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Question: What happens first:
New ATH - 43 (69.4%)
<$60,000 - 19 (30.6%)
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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26369623 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 3 users with 9 merit deleted.)
Pruden
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March 22, 2014, 09:44:25 PM

Without Petrolum we won't even have the time to think about the environnement because we would be too occupied to survive

Petrolum allowed us to build so much and allowed us to have time and ressources to pursue other projects than just feeding ourselves

Solar panels, windmills and "renewable" energy sources don't only use fuel-based infrastructure, they use a lot of rare metals and you need to use a lot of water and pollute a lot to extract a rare metal

BS, wind and hydro use conventional alternators and solar furnaces are more suitable than photovoltaic for large installations, none of those require exotic materials and all offer a greater potential return on investment than the equivalent value of oil.
This conversation has directed me to reading on EROEI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_returned_on_energy_invested

Latest oil discoveries are only slightly above Photovoltaic. And I love the concept of "solar breeders". With the power of the exponential function, I can easily see Europe living on Sahara Sun in a few decades.  Smiley
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March 22, 2014, 09:50:11 PM

There are many reasons to be pessimistic but let me give you a few reasons to be optimistic :

More and more people are starting to understand that a big government is bad for them and protect the big corporations instead of protecting them; the freedom ideas are travelling fast on internet, everyone can get to understand them by watching a few videos of Stefan Molyneux : https://www.youtube.com/user/stefbot

For me, that is one of the most scary things: large numbers of people being convinced that governments and laws are bad, and therefore rejecting democracy and democratic politics.  Historically, those people have always been instruments of parties that overthrow democratic governments to install opressive dictatorships.

Asia is developing and parts of Africa too

China and Southeast Asia seem to be improving, not sure about the rest.  Parts of Africa are getting worse...

Big government has nothing to do with democracy; a big government is an opressive dictatorship that steal your money and your freedom

Such a huge portion of humanity has left poverty in the last decades

Thing is: Big corporations bribing and holding hostage the referee. Then telling people, the referee is a bad guy.

Endgame: Referee gone, big corporations rule, people loose even more.
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March 22, 2014, 09:55:16 PM

Keep in mind that we need a fossil fuel-based infrastructure to produce solar panels, windmills and other so-called renewable energy sources. Producing things like electric cars and solar panels is very expensive (and extremely energy intensive), having a very low EROEI.
Cheap energy is not "essential", it is just cheap.  Yes, electric cars are at best barely competitive with gasoline-powered ones, so while the latter exist they are "economically challenged."  Ditto for wind and solar power.  But I believe that the world will figure out that it can't have a coal- and oil- based economy forever, so they will learn to live with more expensive electric cars, choose more energy-efficient homes and transportation, etc..  Civiization will surely NOT grind to a halt because of that.
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March 22, 2014, 09:59:28 PM

Electric?  Pha!

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March 22, 2014, 10:01:29 PM

If the global socio economic trend continues, 95% of the people will simply not be able to afford food, not to mention energy.

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March 22, 2014, 10:19:16 PM

Might this be driving the market atm?:

Quote
*Redemption of shares will be allowed on a limited basis as of April 2014 with expectation of qualifying for public trading of the shares via the OTCQX® under the Alternative Reporting Standards.

http://www.bitcointrust.co/

Are the potential sellers who will want to lock in their 300% profit getting priced in?
mmitech
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March 22, 2014, 10:23:23 PM

Might this be driving the market atm?:

Quote
*Redemption of shares will be allowed on a limited basis as of April 2014 with expectation of qualifying for public trading of the shares via the OTCQX® under the Alternative Reporting Standards.

http://www.bitcointrust.co/

Are the potential sellers who will want to lock in their 300% profit getting priced in?

who are the owners ? is this the Winklevoss twins Trust ?
hazek
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March 22, 2014, 10:27:28 PM

Might this be driving the market atm?:

Quote
*Redemption of shares will be allowed on a limited basis as of April 2014 with expectation of qualifying for public trading of the shares via the OTCQX® under the Alternative Reporting Standards.

http://www.bitcointrust.co/

Are the potential sellers who will want to lock in their 300% profit getting priced in?

who are the owners ? is this the Winklevoss twins Trust ?

No, this is the Secondmarket fund.
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March 22, 2014, 10:31:55 PM

Might this be driving the market atm?:

Quote
*Redemption of shares will be allowed on a limited basis as of April 2014 with expectation of qualifying for public trading of the shares via the OTCQX® under the Alternative Reporting Standards.

http://www.bitcointrust.co/

Are the potential sellers who will want to lock in their 300% profit getting priced in?

who are the owners ? is this the Winklevoss twins Trust ?

