Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[kenzawak]

Can someone make Arthur Hayes shut up ?

https://www.ccn.com/bitcoin-price-bitmex-ceo-doubles-down-on-bear-call-says-btc-could-fall-to-2000/

CCN reported earlier this week that Hayes, a former Citigroup trader, is now predicting that the bitcoin downtrend could last another 18 months, mirroring the “nuclear bear market” the crypto industry experienced in 2014 and 2015. Writing in Friday’s edition of the BitMEX Crypto Trader Digest, Hayes doubled down on that portentous outlook.

[Hawkix]

Look at those Bollinger bands on the 1D and 3D charts.

All my charts are 2D. Not enough money for better monitor.

[julian071]

I usually roll my eyes when I hear "Taxation is theft", but this?

Them wanting to tax the cash in my wallet sounds crazy to me...

Yet you guys are talking about it like it's most normal and reasonable thing.

Mind-boggling.

Yeah I think we all just see the writing on the wall, you're not getting away from the Government taking their share especially if it has value and we all agree Bitcoins going to long term go up. I mean you can buy things directly for btc but I think vendors include sales tax in most of it. (Newegg for example)

But the tax on just your holdings fuck that including cash, no thanks. Is that some socialism bullshit that's favored there?

Paying your taxes is not socialism, it's patriotism.

Anyway I much prefer the way the taxes work in NL, no taxes whatsoever on trading including 'cashing out' (should really be called cashing in btw), just a very reasonable taxation on holdings, excluding the first 25k and minus debts. Most of the world is much worse off having all these taxable events like trading. They must all be socialist countries then I guess.

[cAPSLOCK]

Look at those Bollinger bands on the 1D and 3D charts.

All my charts are 2D. Not enough money for better monitor.

Well.. the bands are saying you are gonna see a big move one way or the other very soon.  Maybe that money is on the way?  Or maybe the bottom is about to drop out.  The weight of those two possibilities is not in the bands... it's in the fundamentals IMO.

Last time they were hanging around this width was the end of 2016.

[Biodom]

At last, some Tether evidence!

https://tether.to/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Tether-Letter.pdf

Yeah but...

They show a balance of about $1.8B, while Tether market cap (according to CMC) is about $2.5B.

For some reason, this does nothing to assuage my skepticism.

Market cap is 1.768 bil according to CMC (checked just now).
2.5 bil is what they CAN issue, but only 1.768 bil is issued, presumably after they "burned' 0.5B in tokens recently (probably to get to the balance).

[jbreher]

Interesting, I think when I finally start cashing large portions of my HODLING’s I’m going to have to try & emigrate. I am not willing to pay 45% tax on what I sell.

If you're 'merkin, emigrating does nothing to solve the tax problem. They's extract it from you no matter where you be.

[Biodom]

Can someone make Arthur Hayes shut up ?

https://www.ccn.com/bitcoin-price-bitmex-ceo-doubles-down-on-bear-call-says-btc-could-fall-to-2000/

CCN reported earlier this week that Hayes, a former Citigroup trader, is now predicting that the bitcoin downtrend could last another 18 months, mirroring the “nuclear bear market” the crypto industry experienced in 2014 and 2015. Writing in Friday’s edition of the BitMEX Crypto Trader Digest, Hayes doubled down on that portentous outlook.

How the does he know that?
Trace Mayer was saying that market would go to 28K, it went to 20K and stopped cold.
Now Trace is saying that 3.5K is possible, however, maybe it's already done it's bear cycle (mostly).

Nobody knows what the market would do, and if they do, ostensibly, they are not going to tell us.

Is 2k possible. maybe, but is it likely-f, NO.

[LFC_Bitcoin]

Interesting, I think when I finally start cashing large portions of my HODLING’s I’m going to have to try & emigrate. I am not willing to pay 45% tax on what I sell.

If you're 'merkin, emigrating does nothing to solve the tax problem. They's extract it from you no matter where you be.

That 45% was UK wasn't it? It's 15% tops US I'm pretty sure.  

Edit: in the US if you're in the top tax bracket you pay 20% on the gains. Fuck Europe and UK taxes the shit out of you.

I was wrong.
gentlemand said it’s 20% capital gains tax on bitcoin. I’ve literally never declared anything I’ve sold & that includes all of the free BCH I cashed in over the last year.

This is all for future reference obviously (not going to get away with selling when it’s north of 50 k per coin) , I plan to HODL all of my bitcoin’s for at least another 3 maybe 4 years.

[jbreher]

I usually roll my eyes when I hear "Taxation is theft", but this?

Them wanting to tax the cash in my wallet sounds crazy to me...

