MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]

[Nagle]

MtGox are very careful of what they say in public due to the ongoing case with the DHS and the process with FinCen.  It is a delicate situation.  I am sure relevant government representatives get all the information they request. 

Sounds like a statement from a PR agency.

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[prophetx]

MtGox are very careful of what they say in public due to the ongoing case with the DHS and the process with FinCen.  It is a delicate situation.  I am sure relevant government representatives get all the information they request. 

Sounds like a statement from a PR agency.

At this point why don't the current owners just sell the company to some new people so they can move on and work on other things.  The new guys can deal with the US gov't and bang their head against a wall all day long.  There are people in the world who are masochistic enough for this task.

The current owners did some things that appear were intended to evade compliance with US laws and/or regulations, whether one agrees with these or not at this point does not matter.  Most likely like as was the case with Square in Florida they, the corporation, will have to pay a bunch of fines. 

IF things get resolved at the federal level then they will have state AG's lining up to slap 6+ figure fines for flouting state regulations.  We are talking about years, not weeks...

[calian]

At this point why don't the current owners just sell the company to some new people so they can move on and work on other things. 

They should sell to a broker/dealer offering forex transactions. Would solve all kinds of problems. Unfortunately there probably aren't that many who would bite. Does anyone know anybody at XE? They added XBT as a currency for watching a few months ago but haven't gone live with bitcoin trading yet. Just checked and they're still showing the MTGOX price no less.

[morningtime]

@sturle, the MtGox master shill:

My key point is:

Why would anyone transfer USD, EUR, JPY, ... to MtGox when you can buy Bitcoins at any other exchange for ~10% less?

People who think to make a profit wire BTC to MtGox and sell there. This gives MtGox a steady supply of BTC. And they will hold your cash for 6-8 weeks before a payout (at least in EUR).

[sturle]

31.4k BTC left at MtGox. 13.5 million USD left there. Why? Because BTC can leave while USD can't, that's why.

31.4k BTC (36.7k now) is what's left in asks in the order book, and this number decreases because people have been buying a lot of BTC lately.  You may have noticed the price increase.  When you buy BTC, the BTC you bought will disappear from the order book (the ask side) and go into your balance.  The total balance isn't public.  It is obvious that the amount in bids have increased as well.  It as below 11 million a week ago.  I doubt people have deposited 2.5 million USD to MtGox the last few days, so I guess this number is taken from public bids in the order book.  You probably know that people can keep an USD balance on MtGox without placing it all in public bids, so this is a sign of people shifting from selling BTC to buying BTC, which is typical for a rally.  You can see the same happening on all exchanges.

USD are leaving, just very very slowly.  USD is a convertible currency, and many people convert their USD to EUR or JPY and withdraw through that route.  3 million EUR (~4 million USD) is leaving each month via SEPA.  JPY comes in addition to this, and is likely more.  At the same time the order book (bids) doesn't seem to shrink much.  This fascinates me.  It should be possible to empty MtGox in four months on EUR withdrawals alone, and much less when you add JPY.  Either new deposits are coming in, or there are a lot of balance on MtGox which is not currently visible in bids.  Same thing probably for asks.

[sturle]

People who think to make a profit wire BTC to MtGox and sell there. This gives MtGox a steady supply of BTC. And they will hold your cash for 6-8 weeks before a payout (at least in EUR).

The SEPA queue is just below 5 weeks now.  Don't think it has been up to 6, at least not since June.

[sturle]

How about you show us a screenshot instead of just saying "i received my withdrawal".

Is an edited screenshot worth more than my word?  I obviously have to edit out all personal information, and while I'm at it I may edit anything.  Which I will be accused of anyway, so I'm not going to bother.  Either you trust me or you don't.  I am buying btw (EUR or USD, price here).

[manfred]

Its official no money to leave US after Nov.17^th. Deposit will you can.

[Erdogan]

Its official no money to leave US after Nov.17^th. Deposit will you can.

What about other account types and other banks?

[Lohoris]

Suing a company for keeping to their own ToS which the user accepted?  Only in America..

Actually, in every civilised country you can't "write just anything" in a contract.
Illegal is illegal is illegal, doesn't matter if it's written down in a piece of signed paper.
Or are you suggesting that you really believe that if you sign a contract which says you should murder someone, that contract is valid?

True, but i doubt "user pays fees to third parties" is illegal.  To murder someone is illegal under most circumstances.  To pay a fee is not.  If paying fees is illegal, you may have a case against all Bitcoin exchanges and most banks as well.

"You doubt"?
What are you talking about?

It's a violation of what's called the "pre-existing duty rule" in contract law. If you're in the US, you paid the 5%, and got your money, you can sue in Delaware Small Claims Court and try to get the 5% back.

