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Question: How far will this leg take us?
$110K - 9 (8.3%)
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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26966503 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 1 users with 9 merit deleted.)
ChartBuddy
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February 06, 2016, 06:01:22 PM

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coins101
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February 06, 2016, 06:49:32 PM


where's dev

lol.

On a more serious note, in the background the devs are working on hard fork details.

Not long now.
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February 06, 2016, 07:02:03 PM

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February 06, 2016, 07:23:35 PM
Last edit: February 06, 2016, 07:42:26 PM by jbreher

Meant to not change without how much consensus?

Edit: Some of it? All of it?

More then 75% of hash power and a few big name exchanges, thats for sure.

Well, no. If any more than 50% of the hash power decides to change Bitcoin, then Bitcoin will change. It is a certainty.

It may be painful as the longest chain waffles back and forth between the changed and the unchanged, but eventually, the chain built as per rules agreed to by the majority hash power will dominate. This potential to waffle is why the threshold for activating the new rules is put at a supermajority level - say... 75%.

No because the chain they mine will be not considered valid by nodes. Nodes and users ultimately decide what bitcoin is.

Mining trigger is used simply because its something that can be measured. Node count can be sybiled.

You know any significant miners that are not nodes? No, neither do I.

Here's the dirty little secret nobody wants to discuss: pure nodes have no power. None whatsoever.

What miners want, miners will get. The only counterbalance is the prospect that the users will abandon the coin en masse.

Its actually the other-way round miners do not have real power. It does not matter or effect bitcoin users if miners choose to mine a different chain.

The only effect on majority of nodes will be that hash power would drastically drop, and therefore confirmation times would increase. That is only until difficulty adjusts.

But miners can not do that anyway as they would bankrupt themselves by mining a worthless coin. They have to mine the coin that has the nodes and users.  

The miners will spin up as many nodes as are needed for the use of the miners. Compared to the cost of a viable mining operation, the cost of operating a node is lost in the noise.

Yes, users have the power to abandon the chain en masse. That is the only power users have. Non mining node operators (note: I would fit that description, so this is not meant as a mere insult) have zero-point-nothing power.

The power rests with the miners. They can do anything that does not cause the users to overwhelmingly abandon the chain.
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February 06, 2016, 07:29:18 PM

We are nowhere close to "everything will suck soon" tm. You guys have been saying that for a year now btw.

Actually several years. We've been repeatedly pointing at the same stupid, unnecessary hard ceiling, and pointing out that the inexorable trend of increasing transactions has us on a clear intersect.

In the meantime, we have recently gone from things never sucking in regards to capacity, to things sucking for brief flashes of time. The issue is not how much one needs to pay to get a transaction through, the issue is that with the current block size, no more than about 350,000 transactions can be processed in a day. Period. No matter how much money is thrown at the transactions.
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February 06, 2016, 07:32:34 PM

Accordingly, I still have troubles understanding when the blocksize and/or scaling issues are presented as "an emergency."

Do you understand the principle of non-parallel lines in a two-dimensional cartesian coordinate system?
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February 06, 2016, 07:40:16 PM

I haven't felt any significant delay because usually the transaction will show up with zero confirmations within 5 minutes or so then I can rest assured that it is coming to me.

When blocks become persistently full, you will never be able to safely assume that a zero-conf transaction will ever get included in a block.

And that is a fact.
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February 06, 2016, 07:58:41 PM

Accordingly, I still have troubles understanding when the blocksize and/or scaling issues are presented as "an emergency."

Do you understand the principle of non-parallel lines in a two-dimensional cartesian coordinate system?

No.  I don't understand:  "non-parallel lines in a two-dimensional cartesian coordinate system."

Do I need to understand "non-parallel lines in a two-dimensional cartesian coordinate system" in order to express my opinion based on my perceptions and my experiences concerning things that I do know and my overall sense of what is going on in the bitcoin space?

I do not claim to know everything or to be infallible.

I also do not claim to be stuck in my ways.  So accordingly, if I perceive or receive sufficient evidence to cause me to change my opinion, I am not going to ignore such evidence and stick with my original belief.

At this point, I believe that the "emergency" is much exaggerated, and not as bit of a deal as it is being made out to be.  That does not mean that NO action need be taken now, but it likely means that we do not need to rush into a solution that is imposed without considering various alternatives. 

Also, I believe that I have asserted several times that there is (and probably should be) a certain amount of bias in favor of the status quo (especially if the system is mostly working), and accordingly, if there are going to be various changes away from the status quo, then the burden of proof and presentation is (and should be) upon those who are proposing to change the status quo...

Describing the situation as "an emergency" seems to be an attempt to cause undue pressure and burden upon the decision making process that is not necessary, especially when it is an exaggeration.
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February 06, 2016, 08:01:04 PM

I haven't felt any significant delay because usually the transaction will show up with zero confirmations within 5 minutes or so then I can rest assured that it is coming to me.

