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Author Topic: MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]  (Read 857919 times)
Tzupy
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April 04, 2018, 09:28:39 PM
 #6921

Wow that's pretty amazing to be honest. That 1.3 billion dollars could actually be shared across all holders who lost it sounds like. Mark would likely still receive a decent amount, because exchanges take their fees in BTC, so his/MtGox's account would likely have a decent share of the money to claim back.

Let's be honest, he's probably doing this so the Yakuza don't make him disappear  Grin Grin Grin

Karpeles wrote on Reddit that he has no MtGox claim, so even if there were about 100k BTC from fees, he doesn't expect any financial reward  from Civil Rehabilitation (I specifically asked him some time ago).
I suspect he would like CR to succeed, currently available funds be distributed, and then later he might recover some of the stolen BTC from Vinnik.

Sometimes, if it looks too bullish, it's actually bearish
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Tzupy
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May 18, 2018, 02:25:16 PM
 #6922

An update from MtGox Legal creditors:
https://www.mtgoxlegal.com/2018/05/18/update-18-mar-18/

We originally calculated that the sale of the 16k coins that moved should be enough to cover all assets. While it’s regrettable that the court/trustee considers they need cash to cover all the assets before moving forward, we concluded there’s nothing we can do about it. We looked at ways to challenge it legally but there was nothing we could practically do.

The further movement of 8k coins caused some alarm as some people thought it implied that the Trustee was on track to liquidate everything. Our lawyer’s view is that that is not the case, but that we should recalculate to allow for delay payment interest. The bankruptcy statute allows for 5 or 6% pa. So the trustee will need at least 20% more cash than we had originally considered. Again it’s disappointing that so many coins need to be sold, and we can only hope the trustee is getting a good price for them.

He has said that he is selling them in a way that will not affect the market. This suggests he’s selling them to a holder, such as an EFT type institution. We will find out in the course of time.

Our lawyer has met with the trustee and has had conversations with his team. He’s asked me not to divulge the details he shared with me, but the information he gave me left me confident that CR will be approved. The Trustee has to arrange Gox’s finances in such a way that meet the conditions set out by Ito, and the court can then approve CR. There seems to be willing from all parties involved, but it will take some more time, and probably the sale of more bitcoins.

As well as stockpiling the requisite amount of cash, the Trustee also has to establish a Trust vehicle to hold the assets that flow into CR. Once this has done, the conditions for approving CR should be met, and the court can then give the green light. The suggestion is that all creditors vote on being paid through the bankruptcy, (better for fiat claims) or allowing your claim to roll over into the Trust, which will then receive the assets left over after fiat claims have been settled, and distribute them under a CR plan (through an exchange or directly with the help of a third party bespoke crypto payment platform and bank transfers).

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nanobtc
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May 22, 2018, 01:28:57 AM
 #6923

Good news, that at least things are happening, thanks for the update, Tzupy. As far as "third party bespoke crypto payment platform" does this refer to Kracken? At one time they were going to be the official distributor of Gox BTC.

Unwanted BTC? Dispose of them safely here:  1PrdnbsRrv5fvpg2LAGCroBMqJGgp3pDRW
Tzupy
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June 22, 2018, 10:51:30 AM
 #6924

Commencement of Civil Rehabilitation Proceedings of Mt.Gox ( from https://mtgox-creditors.com/ )
https://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/20180622_announcement_en.pdf

Today, on June 22, 2018, the Tokyo District Court ordered commencement of civil rehabilitation proceedings regarding Mt. Gox.   Accordingly, enormous assets, which were to be distributed to Mt. Gox’s shareholders under the bankruptcy proceedings, will be returned to creditors of Mt.Gox in civil rehabilitation proceedings.  This is the creditors’ victory.  Please see “https://www.mtgox.com/ ” for the trustee’s website.

However, this victory has not been realized yet.  The victory will come to creditors when Mt. Gox makes payment to creditors and  creditors actually receive such payment.

To that end, a rehabilitation plan to certainly and promptly realize creditors’ rights should be prepared, approved at the creditors’ meeting, and approved by the court.

A rehabilitation plan, which provides creditors rights in the proceedings,  will be primarily prepared by the trustee; therefore, creditors’ opinions will not always be reflected to the rehabilitation plan prepared by the trustee.

We would like to reflect creditors’ opinions to the rehabilitation plan by proposing our opinions or plan to the trustee.  Under Japanese civil rehabilitation act, a creditor is entitled to submit his or her plan if  the court permits.

