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Author Topic: MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]  (Read 857233 times)
sturle
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October 09, 2013, 07:15:57 PM
 #1761

2. You are comparing apples and bicycles.  On some exchanges all the volume is counted as USD.  MtGox has a working multi-currency exchange.  This is their main feature.  If you deposit EUR and buy or sell and withdraw EUR, the trade will be reported as EUR.  Some other exchanges (noteably Bitstamp) will report this as USD.
2. I did not know Bitstamp aggregated all currencies and quoted them as dollar exchange volumes,  I though they just traded dollars again apologies.
Sturle, I respect your opinion on a lot of things even though I disagree with it but not on this one. My humble opinion is that this statement is just utterly stupid.

Bitstamp has the USD/BTC currency pair. That's it. You can only trade USD against BTC there.
I know.  This is their biggest shortcoming.  They should really do something about it.  Now there is an extra conversion fee of 0.4% to deposit or withdraw EUR, and in addition to this there is the uncertainty of the USD value. :-(

Quote
This is why all their volume is obviously counted as USD.[/b] This also means that Bitstamp comes out on top if we compare Bitstamp's USD volume with MtGox's USD volume right now (16,808 BTC traded in USD at Bitstamp today, 9,314 at MtGox).
Yes, but I am sure you understand this is a meaningless comparision.  You compare one exchanges total volume to another exchange's volume in one single currency.  This is extra pointless now that people are getting out of USD for obvious reasons.

Quote
What Sturle is trying to argue is this:

If you deposit EUR to Bitstamp then that money is automatically converted to USD. It is therefore, correctly, counted as USD when you trade the USD now in your Bitstamp account for Bitcoins. Sturle seems to think that Bitstamp should report USD which has previously been EUR as EUR because that somehow makes sense to him. I think that would make zero sense.
No, I never wrote that.  I do not think Bitstamp should report in any other way.  Just that people should keep this in mind when comparing volumes.  Bitstamp's USD volume is artificuially inflated by the way the exchange works, while MtGox report actual volume in all currencies separately.

Quote
I have a bank account in Sweden. It's got SEK in it. My deposits to Bitstamp goes like this: I enter the amount of EUR I want to send using SEPA. The SEK in my account is then converted to EUR and sent to Bitstamp. Bitstamp then converts it to USD and deposits it in my account at Bitstamp. So what is in my Bitstamp account when my funds arrive? SEK? EUR? No, it's USD that ends up in my account. I can then send that USD out with an international wire or request a SEPA transfer and have that USD converted to EUR and then SEK. (if anyone is wondering, sending SEK ends up costing me 0.1 on the USD/SEK rate, if USD/SEK is 6.47 then I'd end up with an efficient rate at 6.57 and that's what I'd consider the cost/rate of my USD in my spreadsheet).
Yep.  Bitstamp's failure to implement proper multi-currency trading is quite expensive for their customers.  (The SEK/EUR conversion rate you get in your bank is bad, btw.  I'm sure you can find a cheaper one.)  And you are forced to keep your assets in USD or BTC, and have nowhere to run if you expect BTC to fall and USD to drop heavily on Monday morning.  Your only rescue is to buy BTC and transfer your BTC to MtGox to sell for another currency.

Quote
The way I see it: If you send something that ends up as USD in your Bitstamp account then USD is what you have in your Bitstamp account and it is not at all relevant if this money was in the form of JPY, SEK, EUR, NOK, gold, rocks or leaves before it ended up as USD. USD is what you have at Bitstamp and USD is what you trade at Bitstamp and USD volume is what it will and will be counted as.
Of course.  But I hope you agree that comparing USD volume on Bitstamp with the USD volume of an exchange where you can trade BTC against multiple currencies is completely meaningless.  You are comparing total volume with an arbitrary share of the total volume.  Comparing Bitstamp USD volume with MtGox USD volume is equivalent with comparing Bitstamp USD volume with MtGox JPY volume or MtGox SEK volume.

