 years?  20 years?  Can we still benefit by being in BTC in the meantime while we are monitoring the level of meaningful manipulation of BTC and whether it will actually play out?

In other words, my questions are still implying a BIG so what to your hypothetical because we should not assume the second part and even if the second part will play out, as you suggested, we have time to still both benefit from the shorter term and to be able to get out of BTC if we recognize some actual meaningful interference with bitcoin's actual use case(s) due to such manipulation (that hypothetically ends up being successful).

As you said, we will see. And my scepticism goes in the first place to the intentions of big money. As it reads in the Fortune article, they intend to "Stabilize" BTC. Whatever that may mean. I remember having read similar things about the CME thing. Now, as for me, no problem if they burn their asses on BTC, after all, it 's what they deserve... .  Wink
JayJuanGee
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ESG, KYC & AML are attack vectors on Bitcoin


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September 21, 2019, 07:04:59 PM
Merited by suchmoon (4)

Trace Mayer at this morning's session:



Basic message: Bitcoin provides us with our strongest possible defensive armament for the upcoming economic wars.

Also Tyler Lindholm and Caitlin Long. And my hand representing for WO.

Did you get an opportunity to ask Trace and/or Caitlin (or to inform them, which seems to be your all knowing style) about how bcash SV is the most bitcoin of the bitcoins and/or to inform them about how segregated witness and the core devs are sabotaging bitcoin in order to make bitcoin the less bitcoin of the bitcoins in order that they could roll their eyes at your amazingly level of dumb?    Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
JayJuanGee
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ESG, KYC & AML are attack vectors on Bitcoin


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September 21, 2019, 07:16:27 PM

[edited out]

As you said, we will see. And my scepticism goes in the first place to the intentions of big money. As it reads in the Fortune article, they intend to "Stabilize" BTC. Whatever that may mean. I remember having read similar things about the CME thing. Now, as for me, no problem if they burn their asses on BTC, after all, it 's what they deserve... .  Wink

You really believe that bitcoin gives two shits about the CME thing?  Do you really believe that the launch of the CME actually caused BTC's 2018 correction? 

It seems to me that you are giving too much credit towards these dumbass theories about traditional financial institutions abilities to actually affect bitcoin price dynamics in any kind of way that is the same as other ways that they have been successful to manipulate other assets such as gold and also like you said their asserted goals to "stabilize" bitcoin.

I will admit that I had a lot of doubts about $19,666 being a sufficient blow off top for BTC price dynamics in 2017, but really in retrospect, we can both recognize that the 3x to 5x greater than the most bullish of expectations was enough of a price rise in order for BTC to deserve a decently sized correction, and really, so far, our current BTC correction was neither as BIG as the 2014 correction nor was it drawn out as long as that 2014/15 correction.  So, anyhow my point was that there was likely some amount of BTC price correction that was either due or at least within the realm of reasonable expectations and normal BTC price movements rather than CME or any of the entrance of the traditional financial instruments abilities to really be able to successfully control BTC prices, anywhere beyond mere short-term possibilities and to take advantage of BTC price momentum that already exists.

In other words, fuck their claims of being able to successfully be able to stabilize (or manipulate BTC prices).  Sure, on a personal level, you might want to make sure that you are prepared for some of their possible success in that direction, but I would not short change myself in my preparedness for BTC prices to go up and their stupid ass attempts at manipulation and stabilization to not be as successful at they fantasized to be able to achieve.
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September 21, 2019, 07:28:12 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)

[edited out]

As you said, we will see. And my scepticism goes in the first place to the intentions of big money. As it reads in the Fortune article, they intend to "Stabilize" BTC. Whatever that may mean. I remember having read similar things about the CME thing. Now, as for me, no problem if they burn their asses on BTC, after all, it 's what they deserve... .  Wink

You really believe that bitcoin gives two shits about the CME thing?  Do you really believe that the launch of the CME actually caused BTC's 2018 correction? 

In other words, fuck their claims of being able to successfully be able to stabilize (or manipulate BTC prices).  Sure, on a personal level, you might want to make sure that you are prepared for some of their possible success in that direction, but I would not short change myself in my preparedness for BTC prices to go up and their stupid ass attempts at manipulation and stabilization to not be as successful at they fantasized to be able to achieve.