[manfred]

Its official no money to leave US after Nov.17^th. Deposit will you can.

What about other account types and other banks?

Cant imagine they will discriminate one bank.

[tvbcof]

Its official no money to leave US after Nov.17^th. Deposit will you can.

 - snip - scan of doc from Chase -

Yup.  Capital controls.  Now I remember another big reason why Bitcoin grabbed my attention so forcefully back in 2011.

  http://iranian.com/posts/view/post/22646

I have to take exception with this article's:

  "The bottom line is that banks think your money is their money and..."

The reason that banks think that is because it is true.  Technically and legally.

Banks can use the money that the depositors gave them in more or less any way the see fit though they have to abide by certain restrictions.  The reason Glass-Stegall was repealed was to relax those restrictions so they could gamble depositor's funds on derivatives at 50-1 leverage and such through their investment banking wing.

Worse yet, as I understand things (potentially tinfoil-hat things but maybe not) the derivatives counter-parties are top tier creditors and get made whole before bank depositors in the event of a bankruptcy.  The rational is that it halt a chain reaction of institutional failures...or so the story goes.

I've also heard that the way 'they' will get around the FDIC issue is to convert deposits into shares in the bank (as a non-option.)  Then FDIC is under no obligation to save the 'investors' as the bank craters.

Who knows how much truth there is to this stuff.  It seems entirely possible to me, however, and I actually have more confidence in Bitcoin than I do in my bank deposits and I hold more value in Bitcoin than I do in banks at this point.  By a wide margin (though in fairness this is primarily attributable to the rise in BTC valuations.)

[sturle]

Suing a company for keeping to their own ToS which the user accepted?  Only in America..

Actually, in every civilised country you can't "write just anything" in a contract.
Illegal is illegal is illegal, doesn't matter if it's written down in a piece of signed paper.
Or are you suggesting that you really believe that if you sign a contract which says you should murder someone, that contract is valid?

True, but i doubt "user pays fees to third parties" is illegal.  To murder someone is illegal under most circumstances.  To pay a fee is not.  If paying fees is illegal, you may have a case against all Bitcoin exchanges and most banks as well.

"You doubt"?
What are you talking about?

I doubt it is illegal to place third party fees (e.g. bank fees) on the user requesting the withdrawal.  Does your bank cover all intermediate bank fees for you when doing international transfers?  The ToS agreement is between you and MtGox in Japan, btw.  Not MtGox in Delaware or Poland or whatever.

[sturle]

Its official no money to leave US after Nov.17^th. Deposit will you can.

There is a misspelling in the letter.  It says "Thank you for using Chase" where it should say "Fuck you for using Chase".

[Lohoris]

Its official no money to leave US after Nov.17^th. Deposit will you can.

There is a misspelling in the letter.  It says "Thank you for using Chase" where it should say "Fuck you for using Chase".

lol.

Does this ban affect all accounts, or business accounts are exempt?

[joesmoe2012]

Its official no money to leave US after Nov.17^th. Deposit will you can.

There is a misspelling in the letter.  It says "Thank you for using Chase" where it should say "Fuck you for using Chase".

lol.

Does this ban affect all accounts, or business accounts are exempt?

Just two types of their entry level business accounts.

[prophetx]

Its official no money to leave US after Nov.17^th. Deposit will you can.

There is a misspelling in the letter.  It says "Thank you for using Chase" where it should say "Fuck you for using Chase".

lol.

Does this ban affect all accounts, or business accounts are exempt?

Just two types of their entry level business accounts.

That was my thinking, that they are doing this to cut costs (potentially driven by new compliance requirements).

[newguy05]

i tried to withdraw 8 btc from mtgox this morning and now 8 hours later the transaction still hasnt being processed. 

is anyone else having this issue recently? bitcoin withdraw was always near instant for me usually only takes 30 mins or so.  I submitted a ticket to mtgox also

[hardpick]

i tried to withdraw 8 btc from mtgox this morning and now 8 hours later the transaction still hasnt being processed. 

is anyone else having this issue recently? bitcoin withdraw was always near instant for me usually only takes 30 mins or so.  I submitted a ticket to mtgox also

I being waiting 3 days for BTC withdraw

[tvbcof]

That was my thinking, that they are doing this to cut costs (potentially driven by new compliance requirements).

Creating these compliance requirements would be the natural and logical way to implement capital controls.  In the initial phases of implementation, at least.

Another equally valid hypothesis is that the 'powers that be' are simply trying to stop the next terrorist incident or whatever, and taking the cheap route of passing the costs off to businesses (who in turn pass them off to customers.)

Both hypotheses are worth consideration as we watch events progress.