Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[hdbuck]

So what is your solution to the bottle neck problem?? Most small blockers don't have one.

There is no bottleneck if you pay a bit more. The fees are pretty decent, even for top priority, for a "crowded" block anyway. If someone wants his dust to move at once though, by paying peanuts, let him wait.

Higher fees don't remove the upper limit of 7 transactions per second. Is that so hard to understand?

go litecoin if you want more tx/s. hell no just go all in ripple you moron.

i dont mind paying even a huge fee just to have the full control of my funds, being able to send when i want, where i want.

[becoin]

Higher fees don't remove the upper limit of 7 transactions per second. Is that so hard to understand?

Neither does XT altcoin.  Is that so hard to understand?

[ChartBuddy]

Coin
Explanation

[becoin]

After the sell off support for XT fork has evaporated. XT alcoin is basically dead. Mike and Gavin have lost their credibility and will not be accepted as core devs anymore. Question is: can they harm bitcoin in any other way?

[Norway]

So what is your solution to the bottle neck problem?? Most small blockers don't have one.

There is no bottleneck if you pay a bit more. The fees are pretty decent, even for top priority, for a "crowded" block anyway. If someone wants his dust to move at once though, by paying peanuts, let him wait.

Higher fees don't remove the upper limit of 7 transactions per second. Is that so hard to understand?

go litecoin if you want more tx/s. hell no just go all in ripple you moron.

i dont mind paying even a huge fee just to have the full control of my funds, being able to send when i want, where i want.

Don't tell me what to do. I'll put you on ignore now.

[Norway]

Higher fees don't remove the upper limit of 7 transactions per second. Is that so hard to understand?

Neither does XT altcoin.  Is that so hard to understand?

XT is not an altcoin. And it does widen the bottleneck until a better scaling solution is in place.

[AlexGR]

So what is your solution to the bottle neck problem?? Most small blockers don't have one.

There is no bottleneck if you pay a bit more. The fees are pretty decent, even for top priority, for a "crowded" block anyway. If someone wants his dust to move at once though, by paying peanuts, let him wait.

Higher fees don't remove the upper limit of 7 transactions per second. Is that so hard to understand?

Bitcoin is both store of value and a service. And the service has a cost/reward ratio when using it.

My mailman has a certain limit of how many letters or packages he can deliver per hour. However the postal costs prevent companies from mailing millions of spam envelopes, and, indirectly asking my local mailman to deliver 10.000 spam envelopes per hour. Thus snail mail is used when the cost/reward ratio is adequate for the one who is using it.

I need to pay 0.60 euro, for a simple envelope that will be delivered in the same city I live - even if it's the house next door. Why shouldn't I pay a few cents for transferring 10 btc / 2300$ - when a wire transfer would take tens of dollars?

If I want to move around 0.05$, and the fee is too big, it's ok - I won't do it. That's what real life is all about. Compromises. When you want to send money to a friend through paypal (using CC), paypal charges 70 cents, whether it's 1$, or 10$, or 100-1000$. It's apparent that in the case of 1$ you won't even consider it due to the charge.

Likewise, I have a ton of junk that I could be selling in ebay, but I'm not doing it because they are heavy and the cost to mail them is, in many cases, much larger than the item itself. Thus I'm not able to sell these junk stuff because a buyer sees the item at, say, 20$ and postal fees at 30$ or 50$ or 100$ due to weight, so he is like, ok, this is absurd - fuck it. That's because the postal service has limitations while carrying weights that make you pay a lot if you are "overusing" their service. Again: These are compromises we make all the time, why would anyone expect that BTC will do everything without any compromise whatsoever?

So in crypto, in theory, you could make very large block sizes and make a mandatory fee structure that escalates dramatically as it tries to fit in a lot of transactions that are considered above rational capacity - to emulate the postal service. But, still, you won't compete with VISA's 2000tx/sec average because you can't do microtransactions at low cost.  Maybe BTC can compete with certain SWIFT and Western Union transactions, cost wise, and then get altcoins, modeled after bitcoin, to do the VISA stuff for microtransactions. Or find another way to do it.

For as long as half the block transactions are dust or near-dust, there's not much rush. Yeah, some companies might try to flood the network to "prove" that we need a bigger block, and then after the block is raised to say 8mb or 20mb, the same companies might be doing similar tests and saying "oh, yes, you see at this rate of increase for a determined attacker like us that is willing to spend XXX BTC per day in fees, it's just a matter of X time for BTC to become unusable for most, or centralized, so we have to find alternatives - and we are now selling to you the new, offchain service that will protect the future of Bitcoin"

People are saying that 1mb promotes interests of offchain companies etc, but wait what'll happen if it ever goes to 8 or 16 or 32mb blocks and these same companies become much more "necessary" to "protect the future of btc".

