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Author Topic: MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]  (Read 855596 times)
tvbcof
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October 16, 2013, 07:00:42 PM
 #1941

Unfortunately trying to address the underlying fundamental problem (corp/gov interference) requires at least a tiny bit of cooperation from Mt. Gox.  When I made an effort to obtain any usable information from them I got back standard boilerplate and nothing which was either usable or even honest.  I got back the standard 'several weeks' bullshit which is both amusing and offensive.

This is actually a bit of a shame because I happen to have the good fortune to be represented by lawmakers who have taken a leading role in addressing the abusive practices of the banking system over the years, and who is especially responsive to the problems of his constituency in the case of my house representative.
MtGox are very careful of what they say in public due to the ongoing case with the DHS and the process with FinCen.  It is a delicate situation.  I am sure relevant government representatives get all the information they request.  Care to tell what your question was?

I'm sure that most representatives have never even heard of Bitcoin, and if they have, they have only the most thin understanding consider it a 'tool for criminals' as do much of our general population.

I detailed my interaction a few pages back:

  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=179586.msg3334957#msg3334957

The particular question of interest was:

  "4) If it is unsafe to attempt this transfer due to confiscation, or considered illegal due to U.S. or Japanese regulatory issues,    please detail the issues so that I may solicit assistance from my elected representative."

Now, of course I am sensitive to communications constraints that Mt. Gox might feel due to legal issues, but it should have been clear that they had a customer who had some desire to cooperate in an attempt to dig at the (probable) underlying issues.

Even though their response was laughable and untruthful boilerplate I still withheld it from public exposure, though in fairness there is no way for them to know that I would do so.

Maybe Mt. Gox is working the problem on their own with various legal maneuvers and what-not, but if that is the case they should figure out some way to communicate this.  As it is, they are obviously blowing smoke up their customer's asses with the 'several weeks' nonsense.  As a result they look more like BFL than they do a legitimate, trustworthy, and competent business.


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October 16, 2013, 09:06:53 PM
 #1942

I sold some coins in the middle of July and early August, did 2 withdrawals (few days each after each sale) to my US bank account, and still nothing. I've talked to them numerous times, always being courteous, but I'm still getting the ring around. In august, they told me 2-3 weeks, now they simply say, "we've got a backlog and working on the queue." To add insult to injury, I recently received an email stating that they can "manually" process my transfer for a 5% fee if I am in a hurry for funds, essentially quadrupling the $60 charge for 2 wire transfers, and when I asked how long this other process would take, they still did not give me a timeline. Why are you even offering me this other process if you don't know how long this takes? Honestly, at this point, I'm moving my bitcoins out because they are just being scumbags. As good as they were, they won't be anymore at this rate.

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Syke
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October 16, 2013, 11:35:10 PM
 #1943

Quote from: MtGox
[A]ny transaction fees levied by any bank intervening between the paying bank and the receiving bank (including the paying bank and the receiving bank) shall be deducted from the currencies transferred.
You don't have to.  You can withdraw by another method or wait for better times.  (Who wants USD anyway?  USD will be worthless in just two days.)
Which "other methods" allow a US customer to withdraw their USD from MtGox?
It is difficult for US customers.  The problems were created by the US government in the first place (no more redeemable codes for fiat, no more LR, no more Dwolla, etc), so please complain to your government/congressman/president/neighbour.  MtGox have very limited options to transfer USD, and have to be very careful not to abuse their options because abuse may interfere with their application to become a payment service.  It is possible to make a express manual withdrawal for a 5% bank fee (very limited, available at MtGox's discression), or just wait it out.  Trade while you wait, and you may make more USD to withdraw when it is back to normal.

That's what I thought. There are no "other methods".

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October 17, 2013, 12:03:31 AM
 #1944

MtGox are very careful of what they say in public due to the ongoing case with the DHS and the process with FinCen.  It is a delicate situation.  I am sure relevant government representatives get all the information they request. 
Sounds like a statement from a PR agency.
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October 17, 2013, 12:47:23 AM
 #1945

MtGox are very careful of what they say in public due to the ongoing case with the DHS and the process with FinCen.  It is a delicate situation.  I am sure relevant government representatives get all the information they request. 
Sounds like a statement from a PR agency.


At this point why don't the current owners just sell the company to some new people so they can move on and work on other things.  The new guys can deal with the US gov't and bang their head against a wall all day long.  There are people in the world who are masochistic enough for this task.

The current owners did some things that appear were intended to evade compliance with US laws and/or regulations, whether one agrees with these or not at this point does not matter.  Most likely like as was the case with Square in Florida they, the corporation, will have to pay a bunch of fines. 

IF things get resolved at the federal level then they will have state AG's lining up to slap 6+ figure fines for flouting state regulations.  We are talking about years, not weeks...






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October 17, 2013, 04:00:20 AM
 #1946


At this point why don't the current owners just sell the company to some new people so they can move on and work on other things. 