Therefore, we are now working to prepare for the separate article entitled, “Outline of Our Rehabilitation Plan.”   We would like to hear creditors’ opinions on the outline.  Creditors will send us e-mails to “mtgoxforcreditors at-mark gmail.com” (please change “at-mark” to @ when you send email), or letters.

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samson
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June 22, 2018, 12:09:24 PM
 #6925

This is good news for all the MtGox creditors, Civil Rehabilitation is approved.

It might take another year but we should get back our fair share.
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June 22, 2018, 01:00:34 PM
 #6926

congratulations to anyone who got caught up in this. it must be a very good feeling to know that something will come out of it eventually. i hope everyone hung in there.

i read elsewhere that civil rehabilitation is a super rare option, but the whole thing was a super rare case.
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June 22, 2018, 02:46:32 PM
 #6927

Does this still keep the option to receive Bitcoin back instead of fiat currency? i don't understand the email they send me.
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June 22, 2018, 03:07:40 PM
 #6928

Does this still keep the option to receive Bitcoin back instead of fiat currency? i don't understand the email they send me.

yes. check the wording here https://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/20180622_announcement_en.pdf


'In bankruptcy proceedings, non-monetary claims are converted into monetary
claims based on the valuation as at the time of the commencement of
bankruptcy proceedings. In contrast, in civil rehabilitation proceedings,
non-monetary claims are not converted into monetary claims at the time of
commencement of the civil rehabilitation proceedings. Therefore, in the civil
rehabilitation proceedings in this matter, claims seeking a refund of Bitcoins
(“Bitcoin Claims”) will also not be converted into monetary claims after the
commencement of the civil rehabilitation proceedings. '


you'll be given an option by the looks of things.
Tzupy
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June 22, 2018, 04:19:23 PM
 #6929

Does this still keep the option to receive Bitcoin back instead of fiat currency? i don't understand the email they send me.

Even if you had only BTC in your last balance (and approved claim), some of the compensation will be in fiat, besides the ~15% of BTC.
That's because Kobayashi sold about 10x more BTC than it was needed to compensate the fiat creditors.

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Tzupy
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June 29, 2018, 11:45:10 AM
Merited by Micky25 (1)
 #6930

From MtGox creditors,  https://mtgox-creditors.com/

Basic Policy for Preparing a Rehabilitation Plan (as of June 29, 2018)

We are currently considering the basic policy for the rehabilitation plan that  is as stated below.  The rehabilitation plan outline we have prepared is merely a proposal as of this point in time.  We would like to hear your opinions, as creditors, and revise this basic policy to prepare a rehabilitation plan which reflects creditor opinions to the fullest extent.

Your opinions are accepted by making comments on this article, sending e-mails to “mtgoxforcreditors at-mark gmail.com” (please change “at-mark” to @ when you send email), )  or sending letters.  We look forward to hearing your opinions.  Please provide your name and filing number so that we can identify you as a creditor.  You can also use the comment box on the website at the bottom of this page.

[Basic Policy for the Rehabilitation Plan]

1. The rehabilitation plan should be simple and the implementation thereof should have high certainty.
2. No distribution will be made to shareholders.
3. Distribution of assets to creditors will be made in kind, meaning for creditor bitcoin (BTC) claims, payment will be made in BTC and its derivatives (including but not limited BCH).
4. First payment to creditors will be made promptly after the approval and confirmation of the rehabilitation plan (according to the standard schedule, approximately 5 months after the commencement of rehabilitation proceedings).
5. The full payment to the monetary creditors will be made.
6. If there are any residual assets, or new assets are found, additional payment will be made.
7. No sponsor will be selected in principle, except where it is apparent that such selection is advantageous to creditors.

[Concept of the Basic Policy]

1. The rehabilitation plan should be simple and the implementation thereof should have high certainty.
In order to make the first payment as soon as possible, the rehabilitation plan should be simple.  If the rehabilitation plan is complicated, interest adjustment among interested parties will be necessary, and delay in the approval of the rehabilitation plan will be a concern.  Also, a complicated rehabilitation plan is difficult to understand, and is not friendly to many creditors.  We are of the opinion that it is important to make the rehabilitation plan as simple as possible, approve it at an early timing, and make payment to creditors as soon as possible.

In addition, in order to ensure payment to creditors, we are of the opinion that the rehabilitation plan should have content of implementation which is highly certain and which is realistic, considering rehabilitation proceedings practices in Japan.

2. No distribution will be made to shareholders.
Mt.Gox is not capable of returning all BTC deposited by creditors. Accordingly, we consider that all assets of Mt.Gox should be distributed to creditors and not to shareholders.