[Paashaas]

After the sell off support for XT fork has evaporated. XT alcoin is basically dead. Mike and Gavin have lost their credibility and will not be accepted as core devs anymore. Question is: can they harm bitcoin in any other way?

You are a pessimist and a pessimist is a not well informed optimist.

If you think Mike and Gravin are idiots then Satoshi is a retard to..

[Norway]

So what is your solution to the bottle neck problem?? Most small blockers don't have one.

There is no bottleneck if you pay a bit more. The fees are pretty decent, even for top priority, for a "crowded" block anyway. If someone wants his dust to move at once though, by paying peanuts, let him wait.

Higher fees don't remove the upper limit of 7 transactions per second. Is that so hard to understand?

Bitcoin is both store of value and a service. And the service has a cost/reward ratio when using it.

My mailman has a certain limit of how many letters or packages he can deliver per hour. However the postal costs prevent companies from mailing millions of spam envelopes, and, indirectly asking my local mailman to deliver 10.000 spam envelopes per hour. Thus snail mail is used when the cost/reward ratio is adequate for the one who is using it.

I need to pay 0.60 euro, for a simple envelope that will be delivered in the same city I live - even if it's the house next door. Why shouldn't I pay a few cents for transferring 10 btc / 2300$ - when a wire transfer would take tens of dollars?

If I want to move around 0.05$, and the fee is too big, it's ok - I won't do it. That's what real life is all about. Compromises. When you want to send money to a friend through paypal (using CC), paypal charges 70 cents, whether it's 1$, or 10$, or 100-1000$. It's apparent that in the case of 1$ you won't even consider it due to the charge.

Likewise, I have a ton of junk that I could be selling in ebay, but I'm not doing it because they are heavy and the cost to mail them is, in many cases, much larger than the item itself. Thus I'm not able to sell these junk stuff because a buyer sees the item at, say, 20$ and postal fees at 30$ or 50$ or 100$ due to weight, so he is like, ok, this is absurd - fuck it. That's because the postal service has limitations while carrying weights that make you pay a lot if you are "overusing" their service. Again: These are compromises we make all the time, why would anyone expect that BTC will do everything without any compromise whatsoever?

So in crypto, in theory, you could make very large block sizes and make a mandatory fee structure that escalates dramatically as it tries to fit in a lot of transactions that are considered above rational capacity - to emulate the postal service. But, still, you won't compete with VISA's 2000tx/sec average because you can't do microtransactions at low cost.  Maybe BTC can compete with certain SWIFT and Western Union transactions, cost wise, and then get altcoins, modeled after bitcoin, to do the VISA stuff for microtransactions. Or find another way to do it.

For as long as half the block transactions are dust or near-dust, there's not much rush. Yeah, some companies might try to flood the network to "prove" that we need a bigger block, and then after the block is raised to say 8mb or 20mb, the same companies might be doing similar tests and saying "oh, yes, you see at this rate of increase for a determined attacker like us that is willing to spend XXX BTC per day in fees, it's just a matter of X time for BTC to become unusable for most, or centralized, so we have to find alternatives - and we are now selling to you the new, offchain service that will protect the future of Bitcoin"

People are saying that 1mb promotes interests of offchain companies etc, but wait what'll happen if it ever goes to 8 or 16 or 32mb blocks and these same companies become much more "necessary" to "protect the future of btc".

Bitcoin allready has a fee structure to deal with spam, and the wallets are implementing dynamic fees as we speak. A higher capacity system will be a lot more expensive to spam. If you think 7 tps is enough for the future of bitcoin, why don't you just say so?

[dreamspark]

Higher fees don't remove the upper limit of 7 transactions per second. Is that so hard to understand?

Neither does XT altcoin.  Is that so hard to understand?

XT is not an altcoin. And it does widen the bottleneck until a better scaling solution is in place.

The point is it's still not a very good solution and the bottle neck would not be present without the spam/dust transactions.

It's really that simple.

It's a kick the can down the road situation that amounts to Gavin and Mike throwing a hissy fit.

Do you read the BIP's? Its not like core are sitting there saying 1mb is good forever, just that the solution isn't to suddenly throw 8mb patches into the mix. Further XT is basically Gavin and Mikes coin, are you confident that you want to trust the future of the project to these two dictators who, even if other devs join them on XT, could just do the same thing further down the line when they want to change something else.