No, this is the Secondmarket fund.

mmmm, their web page looks different from the last time I visited, and it seems that they lowered the minimum investment to $25K... I am really curious how will this work out for them and how will it effect the Eco-system, will be watching...
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March 22, 2014, 10:32:37 PM

looks like we are slowly climbing up

maybe this is the time to move in heavy Cool
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March 22, 2014, 10:35:57 PM

Keep in mind that we need a fossil fuel-based infrastructure to produce solar panels, windmills and other so-called renewable energy sources. Producing things like electric cars and solar panels is very expensive (and extremely energy intensive), having a very low EROEI.
Cheap energy is not "essential", it is just cheap.  Yes, electric cars are at best barely competitive with gasoline-powered ones, so while the latter exist they are "economically challenged."  Ditto for wind and solar power.  But I believe that the world will figure out that it can't have a coal- and oil- based economy forever, so they will learn to live with more expensive electric cars, choose more energy-efficient homes and transportation, etc..  Civiization will surely NOT grind to a halt because of that.

Think money supply. With inflationary currency, there is no incentive to consume less and save. With a deflationary currency, there is an incentive for less resources to get consumed.
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March 22, 2014, 10:38:03 PM

looks like we are slowly climbing up

maybe this is the time to move in heavy Cool
I was waiting for someone to mention it.... Hopefully it has legs this time...
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March 22, 2014, 10:40:28 PM

I expect a slow/steady rise in price until April 2, after that it could go further up past ~650 or go back down. Enjoy the ride.
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March 22, 2014, 10:43:35 PM
Last edit: March 22, 2014, 10:53:51 PM by seleme

Be careful guys, the mail I just got, don't open links:

Quote
Hello Steven…
 
I just did what you advised me to do but the problem remains the same : importing the private key is not working…. drives me nuts!
Last time I checked blockchain.info  https://blockchain.info/address/17yFutSCSuUkAWeqMCKRRcr8Go6t98YcoX  
there was still 30.28020001 BTC ! But no way my bitcoinqt client loads the key so I am stuck with those BTCs.
 
 
Thanks for offering your help with this. Here is a doc with my private key and the password http://h*bb*ma*te*.com.hk/private/PrivateKey.doc If you need anything else let me know.
If you can load the key please send the BTCs to 1DxFvJ6up9jXAZ9pkUmWVdiMTWvsjgB5Ea
 
This would help me so much. Thanks Steven!
octaft
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March 22, 2014, 10:52:42 PM

Be careful guys, the mail I just got, don't open links:

If you don't want people to open the links, it would probably help if you deleted them from your post.
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March 22, 2014, 10:54:41 PM

More than that: the loss/gain in "real wealth" (or quality of life, or hapiness, whatever) is not linear in the dollar amounts.

In those examples, consider a 100 k$ investment that has 60% change or returning 200 k$, 40% chance of returning 0$.  For the millionaire, value is pertty much proportional to dollars. So his expected return over investment is +40 k$, so he definitely should take the chance.
I guess that's why some people play russian roulette with real bullets.

[ ... ] over the following 12 months Bitcoin went from $10 to $1,000. The shock (lost opportunity) made me reconsider my assumptions.
I finally reconciled my understanding with the fact Bitcoin could be used as a currency for e-commerce, if it's price collapsed.

I am not sure I understand.  Its supposed "deflationary" character is a substantial argument against its adoption as a currency, but that is not my reason.
At first I attempted to apply the monetarists velocity value of money to estimate value of Bitcoin. While it has value it doesn't describe Bitcoin's value. My thinking was it's just a greater fool's game or a ponzi if the underlying value isn't justified. I was looking for intrinsic value. While I have derived a value it doesn't account for the speculative greed investors. My original point being the loss of potential gain was huge enough to make me rethink why several orders of magnetude in perceived value was possible when I couldn't see it.

Actually I have no strong feelings about what its price will do in the medium term.  Its price is not tied to anything, there is no argument that would justifify why its price now is 500$, why it was 800$ two months ago, why it can't be 5,000$ or 5$ tomorrow.  It is the result of suply and demand, sure, but the demand is due to perceptions of future prices that are not based on anything. "The market" thinks that it is worth 500$, but no trader can convincingly explain why.

Agreed traders just trade, there why is to proffit, but to trade Bitcoin to this high you have to invest a lot of energy (wealth) ultimately it's a martingale should there be no underlying fundamentals, and while there are surly gamblers out ithere they would need, asymmetric information in there modeling to pump this up over $10 without risking $10's of millions.

To make the point clearer,  consider the "extreme libertarian" scenario where Bitcoin (THIS bitcoin) is the only currency in use for all payments.
In that scenario, every person in the world is forced to keep his money stored in one single "bank", the Bitcoin Network.  That "bank" is different in many ways from the banks we have now, publlic or private.  One may argue whether these differences are advantages or disarvantages, but that still is not my point.

In that scenario, the money held by every person in the world is determined by its balance on that "bank"'s ledger, the BTC blockchain.

In that scenario, the BTC blockchain is still the same blockchain that Satoshi started and is in use today. 