When blocks become persistently full, you will never be able to safely assume that a zero-conf transaction will ever get included in a block.

And that is a fact.

O.k.  I will accept your representation.  Currently, we seem to be a long ways away from the "fact" that you are asserting to be coming about, and from my understanding, there are several potential bandaid solutions in place until a possible more permanent solution is agreed upon or implemented by coup de at...  Wink Wink
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February 06, 2016, 08:01:20 PM

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February 06, 2016, 08:38:55 PM

Up and down like a tart's knickers.

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February 06, 2016, 08:46:33 PM

We are nowhere close to "everything will suck soon" tm. You guys have been saying that for a year now btw.

Actually several years. We've been repeatedly pointing at the same stupid, unnecessary hard ceiling, and pointing out that the inexorable trend of increasing transactions has us on a clear intersect.

In the meantime, we have recently gone from things never sucking in regards to capacity, to things sucking for brief flashes of time. The issue is not how much one needs to pay to get a transaction through, the issue is that with the current block size, no more than about 350,000 transactions can be processed in a day. Period. No matter how much money is thrown at the transactions.

There have been times when I had to wait for multiple full blocks before my transactions got included in one. The time from sending the transactions to getting six confirmations was hours, not an hour like it's supposed to take. At other times when the blocks weren't full and if I got lucky getting included in a block and getting six confirmations took less than an hour. The problem's already manifesting itself, but intermittently.
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February 06, 2016, 08:54:52 PM

Up and down like a tart's knickers.



And that is a fact. Grin
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February 06, 2016, 08:56:58 PM

Accordingly, I still have troubles understanding when the blocksize and/or scaling issues are presented as "an emergency."

Do you understand the principle of non-parallel lines in a two-dimensional cartesian coordinate system?

No.  I don't understand:  "non-parallel lines in a two-dimensional cartesian coordinate system."

Do I need to understand "non-parallel lines in a two-dimensional cartesian coordinate system" ...

In order to have an informed position of the severity of the problem, yes.

But first, let me step back. I may have befuddled you with jargon, and jargon may differ from time to time and from place to place. But the concept is pretty simple, and I imagine you grasp it intuitively, if not intellectually by the jargon I employed.

In a two-dimensional plane, two lines that are not parallel will eventually intersect. This is a geometric mathematical law. Let us illustrate the concept with an example: https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions



What we are looking at is a chart of the number of Bitcoin blockchain transactions per day, plotted against the time axis of the last year. While it is very noisy, we can see that the trend over this year interval is that the number of transactions is clearly rising.

If we wanted to, we could engage in a process called 'curve fitting', where we kind of average out the high-frequency highs and lows, to show more of the trend, and less of the day-to-day variation. Even a moving 7-day average filters out a lot of spikiness: https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions?showDataPoints=false&timespan=&show_header=true&daysAverageString=7&scale=0&address=



As we filter out the day-to-day noise, we get a curve that we can use to extrapolate into the future, to make educated assumptions about what is likely to happen to that quantity as time passes.

Let us now perform a curve fitting to a straight line - while this may not have great fidelity to the past, in the absence of additional info, it is about the best we can hope for as a prediction tool. Eyeballing the graph, we see that we have gone from 'about 90,000' transactions a day one year ago to 'about 180,000' transactions today now. Or roughly doubled in a year.

So let us mark a point today at 180,000, and another point one year ago at 90,000, and draw a straight line through these points.

So there is one of our non-parallel lines. For the other, we need a representation of the max transactions per day that can be processed, based upon the max block size. Today, that number is 'about 350,000'. A year ago, and in all the intervening time, that number is 'about 350,000'. Before that, dating back to the time the 1MB limit was put in place as a temporary DoS avoidance scheme (back when bitcoins were cheap as pennies, BTW), that number was 'about 350,000'.

To represent this on our graph, let us draw a mental line straight across from left to right at the level above the current graph, where 350,000 would be if we preserved the Y axis scale. This is our other non-parallel line.

So with the max block size fixed at 1MB, yielding a hard limit of 'about 350,000' transactions a day, we can project the slope of our actual transactions per day line into the future. We find that they intersect at a point somewhat less than a year away.

Quote
At this point, I believe that the "emergency" is much exaggerated, and not as bit of a deal as it is being made out to be.  That does not mean that NO action need be taken now, but it likely means that we do not need to rush into a solution that is imposed without considering various alternatives.  

Look - I get that you're relatively new here. But rest assured we have been discussing this very issue for several years. Without that perspective in the rear view mirror, you may feel that the urgency is exaggerated. But to those of us who have been tracking this incipient problem for years, the situation does indeed appear dire.