Sjå https://bitmynt.no for veksling av bitcoin mot norske kroner.  Trygt, billig, raskt og enkelt sidan 2010.
I buy with EUR and other currencies at a fair market price when you want to sell.  See http://bitmynt.no/eurprice.pl
Warning: "Bitcoin" XT, Classic, Unlimited and the likes are scams. Don't use them, and don't listen to their shills.
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mp420
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October 09, 2013, 07:22:28 PM
 #1762

No, I never wrote that.  I do not think Bitstamp should report in any other way.  Just that people should keep this in mind when comparing volumes.  Bitstamp's USD volume is artificuially inflated by the way the exchange works, while MtGox report actual volume in all currencies separately.

To be fair, MtGox volume is somewhat artificially inflated by customers converting their USD to EUR or JPY via BTC in order to be able to withdraw the fiat. Many people are stuck at Gox with GoxUSD because it seemed like a good idea at the time (for example I believed USD to be a more stable currency than EUR, which is why I sold my BTC for USD instead of EUR).
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October 09, 2013, 07:30:09 PM
 #1763

http://bitcoinity.org/markets/list?currency=USD&span=24h shows you the total USD volume at all exchanges (well, all the ones Bitcoinity counts, anyway).

What are you missing?
Pie charts and area graphs.
trdiablo
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October 09, 2013, 07:39:44 PM
 #1764

BitStamp :
Withdrawn (SEPA) $376.37 on Sept. 29, 2013, 10:23 a.m., received 276,82€ at my bank on 02/10/2013. (4 work days)

MtGox :
Withdrawn (SEPA) 307.60000 € on 2013/09/29 10:23:21, received 304,52€ at my bank on 08/10/2013 (through Mt. Gox Poland Inc.). (8 work days)


This can not be true. I e-mailed them today asking for when they would process my withdrawal and they said I have to wait at least another 3 weeks. How is it possible that you are paid within 8 work days while everyone else has to wait 30+ business days?
justusranvier
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October 09, 2013, 08:09:15 PM
 #1765


That's a great start. An area chart that showed how the fractions have changed over time would mean we could have meaningful conversations about trends.
Alpaca Bob
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October 09, 2013, 08:49:48 PM
 #1766


That's a great start. An area chart that showed how the fractions have changed over time would mean we could have meaningful conversations about trends.

Perhaps this helps.

http://data.bitcoinity.org/#caaabbdgba

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sturle
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October 09, 2013, 09:47:25 PM
 #1767

I know.  This is their biggest shortcoming.  They should really do something about it.  Now there is an extra conversion fee of 0.4% to deposit or withdraw EUR, and in addition to this there is the uncertainty of the USD value. :-(
I did not know the fee was 0.4%, I only take what goes out in SEK and what I get in USD and calculate the real/efficient rate i get. And it's pretty much always +0.1 on the USD/SEK rate.
If you transfer 10 EUR to Bitstamp right now, you get 13.508, and if you withdraw 13.508 USD you get 9.9192 EUR according to the rates published in their API.  I.e. just over 0.4% spread.  My bank has half this spread for currency conversion in international or SEPA wires.  (Some banks, e.g. Scandiabanken have terrible currency conversion rates.  Beware!)  I have an EUR denominated account as well to avoid the currency conversion when trading in EUR.  E.g. when doing arbitrage from MtGox.

Quote
I see your point. The scary thing for those using MtGox is that Bitstamp seems to come out on top even if you take total MtGox volume vs Bitstamp volume these days. It will, of course, be more meaningful to say Bitstamp is #1 if this trend stays and it looks like that on the 30d, not just 1d or 3d periods. The trend seems to be pretty clear here - but that would of course change the instant MtGox starts doing withdraws - or would it? I mean, I can pay 0.6% (or maby 0.5% or something if I started using it) at MtGox or 0.34% at Bitstamp (or 0.08% at BFX and 0.35% at Bitstamp). MtGox has higher withdraw fees. And so on.
I just had a look at http://data.bitcoinity.org/#caaaabcfba.  MtGox is on top of all listed periods except for 3d (Bitstamp on top) and 10m (btcchina on top when I checked).