3. Payment for bitcoins (BTC) will be made in BTC and its derivatives (BCH, etc.).
We consider it appropriate to make payment to creditors who had been depositing BTC (BTC creditors) with Mt.Gox, in BTC and its derivatives (BCH, etc.), instead of cash.

This is because making payment to BTC creditors in BTC, etc. is the most simple and efficient way and transaction costs such as bank fees can be minimized (this is the very advantage of BTC). Also, if payment is to be made in cash, it will be necessary to exchange a large amount of BTC, etc. for fiat currency, which may result in decline of the price of BTC, etc.  Further, as the price of BTC, etc. fluctuates rapidly, it is difficult to determine when to sell BTC, etc.

4. First payment to creditors will be made promptly after the approval and confirmation of the rehabilitation plan.
Creditors have been waiting for payment to be made for as long as 4 years since Mt.Gox was bankrupted. Needless to say, payment to creditors should be made as soon as possible.

We are of the opinion that most of the assets, including approximately 166,000 BTC and 168,000 of BCH and other derivatives, if any, currently held by Mt.Gox, should be paid to creditors at the time of the first payment.

5.The full payment to the monetary creditors will be made.

In the Examiner’s report, the Examiner considers that the civil rehabilitation of MT.GOX shall commence, assuming that the following measures are taken before the decision to commence the rehabilitation proceedings (in other words, the discontinuation of the bankruptcy proceedings), that ensure the benefits of the bankruptcy creditors (especially those having monetary claims corresponding to bankruptcy claims) who filed proofs of claims in the bankruptcy proceedings of MT.GOX.

To convert from the bankruptcy proceedings to the civil rehabilitation proceedings, we believe that it is the best for us to allow the full payment to the monetary creditors in the civil rehabilitation proceedings.  The total amounts of the monetary claims are much smaller than the amounts of BTC claims, so the full payment to the monetary creditors does not have significant impact on the distribution to BTC creditors.  Therefore, the full payment to the monetary creditors can be implemented in the plan.

6. If there are any residual assets, or new assets are found, additional payment will be made.
At the time of the first payment, existence of some claims may still be disputed; therefore, it is expected that certain assets would have to be reserved at Mt.Gox until the amount of those disputed claims is fixed. In such case, we consider that those assets so reserved should be paid to creditors as additional payment.

Conversely, we think that payment should not be reserved until all of the assets/debts are fixed. Early payment should be realized by paying most of the assets that Mt.Gox has at hand to creditors as the first payment, as soon as possible, and then paying those assets/debts that are yet to be fixed, as additional payment.

Also, with regard to additional payment, we think that a scheme should be considered to realize additional payment at an early timing, under which additional payment should be made by fixing the amounts of the non-fixed assets/debts by transferring them to third parties, instead of waiting for all of such amounts to be fixed.

7. No sponsor will be selected in principle except where it is apparent that such selection is advantageous to creditors.
There may be an opinion that we should find a company that supports financially and commercially Mt.Gox (“sponsor”). However, Mt.Gox has already suspended its business, and it is not in a situation requiring a sponsor to supplement its creditworthiness or to continue its operations.  It is not necessarily a requirement under the rehabilitation law in Japan to appoint a sponsor, although it is common, and we are of the opinion that a rehabilitation plan can be approved by the courts and creditors without a sponsor in this case.  In addition, a certain period of time would be required to find a sponsor, and a proxy fight may occur if there is more than one sponsor candidate.  Such a situation may become an obstacle to the achievement of our purpose which we consider the most important, namely, early payment to creditors.  We do not intend to completely deny finding a sponsor; however, we are of the opinion that a sponsor should not be selected except where it is apparent that such selection is advantageous to creditors and will not be an obstacle to early payment.

Sometimes, if it looks too bullish, it's actually bearish
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June 29, 2018, 08:00:51 PM
 #6931

From MtGox creditors,  https://mtgox-creditors.com/

[edited out]

I am not sure if I understand the BTC part.

I appreciate that they seem to be aiming to pay BTC back in BTC, but do they have enough BTC for this?

My understanding was that they had lost about 850k btc, and they had recovered a bit more than 200k btc.  Since currently they have only about 166k btc, then that means that they used about 34k btc to cash out and to pay various expenses..

Anyhow, if someone had 10 BTC in MTGOX, then would they end up receiving around 20% of their BTC (which is 166/850)?  That would mean that such hypothetical person would receive 2 BTC?  Or am I missing something? 