The issue is that, once the lines intersect, growth is limited at the 'about 350,000' transactions a day level. The upward trending line of transactions a day flatlines - limited at the intersect to the system capacity. She can' take any more, cap'n'

You may claim that nearly a year is enough time to work things out. And that is the ~50% probability (assuming the 2x per year is a good curve fit). But those who have been around this for a while know that this animal seems to get adopted in fits and starts. If we had a proportional spike like we did in Jul, or in Sep, or in Dec, the system could not handle the volume. Period. No capacity whatsoever. If it was a spike, the backlog would eventually clear out. But how would the newcomers feel about their money being in limbo for a month? And what if it would have been Bitcoin's eternal September - we would kill all prospects of an explosion in adoption like the Internet experienced in 1993.

note: this is a napkin analysis. Quibbling on the actual numbers does not affect the outcome of 'we are indeed running out of time'.
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February 06, 2016, 09:01:23 PM

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February 06, 2016, 09:21:03 PM

Aroi mak mak ...  Grin Cheesy
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February 06, 2016, 09:22:34 PM

Using the 1MB limit to prevent centralization is like mangling your daughter's face to prevent her from being raped. It's an extremely high price to pay and it doesn't even work that well.

Nope, the 1MB limit is more like teaching your daughter to use self-discipline and situational awareness to avoid dangerous situations, and martial arts/marksmanship should an attempt be made.

Setting a huge block size and expecting spam tx to just go away is like dressing up in slutwear, blacking out drunk at a ghetto frat party, and hoping for the best.
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February 06, 2016, 09:22:40 PM

We are nowhere close to "everything will suck soon" tm. You guys have been saying that for a year now btw.

Actually several years. We've been repeatedly pointing at the same stupid, unnecessary hard ceiling, and pointing out that the inexorable trend of increasing transactions has us on a clear intersect.

In the meantime, we have recently gone from things never sucking in regards to capacity, to things sucking for brief flashes of time. The issue is not how much one needs to pay to get a transaction through, the issue is that with the current block size, no more than about 350,000 transactions can be processed in a day. Period. No matter how much money is thrown at the transactions.

You're making the ridiculously simple assumption that transaction demand is inelastic ... when all evidence points to the fact that it is highly elastic.

There are a majority of small, nonsensically so, transactions that wouldn't happen and have no economic rationale for including in a globally distributed ledger secured by $1million+ per day security of hashing power and massively redundant distributed storage database.

Until anyone comes up with a solid, fact-based plan for how to secure the network in the medium and long term future it makes no sense to kick the can and hope for the best, without verifying first what component of transaction demand is currently inelastic.
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February 06, 2016, 09:28:13 PM

We are nowhere close to "everything will suck soon" tm. You guys have been saying that for a year now btw.

Actually several years. We've been repeatedly pointing at the same stupid, unnecessary hard ceiling, and pointing out that the inexorable trend of increasing transactions has us on a clear intersect.

In the meantime, we have recently gone from things never sucking in regards to capacity, to things sucking for brief flashes of time. The issue is not how much one needs to pay to get a transaction through, the issue is that with the current block size, no more than about 350,000 transactions can be processed in a day. Period. No matter how much money is thrown at the transactions.

Actually, it's more like 230,000 per day. Source: https://oxt.me/charts (Look at the maximum tx volumes in December and January).
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February 06, 2016, 09:37:31 PM


where's dev

Are we on fork? Shocked

Maybe I will have to measure more preciselyin the future to see how long it is taking in actuality- [...]

Or stop making shit up. That works too Smiley


Yeah right. A rough estimate can be different from precise timing, and yep I agree that no one likes anyone who exaggerates.

I think that I tend to not worry whether it takes 15 minutes or an hour or perhaps a day in some instances for the bitcoins to actually be available because I tend to maintain a sufficient balance in Bitcoin and dollars to provide a bit of a cushion for possible volatility.   Therefore if I'm really worried about having some bitcoins locked up in one place for an extended period of time (more than 15 minutes, for example), I could sell an equal or proportionate amount of bitcoins in another place.

And, yep I can imagine instance in which the cushion of bitcoins would not  be there for me for one reason or another, or possible the amount of bitcoins in the pending transaction is really high, so it's more difficult to maintain a cushion or to sell somewhere else .

I suppose if I were dealing in some hypothetical situations in which I needed access to the bitcoins more quickly then I would need to measure more the amount of time more precisely for actual availability versus the bitcoins just showing up as "pending."


I also recognize that other people may experience other kinds of use cases that make it better to have actual access to the coins more quickly, and there are some people who do not operate their lives with various cushions in their finances, so they get a bit more anxious through either inadvertence or lack of preparations.



One of the USPs of Bitcoin is its fluidity. Being able to move funds in less than an hour, instead of (business) days. No need to maintain "cushions", of your own or rented (credit cards). Creating blockchain traffic jams sacrifices that huge advantage of Bitcoin.
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