They should sell to a broker/dealer offering forex transactions. Would solve all kinds of problems. Unfortunately there probably aren't that many who would bite. Does anyone know anybody at XE? They added XBT as a currency for watching a few months ago but haven't gone live with bitcoin trading yet. Just checked and they're still showing the MTGOX price no less.
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October 17, 2013, 07:50:44 AM
 #1947

@sturle, the MtGox master shill:

My key point is:

Why would anyone transfer USD, EUR, JPY, ... to MtGox when you can buy Bitcoins at any other exchange for ~10% less?


People who think to make a profit wire BTC to MtGox and sell there. This gives MtGox a steady supply of BTC. And they will hold your cash for 6-8 weeks before a payout (at least in EUR).

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October 17, 2013, 08:25:50 AM
 #1948

31.4k BTC left at MtGox. 13.5 million USD left there. Why? Because BTC can leave while USD can't, that's why.
31.4k BTC (36.7k now) is what's left in asks in the order book, and this number decreases because people have been buying a lot of BTC lately.  You may have noticed the price increase.  When you buy BTC, the BTC you bought will disappear from the order book (the ask side) and go into your balance.  The total balance isn't public.  It is obvious that the amount in bids have increased as well.  It as below 11 million a week ago.  I doubt people have deposited 2.5 million USD to MtGox the last few days, so I guess this number is taken from public bids in the order book.  You probably know that people can keep an USD balance on MtGox without placing it all in public bids, so this is a sign of people shifting from selling BTC to buying BTC, which is typical for a rally.  You can see the same happening on all exchanges.

USD are leaving, just very very slowly.  USD is a convertible currency, and many people convert their USD to EUR or JPY and withdraw through that route.  3 million EUR (~4 million USD) is leaving each month via SEPA.  JPY comes in addition to this, and is likely more.  At the same time the order book (bids) doesn't seem to shrink much.  This fascinates me.  It should be possible to empty MtGox in four months on EUR withdrawals alone, and much less when you add JPY.  Either new deposits are coming in, or there are a lot of balance on MtGox which is not currently visible in bids.  Same thing probably for asks.

Sjå https://bitmynt.no for veksling av bitcoin mot norske kroner.  Trygt, billig, raskt og enkelt sidan 2010.
I buy with EUR and other currencies at a fair market price when you want to sell.  See http://bitmynt.no/eurprice.pl
Warning: "Bitcoin" XT, Classic, Unlimited and the likes are scams. Don't use them, and don't listen to their shills.
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October 17, 2013, 08:28:19 AM
 #1949

People who think to make a profit wire BTC to MtGox and sell there. This gives MtGox a steady supply of BTC. And they will hold your cash for 6-8 weeks before a payout (at least in EUR).
The SEPA queue is just below 5 weeks now.  Don't think it has been up to 6, at least not since June.

Sjå https://bitmynt.no for veksling av bitcoin mot norske kroner.  Trygt, billig, raskt og enkelt sidan 2010.
I buy with EUR and other currencies at a fair market price when you want to sell.  See http://bitmynt.no/eurprice.pl
Warning: "Bitcoin" XT, Classic, Unlimited and the likes are scams. Don't use them, and don't listen to their shills.
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October 17, 2013, 08:41:38 AM
 #1950

How about you show us a screenshot instead of just saying "i received my withdrawal".
Is an edited screenshot worth more than my word?  I obviously have to edit out all personal information, and while I'm at it I may edit anything.  Which I will be accused of anyway, so I'm not going to bother.  Either you trust me or you don't.  I am buying btw (EUR or USD, price here).

Sjå https://bitmynt.no for veksling av bitcoin mot norske kroner.  Trygt, billig, raskt og enkelt sidan 2010.
I buy with EUR and other currencies at a fair market price when you want to sell.  See http://bitmynt.no/eurprice.pl
Warning: "Bitcoin" XT, Classic, Unlimited and the likes are scams. Don't use them, and don't listen to their shills.
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October 17, 2013, 08:48:57 AM
 #1951

Its official no money to leave US after Nov.17th. Deposit will you can.

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October 17, 2013, 09:15:47 AM
 #1952

Its official no money to leave US after Nov.17th. Deposit will you can.



What about other account types and other banks?


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October 17, 2013, 09:23:21 AM
 #1953

Suing a company for keeping to their own ToS which the user accepted?  Only in America..
Actually, in every civilised country you can't "write just anything" in a contract.
Illegal is illegal is illegal, doesn't matter if it's written down in a piece of signed paper.
Or are you suggesting that you really believe that if you sign a contract which says you should murder someone, that contract is valid?
True, but i doubt "user pays fees to third parties" is illegal.  To murder someone is illegal under most circumstances.  To pay a fee is not.  If paying fees is illegal, you may have a case against all Bitcoin exchanges and most banks as well.
"You doubt"?
What are you talking about?
It's a violation of what's called the "pre-existing duty rule" in contract law. If you're in the US, you paid the 5%, and got your money, you can sue in Delaware Small Claims Court and try to get the 5% back.