[natewelt]

I think this guy has figured it out.



Credit to: https://www.whaleclub.co/post/RaaVi

Classic hurricane force winds trend. Very reliable indicator. 

[gentlemand]

Do you read the BIP's? Its not like core are sitting there saying 1mb is good forever, just that the solution isn't to suddenly throw 8mb patches into the mix. Further XT is basically Gavin and Mikes coin, are you confident that you want to trust the future of the project to these two dictators who, even if other devs join them on XT, could just do the same thing further down the line when they want to change something else.

Perhaps the time has come to put demarchy into practice. Or, if digital autonomous corporations are in the pipeline, perhaps we can persuade Bitcoin to develop itself. I'm finding the human element in all this exceedingly tiresome. 

[Norway]

Higher fees don't remove the upper limit of 7 transactions per second. Is that so hard to understand?

Neither does XT altcoin.  Is that so hard to understand?

XT is not an altcoin. And it does widen the bottleneck until a better scaling solution is in place.

The point is it's still not a very good solution and the bottle neck would not be present without the spam/dust transactions.

It's really that simple.

It's a kick the can down the road situation that amounts to Gavin and Mike throwing a hissy fit.

Do you read the BIP's? Its not like core are sitting there saying 1mb is good forever, just that the solution isn't to suddenly throw 8mb patches into the mix. Further XT is basically Gavin and Mikes coin, are you confident that you want to trust the future of the project to these two dictators who, even if other devs join them on XT, could just do the same thing further down the line when they want to change something else.

I aggree it's kicking the can down the road. It's a temporary solution to a problem that can become significant next year. Adoption of bitcoin can suddenly grow exponential if it becomes popular. Gavin and Mike plan for success. In the future, I hope a scaling solution will be subsets of nodes verifying subsets of the transactions. (Today, everybody must verify every transaction.)

None of the BIPs you talk about have been put in effect. That's why we have XT today.

EDIT: And yes, I trust Gavin more than Wladimir.

[becoin]

After the sell off support for XT fork has evaporated. XT alcoin is basically dead. Mike and Gavin have lost their credibility and will not be accepted as core devs anymore. Question is: can they harm bitcoin in any other way?

You are a pessimist and a pessimist is a not well informed optimist.

If you think Mike and Gravin are idiots then Satoshi is a retard to..

I'm optimist and I believe bitcoin's future is bright.
Mike and Gavin are not idiots. They are just tools in the hands of their masters.

[ChartBuddy]

Coin
Explanation

[becoin]

I aggree it's kicking the can down the road. It's a temporary solution to a problem that can become significant next year.

A temporary solution that makes problem it pretends to solve even worse is not a solution at all. It changes this problem from temporary to chronic.

[AlexGR]

Bitcoin allready has a fee structure to deal with spam, and the wallets are implementing dynamic fees as we speak. A higher capacity system will be a lot more expensive to spam. If you think 7 tps is enough for the future of bitcoin, why don't you just say so?

An increase of TPS is already being discussed by core-devs, and they are trying to find the optimal way to implement it.

With a very large percentage of BTC txs being dust, they have plenty of time to figure it out.

What we don't have the luxury to do, is to start rogue forks that create friction in the dev community. But then again, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

As for spam, fees and block sizes: Altcoin Monero has a dynamic sized block. Let's say that, dynamically, the size can enlarge significantly. When it was spam-attacked last year (hint: the bloat created by anonymous coins is multiple size that of bitcoin), do you think people were like "oh, it's ok we have big blocks and we are ok"? No. They had to quickly implement high fees to stop the attack as it would bloat it to unusable levels. It was the fees that stopped the attack, not the self-adapting increasing blocksize.

LTC also used a patch, in the past, to prevent some spam techniques that were used against it. BTC might need to integrate it too.

[Norway]

I aggree it's kicking the can down the road. It's a temporary solution to a problem that can become significant next year.

A temporary solution that makes problem it pretends to solve even worse is not a solution at all. It changes this problem from temporary to chronic.

No. Why do you believe that?

[becoin]

EDIT: And yes, I trust Gavin more than Wladimir.

In general I don't trust those core devs that couple of years ago were vocally or silently opposing translation of Satoshi client GUI into Farsi coming up with the argument that there are sanctions in place from the US government against Iran. If you like to trust such people, well, good luck with your choice.

[aztecminer]

we were at 220 for weeks.. there has been no blood in the streets yet.. unless you consider bitfinex as blood .. which i have a hard time believing there was a whole lot of selling in that brief moment and it suddenly stopped.