Oh no, in fact I think they overestimated their impact. And indeed, there were a whole lot of other events that caused the blow off top. (Just as there was a lot of irrationallity on the upramp). And as it happened, it was bliss for me. (Just the quasi winter that followed was not so nice). And I do only prepare for upwards, big upwards, but not to fast. In ladders with small steps!  Wink Wink
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Make Bitcoin glow with ENIAC


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September 21, 2019, 07:29:42 PM


JJG on ignore

Lovely
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nothing to see here


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September 21, 2019, 07:39:32 PM

back reading WO
til that triangle resolves
how long will it take?

good evening #haiku @ $10.001




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Defend Bitcoin and its PoW: bitcoincleanup.com


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September 21, 2019, 07:41:17 PM
Merited by vapourminer (1), JayJuanGee (1)


It is like, the more poorer you are, the longer you stay poor.


bingo

I would not say so. I could go flat out broke today and I would still have skills, experience, character and a university degree. So compared to someone without any education or experience, relativistically speaking, I'd be back on my feet much sooner. $0 in my pockets would be a short-lived inconvenience, at most.
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Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it


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September 21, 2019, 07:48:13 PM

So what do you trolls and so called geniuses think of the btc price 6 months from now?


undervalued



Yeah. I picked $11-11.5k so 'obviously' I don't know zip about price vs reality.

sigh



Right there with ya. Smiley


It is like, the more poorer you are, the longer you stay poor.

The more richer you are, the shorter it takes to get even more richer.


Regarding the latter and btc...imagine being a whale and gaining or losing millions a day, almost every day. It could be exhausting.

Re being poor...read this...it sucks even more to be OLD and poor because you have very few options or no options.
The narrative of the next few decades for millions might be the story of going from high middle class to lower middle class or becoming poor.
Hopefully, bitcoin would rescue some.

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/falling

That was a great read. Thx
makrospex
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nothing to see here


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September 21, 2019, 07:50:34 PM


It is like, the more poorer you are, the longer you stay poor.


bingo

I would not say so. I could go flat out broke today and I would still have skills, experience, character and a university degree. So compared to someone without any education or experience, relativistically speaking, I'd be back on my feet much sooner. $0 in my pockets would be a short-lived inconvenience, at most.

It's statistically proven, that people who gain the most profit on earth are also the wealthiest ones.
Poor people have many times less chances to make profit, because they have to spend all their money for basic needs (food, home, mobility).
There's just nothing left to invest.
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September 21, 2019, 07:58:25 PM


It is like, the more poorer you are, the longer you stay poor.


bingo

There is more;

From my experiences, I can tell, getting rich is like riding a bike.

It is all muscle memory.

First time is the hardest. Once you succeed it, you can go to zero and get back to where you were before much quicker than before.

*Now I remember there was a saying something like;

"The first million you earned is the hardest..."

Might be related to that.
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September 21, 2019, 08:01:31 PM



It is like, the more poorer you are, the longer you stay poor.


bingo

There is more;

From my experiences, I can tell, getting rich is like riding a bike.

It is all muscle memory.

First time is the hardest. Once you succeed it, you can go to zero and get back to where you were before much quicker than before.



I think its more about fear of losing what little money you have, if you don't know how to invest it because you don't have such experience. So you just kind of stay away from anything new and let what little money you have earned go stale under your mattress.

You could invest 1k in bitcoin this year and come out with 2k as soon as the end of the year perhaps. But most people are too afraid.
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September 21, 2019, 08:03:49 PM

Trace Mayer at this morning's session:



Basic message: Bitcoin provides us with our strongest possible defensive armament for the upcoming economic wars.

Also Tyler Lindholm and Caitlin Long. And my hand representing for WO.

Did you get an opportunity to ask Trace and/or Caitlin (or to inform them, which seems to be your all knowing style) about how bcash SV is the most bitcoin of the bitcoins and/or to inform them about how segregated witness and the core devs are sabotaging bitcoin in order to make bitcoin the less bitcoin of the bitcoins in order that they could roll their eyes at your amazingly level of dumb?  

Nope. I don't need to press the point to know Trace is a BTC maximalist. Caitlin OTOH seems more open to other than such dogmatic views. But she has her hands full this week in putting on this event, while steering the WY legislature to world-leading laws governing crypto.

Though if we hit a lull in the conversation while in a social setting, I'll make sure to let them know you personally are interested in such triviality.
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ESG, KYC & AML are attack vectors on Bitcoin


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September 21, 2019, 08:06:00 PM


JJG on ignore

Lovely

Oh you are so god damned original, fatty.  I am besides myself with the level of your brilliance.

You are probably the amongst the first of WO members to actually come up with the "ignore JJG" solution.  And, good on you to publicly share your great idea in order that you can inspire other like-minded WO regulars to "benefit" from such innovative employment of a tool with which this forum empowers you ladies.