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October 17, 2013, 09:27:48 AM
 #1954

Its official no money to leave US after Nov.17th. Deposit will you can.



What about other account types and other banks?
Cant imagine they will discriminate one bank.
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October 17, 2013, 09:29:26 AM
 #1955

Its official no money to leave US after Nov.17th. Deposit will you can.

 - snip - scan of doc from Chase -

Yup.  Capital controls.  Now I remember another big reason why Bitcoin grabbed my attention so forcefully back in 2011.

  http://iranian.com/posts/view/post/22646

I have to take exception with this article's:

  "The bottom line is that banks think your money is their money and..."

The reason that banks think that is because it is true.  Technically and legally.

Banks can use the money that the depositors gave them in more or less any way the see fit though they have to abide by certain restrictions.  The reason Glass-Stegall was repealed was to relax those restrictions so they could gamble depositor's funds on derivatives at 50-1 leverage and such through their investment banking wing.

Worse yet, as I understand things (potentially tinfoil-hat things but maybe not) the derivatives counter-parties are top tier creditors and get made whole before bank depositors in the event of a bankruptcy.  The rational is that it halt a chain reaction of institutional failures...or so the story goes.

I've also heard that the way 'they' will get around the FDIC issue is to convert deposits into shares in the bank (as a non-option.)  Then FDIC is under no obligation to save the 'investors' as the bank craters.

Who knows how much truth there is to this stuff.  It seems entirely possible to me, however, and I actually have more confidence in Bitcoin than I do in my bank deposits and I hold more value in Bitcoin than I do in banks at this point.  By a wide margin (though in fairness this is primarily attributable to the rise in BTC valuations.)


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October 17, 2013, 12:58:05 PM
 #1956

Suing a company for keeping to their own ToS which the user accepted?  Only in America..
Actually, in every civilised country you can't "write just anything" in a contract.
Illegal is illegal is illegal, doesn't matter if it's written down in a piece of signed paper.
Or are you suggesting that you really believe that if you sign a contract which says you should murder someone, that contract is valid?
True, but i doubt "user pays fees to third parties" is illegal.  To murder someone is illegal under most circumstances.  To pay a fee is not.  If paying fees is illegal, you may have a case against all Bitcoin exchanges and most banks as well.
"You doubt"?
What are you talking about?
I doubt it is illegal to place third party fees (e.g. bank fees) on the user requesting the withdrawal.  Does your bank cover all intermediate bank fees for you when doing international transfers?  The ToS agreement is between you and MtGox in Japan, btw.  Not MtGox in Delaware or Poland or whatever.

Sjå https://bitmynt.no for veksling av bitcoin mot norske kroner.  Trygt, billig, raskt og enkelt sidan 2010.
I buy with EUR and other currencies at a fair market price when you want to sell.  See http://bitmynt.no/eurprice.pl
Warning: "Bitcoin" XT, Classic, Unlimited and the likes are scams. Don't use them, and don't listen to their shills.
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October 17, 2013, 01:00:31 PM
 #1957

Its official no money to leave US after Nov.17th. Deposit will you can.


There is a misspelling in the letter.  It says "Thank you for using Chase" where it should say "Fuck you for using Chase".

Sjå https://bitmynt.no for veksling av bitcoin mot norske kroner.  Trygt, billig, raskt og enkelt sidan 2010.
I buy with EUR and other currencies at a fair market price when you want to sell.  See http://bitmynt.no/eurprice.pl
Warning: "Bitcoin" XT, Classic, Unlimited and the likes are scams. Don't use them, and don't listen to their shills.
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October 17, 2013, 01:05:07 PM
 #1958

Its official no money to leave US after Nov.17th. Deposit will you can.


There is a misspelling in the letter.  It says "Thank you for using Chase" where it should say "Fuck you for using Chase".
lol.

Does this ban affect all accounts, or business accounts are exempt?

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October 17, 2013, 03:59:24 PM
 #1959

Its official no money to leave US after Nov.17th. Deposit will you can.


There is a misspelling in the letter.  It says "Thank you for using Chase" where it should say "Fuck you for using Chase".
lol.

Does this ban affect all accounts, or business accounts are exempt?


Just two types of their entry level business accounts.

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October 17, 2013, 05:10:52 PM
 #1960

Its official no money to leave US after Nov.17th. Deposit will you can.


There is a misspelling in the letter.  It says "Thank you for using Chase" where it should say "Fuck you for using Chase".
lol.

Does this ban affect all accounts, or business accounts are exempt?


Just two types of their entry level business accounts.


That was my thinking, that they are doing this to cut costs (potentially driven by new compliance requirements).

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