BitStamp :
Withdrawn (SEPA) $376.37 on Sept. 29, 2013, 10:23 a.m., received 276,82€ at my bank on 02/10/2013. (4 work days)

MtGox :
Withdrawn (SEPA) 307.60000 € on 2013/09/29 10:23:21, received 304,52€ at my bank on 08/10/2013 (through Mt. Gox Poland Inc.). (8 work days)
This can not be true. I e-mailed them today asking for when they would process my withdrawal and they said I have to wait at least another 3 weeks. How is it possible that you are paid within 8 work days while everyone else has to wait 30+ business days?
Actually, it can be true. It has long been known that small amounts are processed a whole lot faster than big amounts.

So you got €307 out in a timely fashion? I'm curious as to why you'd even bother sending such a "huge" amount around in the first place. Confirm that 10k EUR or at least something larger than 1k EUR comes after 8 work days and you'll get my attention.
When I asked for the latest SEPA delay numbers today, I was told I couldn't get them until Monday because of ... good news.  I don't know what the good news are, but expect them to be about withdrawals.  I didn't get an exact date for the news to be released either.  As far as I understand they are about to take the very last step to something big, and have delayed other news and upgrades until this is finished.  People aren't going to regard any news as positive unless they deliver faster withdrawals, so there is no point in releasing any until this problem is fixed.

Sjå https://bitmynt.no for veksling av bitcoin mot norske kroner.  Trygt, billig, raskt og enkelt sidan 2010.
I buy with EUR and other currencies at a fair market price when you want to sell.  See http://bitmynt.no/eurprice.pl
Warning: "Bitcoin" XT, Classic, Unlimited and the likes are scams. Don't use them, and don't listen to their shills.
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October 09, 2013, 10:06:33 PM
 #1768

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It has long been known that small amounts are processed a whole lot faster than big amounts.
That just screams "they're broke".
BlueTemplar
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October 09, 2013, 10:11:41 PM
 #1769

Note that my order was twice slower (both for MtGox and Bitstamp) than in July.

So you got €307 out in a timely fashion? I'm curious as to why you'd even bother sending such a "huge" amount around in the first place. Confirm that 10k EUR or at least something larger than 1k EUR comes after 8 work days and you'll get my attention.
Because I needed some money and Bitcoin is the most "liquid" of the "investments" that I own? (And that's actually 581.34€ since I used both exchanges.)
Sorry, I don't expect to be needing such a big sum anytime soon and can't be bothered to transfer it back-and-forth just for experiment's sake...
sturle
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October 09, 2013, 10:15:19 PM
 #1770

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It has long been known that small amounts are processed a whole lot faster than big amounts.
That just screams "they're broke".
No, the only logical explanation has been posted in this thread about 20 times.  They have a daily qouta in their bank, a specific daily amount, in outgoing SEPA transfers.  Instead of letting a portion of their quota be unused every day, they fill the holes with small amounts when they can no longer fit the next transfer in queue.  If the next transfer in queue is 7k EUR, and they only have 5k left on their daily quota, they start grabbing smaller transfers from the queue until the quota until it is completely filled.  This is a sign of MtGox trying to pay as much as possible, which they wouldn't do if they were broke.  (And please read previous postings before asking about the quota – the subject has been thoroughly discussed, someone called their bank and got it from them as well, etc.)

Sjå https://bitmynt.no for veksling av bitcoin mot norske kroner.  Trygt, billig, raskt og enkelt sidan 2010.
I buy with EUR and other currencies at a fair market price when you want to sell.  See http://bitmynt.no/eurprice.pl
Warning: "Bitcoin" XT, Classic, Unlimited and the likes are scams. Don't use them, and don't listen to their shills.
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October 09, 2013, 10:19:21 PM
 #1771

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It has long been known that small amounts are processed a whole lot faster than big amounts.
That just screams "they're broke".

No, it's just that the bigger the amount, the more overwhelmed is the poor guy processing the withdrawals. You know, longer numbers have more figures and it takes more time to type them.

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October 09, 2013, 10:20:45 PM
 #1772

I haven't been following this thread closely, so I apologize in advance it has been mentioned in recent pages.

Is there any indication that USD international wires (without the 5% fee) are being processed at all?  If so, what request date is the queue up to?