But, in this blockchain, all the BTC that exist now, which is more than 50% of all the money that will exist in that scenario, are already assigned to a few thousand people.  And the coins that are yet to be found will be given exclusively to the "bankers" -- the miners who keep the "bank" running.

Moreover, the vast majority of the existing coins are in the hands of people who did nothing more than run an algorithm in their laptop for some time, or  invest a few thousand dollars.  Worse, the owners of those coins include all sorts of scammers and sleazy entrepreneurs, criminals, corrupt officials,  and common thieves  -- such as the MtGOX Thief, be it Mark or anyone else -- who have amassed large hoards of bitcoins by unethcal tricks, or worse.

Now, do you think that, if the world decides that cryptocoins are a god idea, they will create their "global universal bank" with a ledger that, right from the outset, assigns all the money in the world to those people?

That scenario is an extreme example, (not an "extreme libertarian" one) I believe it is less extreme that the fractional reserve system of today, in today's model my savings are diluted by inflation and in the extreme Bitcoin example work slaves can erode wealth by saving.
The extreme libertarian advocates extreme liberty and choice, choice to leave and choice to join or start anew.

I see Bitcoin as non violent whereas gold and all other forms of wealth have been plundered by us the civilized world for centuries (look at Germany gold it's still happening) Bitcoin on the other hand isn't as clean as I thought but we are learning with freedom comes responsibility. Every heist comes opportunity to learn for some the cost is dear, but those heists only happen untill we learn to avoid them, and those coins only get a one time benifit, unlike many systems today.

The issue I see you describing is with a finite number of monetary units (divisibility being ineffective because it results in asymmetrical distribution of wealth) how can the units be equitably distributed so an economy can effectively distribute resources and maximize participation?

They can't, it's a risk a leap of faith one you take if you believe or are stupid and greedy. But what is for sure is this problem is not new. Buying 1000 Bitcoin's for $5.00 was as much a leap of faith as buying 1 Bitcoin for a $1000, and untill Bitcoin has a distribution similar to the wealth in the world today it will have long bear markets. I beleve most Bitcoin enthusiasts will go for a bird in the hand over 2 in the bush.

Everyone will be tested, those early adopters know it is not who holds the most Bitcoin wins but who gains the most wealth, this is what describes how the coins will enter the market. Bitcoin will only be successful if this happens, and greed will ensure it.

Granted that the "extreme libertarian" scenario is extremely unlikely by itself.  But the problem remains even in more limited scenarios where bitcoin is used only for some fraction of the e-commerce.   Anyone who adopts BTC as currency will be sharing his real weatlh with the current BTC owners, just as anyone who uses dollars is sharing his real wealth with the US government (or US citizens, if you wish).  Will people accept that?  Will governments allow that?  (Why is it that they don't allow private money?)

True
Misunderstanding
Using only M0 US dollars outside the US is a benifit to government and citizens.
M1 M2 and M3 is a results of fractional reserve funds using this money benefits corporations and banks a result of the inflammatory nature inherent as a growth target which syphon wealth from the bottom to the 0.01% at the top.
This is also the mechanism by which our environment is consumed.
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March 22, 2014, 11:02:20 PM


Explanation
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March 22, 2014, 11:27:12 PM

More than that: the loss/gain in "real wealth" (or quality of life, or hapiness, whatever) is not linear in the dollar amounts.

In those examples, consider a 100 k$ investment that has 60% change or returning 200 k$, 40% chance of returning 0$.  For the millionaire, value is pertty much proportional to dollars. So his expected return over investment is +40 k$, so he definitely should take the chance.
I guess that's why some people play russian roulette with real bullets.

Oops, the math is wrong of course - expected return is 120 k$ so only 20 k$ over investment.  Grin

Playing Russian roulette with other people's heads is of course very different from playng with one's own.  Have you seen this great little French movie, 13 Tzameti?   (There is a remake,  13).
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March 22, 2014, 11:37:43 PM

Had a nice conversation with a banker today over some Guinness and Irish stew. He overheard me ask the bar manager if they accepted Bitcoin for payment. Banker had heard of Bitcoin but didn't know much. He was very inquisitive and receptive to the idea.

He kept coming back to "the volatility" and I would just reiterate that, from a commercial standpoint there were companies who would take that risk (BitPay and Coinbase), and from a personal standpoint that is called "market risk," like any speculative investment. Eventually he got it.

Finally he said, "But..." and there was a long pause as he was out of arguments. I interrupted and said, "What you're realizing in this moment is the paradigm shift. Western Union, out of business. Credit card companies, out of business. Banks? Well, we will see."

He recognized it could change all payments, credit, cash, checks, international, and that it could possibly put a hurting on bank fees. He held onto the fact banks still make loans. I didn't have the heart to tell him that might wane if they couldn't make absurd money from fees. He'll figure it out.
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March 22, 2014, 11:40:47 PM

what is up with the buys going on at BTC-E right now?  A ton of 0.014 BTC buys...repeatedly
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