MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]

[Nagle]

Some of this information is very sensitive and some is useless.  E.g. oldest withdrawal in the queue. 

In the real world, there are settlement limits, which range from T+1 (one day after the trade) to T+5, depending on what's being traded.  When a broker/dealer fails to pay up within the time limit (it doesn't matter why) it's called a "failure to deliver", or a "fail".

In the US, fails have to be reported to the SEC, and the data is available. Penalties have to be paid when that happens.

Fails to deliver cash to customers are more serious. That results in a broker being closed down within days. Historically, financial scams come unglued when the scammer fails to deliver.

[1714198067]

1714198067

[1714198067]

1714198067

[1714198067]

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[davidspitzer]

I just posed this question to MTGOX. I will either get a cogent answer, a form answer or the vengeful scorn or MTGOX. I hope they are forthcoming - Whatever the reply is I will update you to what I find out.

"I run a legal Blog (BTCLAG.org) and a lot of my readers have asked me what I know about the seemingly extraordinary Lag in getting USD out of MTGOX. I replied to them "I don't know, let me me try it out" So I sold (1) one bitcoin on the 20 of August and transferred the resulting USD balance to my confirmed US checking account linked to my MTGOX account. It is now 20 days later. So my question is what is up? I am not a banking expert but wire transfers are all automated through computers so I don't really understand the standing explanation of backup, as it would infer  that the banks are unable to process an increased volume from just your small percentage of transactions, but seamlessly process Billions of other transactions from other sources in just a few days. I have heard whispering of floating cash after your seizure by the US government. There is also eroding consumer confidence due to your alleged two week hiatus to improve USD cash withdrawal times which to many outside observers was merely a cash hold out to compensate for the account confiscation by the US Government. I am actually a big supporter of your service and hope that you can sort these issues out, but the huge price spread for btc on your site as compared to every other exchange would anecdotally indicate that people are cashing out their cash positions and buying and moving BTC to other sites, which is artificially creating a demand bubble on MTGOX for BTC. I humbly suggest that you will need to be more transparent with your situation as the Bitcoin community is a fairly saavy and impatient group as a whole, who will simply move their business elsewhere"

[S3052]

Some of this information is very sensitive and some is useless.  E.g. oldest withdrawal in the queue.

In the real world, there are settlement limits, which range from T+1 (one day after the trade) to T+5, depending on what's being traded.  When a broker/dealer fails to pay up within the time limit (it doesn't matter why) it's called a "failure to deliver", or a "fail".

In the US, fails have to be reported to the SEC, and the data is available. Penalties have to be paid when that happens.

Fails to deliver cash to customers are more serious. That results in a broker being closed down within days. Historically, financial scams come unglued when the scammer fails to deliver.

that's great background.

the only way that MtGox will change their behavior would be if most customers would leave them completely, trading volume falls below 1000 and then 100 BTC per day...
but as long as so many people keep their funds there, they can carry on with this nontransparent communication

[User705]

They were sitting on a golden egg being the leading exchange on the most speculative market since Dutch Tulips.

...

So yes, this is bad for Bitcoin and Gox and us the costumers with trading accounts. However Gox is not e-gold and in the case that Mark Kapels and the rest of the gang gets arrested and Gox shut down, our assets won't disappear, as was the case with e-gold as the exchange and the currency was one single entity, both found to be illegal.

We will have the same joint civil suit  rights as if we have dealt with any other private business. So if they are charged with not compliance to AML or other stuff, legit verified customers will have no trouble documenting their balances and claim compensation. This is very clear cut case compared to the Trendon Shavers mess. Gox also have some high profiled traders and investors that have money to burn on lawyers, another benefit for the small creditor if it ends like this.

You got two contradictory statements there.  Aren't all btc and fiat balances in mtgox and not outside of it?  They are at least 5 million usd short from USA seizures.  Add in legal costs and other costs.  Also if they are insolvent/BK you'd have nothing just like any other business failure and there is no FDIC or SIPC deposit insurance.

[davidspitzer]

I think the safe and simple solution for now until MTGOX sorts out their issues or makes a definitive statement as to the real reason for the delays is to cash out your USD position at MTGOX for BTC and move the BTC back to your private wallet.

Given the inflated price of BTC at MTGOX, this is most likely what people are doing right now.

[solex]

I think the safe and simple solution for now until MTGOX sorts out their issues or makes a definitive statement as to the real reason for the delays is to cash out your USD position at MTGOX for BTC and move the BTC back to your private wallet.

Given the inflated price of BTC at MTGOX, this is most likely what people are doing right now.

Correct. I was a fan of MtGox for a long time, but I have completely stopped using them until they are fully back to normal.

Anyone who loses fiat or btc if MtGox goes down cannot possibly cry on this forum because they have had ample warning with hundreds of posts on bitcointalk, facebook, reddit and elsewhere for months. MtGox is in a fight for survival against the DHS/Fincen/bankster complex and no one knows the final result.