Yet you guys are talking about it like it's most normal and reasonable thing.

Mind-boggling.

yeah....

If you believe that a band of thugs extracting what they want from you at gunpoint under color of law is in any way legitimate, what the hell difference is it if they do it based upon income or based upon current net holdings? From an ethical standpoint, it is the exact same thing.

[El duderino_]

Interesting, I think when I finally start cashing large portions of my HODLING’s I’m going to have to try & emigrate. I am not willing to pay 45% tax on what I sell.

If you're 'merkin, emigrating does nothing to solve the tax problem. They's extract it from you no matter where you be.

That 45% was UK wasn't it? It's 15% tops US I'm pretty sure.  

Edit: in the US if you're in the top tax bracket you pay 20% on the gains. Fuck Europe and UK taxes the shit out of you.

[julian071]

I usually roll my eyes when I hear "Taxation is theft", but this?

Them wanting to tax the cash in my wallet sounds crazy to me...

Yet you guys are talking about it like it's most normal and reasonable thing.

Mind-boggling.

Yeah I think we all just see the writing on the wall, you're not getting away from the Government taking their share especially if it has value and we all agree Bitcoins going to long term go up. I mean you can buy things directly for btc but I think vendors include sales tax in most of it. (Newegg for example)

But the tax on just your holdings fuck that including cash, no thanks. Is that some socialism bullshit that's favored there?

Paying your taxes is not socialism, it's patriotism.

Anyway I much prefer the way the taxes work in NL, no taxes whatsoever on trading including 'cashing out' (should really be called cashing in btw), just a very reasonable taxation on holdings, excluding the first 25k and minus debts. Most of the world is much worse off having all these taxable events like trading. They must all be socialist countries then I guess.

From my understanding you're taxed on anything in your account over 2.5k each year. So you get taxed multiple times if you keep that money there over multiple years. Doesn't seem like patriotism to me seems like a backwards economic system that wants to inhibit the success and growth of ones on economic independence.

Don't worry give us 1.5% of all of your liquid money every year it's patriotism.

I'm assuming you have plenty of other taxes as well?

You're correct that you get taxed every year, as is customary in most of the world.

You get taxed 1.2% not 1.5% over anything over 25k not 2.5k, minus debts.

Our economic system is not backwards, look up the numbers. Taxing stale money does not inhibit success. Seems like taxing actual success (profit in trading) is more akin to taxing success.

I'd gladly give you a percentage of my wealth if you build the roads I drive my motorcycle on, build the school that my daughter goes to, and there is a system in place whereby I can check and judge your performance, together with my compatriots.

[Ibian]

Interesting, I think when I finally start cashing large portions of my HODLING’s I’m going to have to try & emigrate. I am not willing to pay 45% tax on what I sell.

I hope when that moment come, when btc is worth enough you we are willing to "cash out", we won't need to do that, but instead we can and will start spend those btc worldwide as a real currency

That's still gonna get taxed. No you won't be able to hide it, not if they decide that you are worth going after. Don't be a crook, fundamentally. It sucks but such is the world.

[jbreher]

At last, some Tether evidence!

https://tether.to/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Tether-Letter.pdf

Yeah but...

They show a balance of about $1.8B, while Tether market cap (according to CMC) is about $2.5B.

For some reason, this does nothing to assuage my skepticism.

mebbe you misread
cmc vol is 2.5, cap is 1.7
dunce hat for u  

but yeah, letter schmetter

I had stale data. Corrected upthread.

Nevertheless... what happened to that $700M?

[jbreher]

Can someone make Arthur Hayes shut up ?

https://www.ccn.com/bitcoin-price-bitmex-ceo-doubles-down-on-bear-call-says-btc-could-fall-to-2000/

CCN reported earlier this week that Hayes, a former Citigroup trader, is now predicting that the bitcoin downtrend could last another 18 months, mirroring the “nuclear bear market” the crypto industry experienced in 2014 and 2015. Writing in Friday’s edition of the BitMEX Crypto Trader Digest, Hayes doubled down on that portentous outlook.

Meh. He's just talking his book. He makes money on the churn. Price doesn't matter to him - volatility does.

[jbreher]

Paying your taxes is not socialism, it's patriotism.

Submitting to organized armed thugs is patriotism... got it.

Waitaminute... that ain't patriotism, it's subservience.

You wanna be a patriot, how 'bout you send in a check for ten times what 'the law' says you owe. Actually, that ain't patriotism either. For it will not be going to your nation, but rather to your government. Which is not the same thing.