You fucking (dis)ingenuous troll twat.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
JayJuanGee
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September 21, 2019, 08:12:32 PM


It is like, the more poorer you are, the longer you stay poor.


bingo

I would not say so. I could go flat out broke today and I would still have skills, experience, character and a university degree. So compared to someone without any education or experience, relativistically speaking, I'd be back on my feet much sooner. $0 in my pockets would be a short-lived inconvenience, at most.

It's statistically proven, that people who gain the most profit on earth are also the wealthiest ones.
Poor people have many times less chances to make profit, because they have to spend all their money for basic needs (food, home, mobility).
There's just nothing left to invest.

What you say is true, makrospex; however, we don't participate in threads like this in order to emphasize some kind of inevitability in our station (however humble our station might be), right?

Wouldn't you conclude that BTC provides many more options to many more peeps, in terms of investment opportunities than other traditional avenues of investment?

Of course, no one here should be suggesting that peeps not food and shelter themselves prior to investing, yet if anyone wants to attempt to improve their lot in life, they should be attempting to make some efforts, even if that is ONLY the ability to muster up $5 per month to invest in bitcoin.  In the long run, if they can hold and build their investment for at least 5 years, they are going to likely profit from such investment into BTC strategy, even if what they are able to successfully carry out is merely a very modest investment strategy.  Right?
JayJuanGee
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September 21, 2019, 08:18:40 PM

Trace Mayer at this morning's session:



Basic message: Bitcoin provides us with our strongest possible defensive armament for the upcoming economic wars.

Also Tyler Lindholm and Caitlin Long. And my hand representing for WO.

Did you get an opportunity to ask Trace and/or Caitlin (or to inform them, which seems to be your all knowing style) about how bcash SV is the most bitcoin of the bitcoins and/or to inform them about how segregated witness and the core devs are sabotaging bitcoin in order to make bitcoin the less bitcoin of the bitcoins in order that they could roll their eyes at your amazingly level of dumb?  

Nope. I don't need to press the point to know Trace is a BTC maximalist. Caitlin OTOH seems more open to other than such dogmatic views. But she has her hands full this week in putting on this event, while steering the WY legislature to world-leading laws governing crypto.

Though if we hit a lull in the conversation while in a social setting, I'll make sure to let them know you personally are interested in such triviality.

What the fuck do I have to do with this, jbreher?  You are the fucking bcash SV shill/troll (believer), not me.  Don't you have to take responsibility for your own stupid-ass beliefs rather than trying to cop out by saying that someone else put you up to asking about their views on the bcash SV matter?
makrospex
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September 21, 2019, 08:24:10 PM
Last edit: September 21, 2019, 08:35:37 PM by makrospex
Merited by vapourminer (1)


It is like, the more poorer you are, the longer you stay poor.


bingo

I would not say so. I could go flat out broke today and I would still have skills, experience, character and a university degree. So compared to someone without any education or experience, relativistically speaking, I'd be back on my feet much sooner. $0 in my pockets would be a short-lived inconvenience, at most.

It's statistically proven, that people who gain the most profit on earth are also the wealthiest ones.
Poor people have many times less chances to make profit, because they have to spend all their money for basic needs (food, home, mobility).
There's just nothing left to invest.

What you say is true, makrospex; however, we don't participate in threads like this in order to emphasize some kind of inevitability in our station (however humble our station might be), right?

Wouldn't you conclude that BTC provides many more options to many more peeps, in terms of investment opportunities than other traditional avenues of investment?

Of course, no one here should be suggesting that peeps not food and shelter themselves prior to investing, yet if anyone wants to attempt to improve their lot in life, they should be attempting to make some efforts, even if that is ONLY the ability to muster up $5 per month to invest in bitcoin.  In the long run, if they can hold and build their investment for at least 5 years, they are going to likely profit from such investment into BTC strategy, even if what they are able to successfully carry out is merely a very modest investment strategy.  Right?

When you look at the past of Bitcoin, yes. And you can expect continuation, yes.
Remember, we're geeks (at least i am), but the majority of the poor is fighting to survive each day. Nobody of these people have the tools and abilities to gain knowledge about and also to aquire bitcoins. Neither they have the education to understand or gain access to knowledge. When you'd give most people a paper wallet with a coin in it, they would laugh at you and yell that the paper can't buy food for them.
The power of Fiat. I doubt anything can break it, in near-future terms.
In Africa, most poor elevated their wealth just because of CELLPHONES and this trend continues. I consider this at least the start of possibilities to bring bitcoin to (former) poor people.


EDIT:
Maybe i'm way off topic, it's somehow hard to stay focused today, for various exhausting reasons. It's also harder for me to "think english", possibly my post doesn't make any sense in regard of the current discussion. Back to read-only mode for today...
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