[smoothie]

I think the safe and simple solution for now until MTGOX sorts out their issues or makes a definitive statement as to the real reason for the delays is to cash out your USD position at MTGOX for BTC and move the BTC back to your private wallet.

Given the inflated price of BTC at MTGOX, this is most likely what people are doing right now.

Correct. I was a fan of MtGox for a long time, but I have completely stopped using them until they are fully back to normal.

Anyone who loses fiat or btc if MtGox goes down cannot possibly cry on this forum because they have had ample warning with hundreds of posts on bitcointalk, facebook, reddit and elsewhere for months. MtGox is in a fight for survival against the DHS/Fincen/bankster complex and no one knows the final result.

It is close to two months later since I decided to do what David suggests in his post above.

From what I can tell not much has changed in those two months (now nearly 3 months since withdrawals were first suspended in mid June).

At what point do you say to yourself ...."that is long enough, I want out of gox (buy bitcoins)"?.

[Syke]

I traded one Bitcoin three weeks ago and initiated a international money transferred to my bank in the US I have not seen hide nor hair of it

3 weeks? The withdrawl queue is nearly 3 months deep by now.

[davidspitzer]

I traded one Bitcoin three weeks ago and initiated a international money transferred to my bank in the US I have not seen hide nor hair of it

3 weeks? The withdrawl queue is nearly 3 months deep by now.

How is that even possible unless they are simply holding the deposit because if a lack of funds. Pony express could transfer money faster than this

If there are people truly waiting for 3 months. Than mtgox should be abandoned for US customers for now

[Energizer]

I've been waiting for my USD withdraw to USA for exactly 27 days. I've just submitted a new support ticket today. Will update you whenever I receive my transfer.

[tvbcof]

I traded one Bitcoin three weeks ago and initiated a international money transferred to my bank in the US I have not seen hide nor hair of it

3 weeks? The withdrawl queue is nearly 3 months deep by now.

How is that even possible unless they are simply holding the deposit because if a lack of funds. Pony express could transfer money faster than this

If there are people truly waiting for 3 months. Than mtgox should be abandoned for US customers for now

At this point I'm planning to let my request ride indefinitely.  I figure that it will provide an opportunity to participate in legal action against whoever it is that has cause me financial loss or at least give me a legitimate reason to attempt to enlist the support of my representative (who happens to be no friend of Wall Street.)  My sense is that Mt. Gox is likely minimally culpable and I do hope that legal action will help flush out the players who are actively interfering with the exchange aspect of the Bitcoin economy.  If anything comes of such an effort (if it is undertaken at all) then it likely won't bear fruit for years, but I am anticipating a backlash against the US government spying and the programs which induce financial abuse could get caught up in the mix.  Obviously if I needed the money this would not be an option.

[Rampion]

When my multiple SEPA withdrawals cleared in just 2 days (July) I reported it, and I received a lot of heat as some said I was lying... But I was not.

On the contrary, my last single SEPA withdrawal was requested on Friday, 23th August and it's still "confirmed" 18 days later. The "up to 2 weeks" looks like BS, and it looks to me that the SEPA queue is is not getting shorter at all.

If there's was any way to move fiat fast from MtGox (SEPA, JPY, whatever) we wouldn't have a 10% premium on Gox, arbitrageours would take care of that spread. But they are not, just because they cannot.

[sturle]

Some of this information is very sensitive and some is useless.  E.g. oldest withdrawal in the queue.  If you intentionally DDoS the withdrawal queue by doing many small withdrawals instead of one large, you are placed far back in the queue every time a withdrawal is processed.  This is only fair.  Some of this is very market sensitive.  E.g. total deposits.  (Which are in many different currencies, btw, not just USD.)  They should not publish this, and if they did it would mean instant death as an exchange.  Large investors must depend on MtGox not publishing those numbers.  MtGox has very a very strict privacy policy as well.  It is important to ensure that no private information can leak out.  I can't see any other exchanges publish those numbers either.

The only important number to most people is how long they have to wait for their money if they withdraw today, and how the queue is organized.  I have provided the know figures in this thread.  It is collected from various sources, and I wish MtGox would make similar information available.

I disagree. I do not see anything wrong with aggregate data transparency as other financial institutions do this already.  So, what is your logical rationale for instant death an an exchange providing such figures?  

If I want to buy 30k BTC, MtGox is the only exchange where i can do that at a reasonable price.  I would transfer 5 mill USD to MtGox to make mu purchase.  If it became known to other players that someone just transferred 5 mill USD to MtGox, they would make sure to buy first.  So MtGox would be useless for this purchase if they were that transparent.  I would go to one of the less transparent exchanges (i.e. ANY other excahnge) instead.  So would all other large players.  MtGox would lose their large players and die in a few days.

[sturle]

Some of this information is very sensitive and some is useless.  E.g. oldest withdrawal in the queue. 

In the real world, there are settlement limits, which range from T+1 (one day after the trade) to T+5, depending on what's being traded.  When a broker/dealer fails to pay up within the time limit (it doesn't matter why) it's called a "failure to deliver", or a "fail".