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leoragraves666
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October 09, 2013, 10:23:31 PM
 #1773

4000 euro withdraw, 4 weeks waiting now

PC & Mac repairs
Rampion
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October 09, 2013, 10:24:27 PM
 #1774

Quote
It has long been known that small amounts are processed a whole lot faster than big amounts.
That just screams "they're broke".
No, the only logical explanation has been posted in this thread about 20 times.  They have a daily qouta in their bank, a specific daily amount, in outgoing SEPA transfers.  Instead of letting a portion of their quota be unused every day, they fill the holes with small amounts when they can no longer fit the next transfer in queue.  If the next transfer in queue is 7k EUR, and they only have 5k left on their daily quota, they start grabbing smaller transfers from the queue until the quota until it is completely filled.  This is a sign of MtGox trying to pay as much as possible, which they wouldn't do if they were broke.  (And please read previous postings before asking about the quota – the subject has been thoroughly discussed, someone called their bank and got it from them as well, etc.)

If they have a daily quota which is not enough they just raise it, as any other business in the world would do. Not all banks have problems with BTC, they can open multiple accounts in different banks, the fact is if you have the money you can certainly find a solution to operate smoothly with it in a few weeks - and months have passed.

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October 09, 2013, 10:36:06 PM
 #1775

Perfect.

The last 30 day graph shows that Mt Gox is losing more relative market share to btcchina than Bitstamp.
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October 10, 2013, 12:16:17 AM
 #1776


If they have a daily quota which is not enough they just raise it, as any other business in the world would do. Not all banks have problems with BTC, they can open multiple accounts in different banks, the fact is if you have the money you can certainly find a solution to operate smoothly with it in a few weeks - and months have passed.

One pattern that seems to have repeated itself over and over is that a Bitcoin exchange gets a smooth operation going with some bank (or money service business) and things chip along for a few weeks, then Bam!  Something happened at the bank level and the bank no longer wishes to be a partner.  What that something is is an open question.  Financial regulations are likely factor.  Anyway, the pattern has been observed for several years now, and a lot of exchanges have been shuttered seemingly because of it.


pand70
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October 10, 2013, 12:25:48 AM
 #1777

One pattern that seems to have repeated itself over and over is that a Bitcoin exchange gets a smooth operation going with some bank (or money service business) and things chip along for a few weeks, then Bam!

Do i smell conspiracy?  Cool
In any case an exchange has to plan ahead and take those risks into account. I mean they are doing that business for so long now to not be able to manage the same problems over and over...

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October 10, 2013, 12:40:44 AM
 #1778

1000 USD withdrawal, still pending since last month..

tvbcof
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October 10, 2013, 12:45:24 AM
 #1779

One pattern that seems to have repeated itself over and over is that a Bitcoin exchange gets a smooth operation going with some bank (or money service business) and things chip along for a few weeks, then Bam!

Do i smell conspiracy?  Cool
In any case an exchange has to plan ahead and take those risks into account. I mean they are doing that business for so long now to not be able to manage the same problems over and over...

There is such a thing as an intractable problem, and there are only so many banks in the world.  Thankfully when Tradehill finally hammered up the plywood they did not walk off with my money.  I hope the same holds for Mt. Gox if it comes to that.

To answer your question, ya, I would consider the problems that Bitcoin exchanges (of a certain size) have with mainstream financial institutions to be almost certainly the result of a 'conspiracy' (using the word in a formal way.)  The main question in my mind is mostly how much of the pressure is a result of conspiring within the closed financial services system and how much is from within state sponsored regulatory and political bodies.

---

One thing that Bitcoin has made crystal clear to me is how much 'my' fiat money is NOT my own.  My use of USD is significantly constrained and there are a plethora of things I am not allowed to use USD for which are perfectly legal.  Wikileaks, selling BTC, etc.  I knew intellectually that money issued by the federal reserve was never really mine, but this point has been driven home more concretely of late.


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October 10, 2013, 12:56:30 AM
 #1780

That just screams "they're broke".

Why would MtGox not be broke?

Imho they are running out of Fiat.

Why would anyone transfer USD, EUR, JPY, ... to MtGox when you can buy Bitcoins at any other exchange for ~10% less?

MtGox has become a one-way street: Bitcoin in, USD/EUR out.

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