[Last of the V8s]

what happened to that $700M?

https://tether.to/upcoming-usdt-redemption-october-24th-2018/

thought they burned a bit more, more recently, can't find link

If you believe that a band of thugs extracting what they want from you at gunpoint under color of law is in any way legitimate, what the hell difference is it if they do it based upon income or based upon current net holdings? From an ethical standpoint, it is the exact same thing.

agree

Paying your taxes is not socialism, it's patriotism.

Submitting to organized armed thugs is patriotism... got it.

Waitaminute... that ain't patriotism, it's subservience.

You wanna be a patriot, how 'bout you send in a check for ten times what 'the law' says you owe. Actually, that ain't patriotism either. For it will not be going to your nation, but rather to your government. Which is not the same thing.

agree kinda
you on a roll

[julian071]

Paying your taxes is not socialism, it's patriotism.

Submitting to organized armed thugs is patriotism... got it.

Waitaminute... that ain't patriotism, it's subservience.

You wanna be a patriot, how 'bout you send in a check for ten times what 'the law' says you owe. Actually, that ain't patriotism either. For it will not be going to your nation, but rather to your government. Which is not the same thing.

It is the government that builds and maintains the stuff your nation needs to function. if they fail, select someone else.

Don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely fine with people not wanting to 'subserve' to anything, I just don't like it when people do want to use hospitals, roads, the fire department etc etc and still don't want to pay taxes.

Your tax form is not a voting ballot. Those are two very different things.

You're correct that you get taxed every year, as is customary in most of the world.

You get taxed 1.2% not 1.5% over anything over 25k not 2.5k, minus debts.

Our economic system is not backwards, look up the numbers. Taxing stale money does not inhibit succes. Seems like taxing actual succes (profit in trading) is more akin to taxing succes.

I'd gladly give you a percentage of my wealth if you build the roads I drive my motorcycle on, build the school that my daughter goes to, and there is a system in place whereby I can check and judge your performance, together with my compatriates.

Isn't that already paid for from the Netherlands 51.95% tax rate on anything over 65,000 that's fucking wild right there with that tax rate. On top of that they take 1.2% of your money over $25k and assets(?) What if your savings for a house, retirement or who knows, you just have to fight an uphill battle. I think thise tax rates pay plenty for your roads and schools I know my tax rate of 22% I pay on the same income amount pays for ours.

The tax rate on the top bracket used to be much higher, as in 85%. 'Wild' depends on your frame of reference. I think owning 10 houses and 20 cars is wild. 8 houses and 15 cars should be enough for any one person. Tax everything above that 100% I say.

In general the rate of taxation is kinda high on the income part here, kinda low on what most people here enjoy doing, trading (0%). Other countries just chose to tax trading to pay the schools and roads. You decide what's better.

[jojo69]

Paying your taxes is not socialism, it's patriotism.

Submitting to organized armed thugs is patriotism... got it.

Waitaminute... that ain't patriotism, it's subservience.

You wanna be a patriot, how 'bout you send in a check for ten times what 'the law' says you owe. Actually, that ain't patriotism either. For it will not be going to your nation, but rather to your government. Which is not the same thing.

To be fair, he is living under a much more benign government than us.

It pains me to admit it, as I am fully aware that it runs against my core anarchist beliefs, but if I am really honest with myself much of my life is defined by the yearning for a jurisdiction to which I can peaceably submit.

I do not think such a jurisdiction currently exists.  I am by temperament a mechanic and farmer, not an insurgent.  I do feel that much of my life potential has been stolen from me by the political matrix into which I was born.

[LFC_Bitcoin]

I’m firmly in the ‘get away with paying as little tax as possible’ camp.

I have a really good accoutant who does my companies books (he is not aware I’m invested in bitcoin)

[julian071]

Paying your taxes is not socialism, it's patriotism.

Submitting to organized armed thugs is patriotism... got it.

Waitaminute... that ain't patriotism, it's subservience.

You wanna be a patriot, how 'bout you send in a check for ten times what 'the law' says you owe. Actually, that ain't patriotism either. For it will not be going to your nation, but rather to your government. Which is not the same thing.

To be fair, he is living under a much more benign government than us.

It pains me to admit it, as I am fully aware that it runs against my core anarchist beliefs, but if I am really honest with myself much of my life is defined by the yearning for a jurisdiction to which I can peaceably submit.

I do not think such a jurisdiction currently exists.  I am by temperament a mechanic and farmer, not an insurgent.  I do feel that much of my life potential has been stolen from me by the political matrix into which I was born.

Good point. scale might play an impprtant role. My country is much smaller. I actually said hi to our prime minister when bumping into him when hiking. The smaller scale makes everything much more personal, and more easily manageable with less bureaucracy.

All greys though, still to much bureaucracy....