Since BTC has appreciated so greatly, I do agree that the most fair thing is to pay back in BTC, and also if they merely received 20% back, they would still be doing much better off than they were at the time of the loss, especially as we may recall there is some discrepencies regarding the value of the coins too at the time of the loss since during that early 2014 time frame up until February 2014, the BTC price dropped from $1,200-ish down to $190-ish..., yet even at the time of the GOX closure announcement, other exchanges were dropping but still decently maintaining BTC prices in around a $600 price arena. 

Put BTC here: 35EVP8EePt8dyvKHaB7bXaRmKLm22YgRCA

How much alt coin diversification is necessary? if you are investing in Bitcoin, then perhaps 0%?
Tzupy
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June 30, 2018, 01:06:59 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #6932

From MtGox creditors,  https://mtgox-creditors.com/

[edited out]

I am not sure if I understand the BTC part.

I appreciate that they seem to be aiming to pay BTC back in BTC, but do they have enough BTC for this?

My understanding was that they had lost about 850k btc, and they had recovered a bit more than 200k btc.  Since currently they have only about 166k btc, then that means that they used about 34k btc to cash out and to pay various expenses..

Anyhow, if someone had 10 BTC in MTGOX, then would they end up receiving around 20% of their BTC (which is 166/850)?  That would mean that such hypothetical person would receive 2 BTC?  Or am I missing something? 

Since BTC has appreciated so greatly, I do agree that the most fair thing is to pay back in BTC, and also if they merely received 20% back, they would still be doing much better off than they were at the time of the loss, especially as we may recall there is some discrepencies regarding the value of the coins too at the time of the loss since during that early 2014 time frame up until February 2014, the BTC price dropped from $1,200-ish down to $190-ish..., yet even at the time of the GOX closure announcement, other exchanges were dropping but still decently maintaining BTC prices in around a $600 price arena. 

The 166k BTC allegedly still in MtGox possession are probably just 138k BTC, based on latest transfers, so the return ratio is going to be 17% max, plus forks.
This BTC distribution will be on top of the approved bankruptcy claims, paid in fiat, plus interest. Or at least that's the current plan of the CR lawyers teams.

During the last days of MtGox operation, price fell not to 190$, but to 100$, and twice.


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Tzupy
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July 20, 2018, 02:09:41 PM
 #6933

From the MtGox site: http://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/20180719_announcement.pdf

Some creditors have inquired about the timing for filing proofs of rehabilitation claim in
the Civil Rehabilitation Proceedings of MtGox Co., Ltd. We are currently using our best efforts to
build the system for filing proofs of rehabilitation claim. We plan to release such system this
August. Please kindly wait for a while. Thank you for your kind understanding.

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July 23, 2018, 04:07:20 PM
 #6934

CR plan outline proposal by MtGox Legal:
https://www.mtgoxlegal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/CR-plan-outline-July-17.pdf

Sometimes, if it looks too bullish, it's actually bearish
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August 13, 2018, 05:55:36 PM
Merited by TucoRamirez (1)
 #6935

Latest unofficial update, from a meeting of lawyers with Kobayashi:
https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgoxinsolvency/comments/96x3vv/kobayshis_feedback_on_mt_gox_legals_cr_plan/
For those too lazy to click on the link, copied most of it here:

Atmosphere was good.

1/ Fiat claims honoured as under Bankruptcy - no comments.

2/ Sekido made it clear we don’t want any more sales. Kobayashi didn’t say yes, but we didn’t receive any specific objection. Didn’t find anything in his reaction that would cause me to believe he was planning more sales.

3/ No Benefit to shareholders: Tibanne may have claim admitted. Kobayashi has counter claim against Tibanne under their bankruptcy of Tibanne. [I believe our claim against Tib is bigger than theirs against MtG] Don’t know if it’s accepted. Might be able to off set claims or money will go and come back. Either way Kob is aware of the issue and planning a solution in creditors best interests.

4/ Alt coins:
Trustee’s reaction is that it’s not easy to seperate keys for altcoins. It’s challenging. If we [Mt Gox Legal] can present a safe way for the trustee, it may advance the situation. But it’s not easy for the trustee to conduct this because of technical security. After the first distribution, it might be easier for him to sell the key.

Kobayashi understands alt coins and their value.

His question to us: How to auction the key?

5/ Mixed claims - no issue

6/ Timetable for distribution, Kob agrees to timeliness is important.