In the US, fails have to be reported to the SEC, and the data is available. Penalties have to be paid when that happens.

Fails to deliver cash to customers are more serious. That results in a broker being closed down within days. Historically, financial scams come unglued when the scammer fails to deliver.

MtGox is not a broker, and not in the USSA.

[Rampion]

Some of this information is very sensitive and some is useless.  E.g. oldest withdrawal in the queue.  If you intentionally DDoS the withdrawal queue by doing many small withdrawals instead of one large, you are placed far back in the queue every time a withdrawal is processed.  This is only fair.  Some of this is very market sensitive.  E.g. total deposits.  (Which are in many different currencies, btw, not just USD.)  They should not publish this, and if they did it would mean instant death as an exchange.  Large investors must depend on MtGox not publishing those numbers.  MtGox has very a very strict privacy policy as well.  It is important to ensure that no private information can leak out.  I can't see any other exchanges publish those numbers either.

The only important number to most people is how long they have to wait for their money if they withdraw today, and how the queue is organized.  I have provided the know figures in this thread.  It is collected from various sources, and I wish MtGox would make similar information available.

I disagree. I do not see anything wrong with aggregate data transparency as other financial institutions do this already.  So, what is your logical rationale for instant death an an exchange providing such figures?  

If I want to buy 30k BTC, MtGox is the only exchange where i can do that at a reasonable price.  I would transfer 5 mill USD to MtGox to make mu purchase.  If it became known to other players that someone just transferred 5 mill USD to MtGox, they would make sure to buy first.  So MtGox would be useless for this purchase if they were that transparent.  I would go to one of the less transparent exchanges (i.e. ANY other excahnge) instead.  So would all other large players.  MtGox would lose their large players and die in a few days.

They do not have to announce that someone just transferred 5 mill USD, that's retarded and useless. They could just publish a monthly or quarterly report with the aggregate figures to prove their solvency.

Keeping silent or giving bullshit excuses ("we are overwhelming the biggest bank in Japan with our volume") its hurting BTC.

[sturle]

I am not a banking expert but wire transfers are all automated through computers so I don't really understand the standing explanation of backup

You should read some of the statements from Japanese users here on the forum.  Japanese banks are still very manual and paper based.  Much like the well known Japanese bureaucracy.  One of the most common complaints are limitations to international transfers.  International transfers have been checked and acked manually in all banks I have used, and I have done all my banking online since 1997.  While national transfers are fully automated and processed instantly, it can take several minutes to hours from I issue an international transfer until it is processed by the bank, and it will only be processed during working hours.

The largest problem for their banks are transfers coming in return due to wrong information or lack of information.  E.g. wrong name on the account (often people trying to work around AML).  All those cases have to be handled manually, and some of them involve a lot of work for the bank and for MtGox.  MtGox processed thousands of small wires daily, and the returns alone provided full employment for many clerks in their bank until their bank said stop.

Remember up to the current situation the following happened:

• Redeemable codes discontinued on request from US regulators.
• LR and AurumExchange (several e-currencies) closed.
• OKPay stopped working with Bitcoin exchanges.
• DHS deemed the Dwolla route a threat to US homeland security.

This left international wire transfer as the only option for more than 200,000 users.  At the same time many other exchanges have become thee victims of uncooperative banks and closed accounts due to legal issues, leaving MtGox's banking options severely limited.

[sturle]

I think the safe and simple solution for now until MTGOX sorts out their issues or makes a definitive statement as to the real reason for the delays is to cash out your USD position at MTGOX for BTC and move the BTC back to your private wallet.

My last withdrawal went fine, FYI.  Please do as davidspitzer suggests, as it will allow me and davidspitzer here to do more profitable arbitrage between MtGox and other exchanges.

[Rampion]

I think the safe and simple solution for now until MTGOX sorts out their issues or makes a definitive statement as to the real reason for the delays is to cash out your USD position at MTGOX for BTC and move the BTC back to your private wallet.

My last withdrawal went fine, FYI.  Please do as davidspitzer suggests, as it will allow me and davidspitzer here to do more profitable arbitrage between MtGox and other exchanges.

You really succeeded in arbitrage? I tried, but the money comes too slow.

[sturle]

When my multiple SEPA withdrawals cleared in just 2 days (July) I reported it, and I received a lot of heat as some said I was lying... But I was not.

On the contrary, my last single SEPA withdrawal was requested on Friday, 23th August and it's still "confirmed" 18 days later. The "up to 2 weeks" looks like BS, and it looks to me that the SEPA queue is is not getting shorter at all.

When did you receive your last withdrawal?  It seems the SEPA queue (esp. the long queue) is getting longer again.  I guess people have dicovered SEPA was very fast for a while.

[sturle]

You really succeeded in arbitrage? I tried, but the money comes too slow.

What do you mean by money coming too slow?  You have to keep money on other exchanges and BTC on MtGox at the same time, so you can do the trades at the same time.  If you can't do both trades at the same time, you are doing arbitrage wrong.