7/ Distribution Channel.
There was a clear response from trustee: distribution to private wallets is very difficult. so they are very reluctant. Distribution for BTC is it’s necessary to have an exchange. We emphasised more exchange options creditors have, the better for creditors, but there must be a limitation, cos trustee cannot accept unreliable exchanges. They need to execute some contracts, so exchange needs to have solidity to be a good for counterparty. Also, the approval of the court is required. Kob is Open to options, not fixed their minds on which exchange. They want to understand the need of the creditors, depending on the need of creditors around the world. That’s the basic requirement of the law. Need to cover all over the world where creditors exist. - Appreciate our input on this.

Kob’s position on this is very strong on this.

Kob cannot take responsibility, once distribution is completed there is no money for compensation. Clear need to have limited liablilty for trustee. Once creditor choose exchange, and assets are transfered. After that, if there is a problem trustee is not liable.

Possibility that there are creditors who cannot make an account on an exchange for geographic reasons. - In that scenario the suggested option is to convert claim to cash and send via bank. That kind of option may be necessary. In this case the trustee will need to sell some btc in order to distribute cash. Trustee will need proof of id.

Distribution of cash: not clear, but Sek didn’t hear anything negative for cash distribution to either bank or exchange. - reaction not negative. Open to offering distribution to both bank or exchange.

8/ The response to this point is on the Mt Gox Legal forum. For all creditor's interest I'm not going to share it publicly here.

9/ Trading records.
Kobs reaction was: Not easy. It may require costs. We [Mt Gox Legal] should make a more specific request. Issue of equal treatment may come up, if limited number of creditors need to this, Kob can use that as an excuse to avoid it. - Need to show how much demand there is for this.

[I raised the counter point that this information is an asset of value to creditors and should be considered as such. We need to go back with a sense of how many creditors need this (a proportion, or which jurisdictions) and how the information could be accessed via the online filing system) - it may be that creditors who want/need this may have to pay for it individually.]

Questions from Kob:

Geographic variation of memebers of MtG Legal, to consider which exchange is appropriate or not? He wants to have local information which exchange works. Creditors from local area will have infomation.

We requested face to face meeting after creditors meeting in september. Waiting for response.

AOB/ claims open by the end of this month as per memo on website.

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August 24, 2018, 11:13:22 AM
Merited by JohanM (1)
 #6936

Creditors can now (and should, or they'll get nothing) file the CR claims:
http://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/201808_announcement_en.pdf

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August 27, 2018, 04:34:54 PM
 #6937

Creditors can now (and should, or they'll get nothing) file the CR claims:
http://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/201808_announcement_en.pdf

Done !  Grin
Side note: 6% interest rate per year on the cash claim, nice.
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August 27, 2018, 10:06:00 PM
 #6938

Creditors can now (and should, or they'll get nothing) file the CR claims:
http://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/201808_announcement_en.pdf

Done !  Grin
Side note: 6% interest rate per year on the cash claim, nice.

If this all works out as planned, 6% is definitely a fair rate of return for fiat. ... and yes, giving an additional opportunity to make claims is fair and also paying back bitcoin in bitcoin is fair too - even though there is going to be decently sized socializing of losses.

Put BTC here: 35EVP8EePt8dyvKHaB7bXaRmKLm22YgRCA

How much alt coin diversification is necessary? if you are investing in Bitcoin, then perhaps 0%?
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September 26, 2018, 07:29:15 AM
 #6939

Mt. Gox, the world’s biggest cryptocurrency exchange until 2014 has taken measures to ensure that its former users get their share of compensation for their lost money, as Nobuaki Kobayashi, the civil rehabilitation and bankruptcy trustee of the firm has recently offloaded $230 million worth of Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash, as per the document released on September 25.

The former giant in Bitcoin trade was hacked four years ago, resulting in the loss of millions of dollars worth of cryptocurrency and its eventual bankruptcy. Mt. Gox has since been working on the rehabilitation of its users by implementing measures such as selling cryptocurrency for fiat money.

According to calculations by Bloomberg, the latest disposal by the trustee has got an average price of $8100 per bitcoin, which has raised the balance in their account to approximately USD 620 million.

    Further, in a document released by the trustee, it is revealed that the trust is in possession of “a suitable amount of money to secure the interests [of] BTC creditors under the Bankruptcy Proceedings in connection with BTC claims to be treated as non-monetary claims under the Civil Rehabilitation Proceedings.”

In addition, the trustee has also... To Continue Reading Click Here
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September 26, 2018, 07:45:35 AM
 #6940

Mt.Boxes bankruptcy trustee Nobuaki Kobayashi sold $230 Million worth of BTC and BCH between March and June!

https://coincodex.com/article/2395/mt-gox-bankruptcy-trustee-says-he-sold-230-million-worth-of-btc-and-bch-between-march-and-june/

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