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Author Topic: MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]  (Read 878272 times)
JorgeStolfi
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October 18, 2014, 08:10:21 AM
 #6221

What evidence do you have that there were ever more than the 200,000 bitcoins found in the "old-format wallet"? Earlier in the year, these bitcoins were worth in excess of $100 million. That's a very large cash hoard for a 3 year old company run by a 28 year old. It stretches credulity to believe Mt. Gox actually controlled $500 million in bitcoins that has been claimed. Nobody has demonstrated that those coins totalling to the larger sum ever even existed. More than likely, it is just another wild claim.

The ~800'000 BTC figure is the sum of all BTC balances in client accounts.

If the exchange had been operating as it should, that number should be the sum of all BTC deposits by clients, minus all BTC withdrawals by clients and the fees withdrawn by Mark & co.  So those bitcoins would have to be "real".

If those bitcoins did not really exist, there must be inconsistencies in the records, like bitcoins being credited to client accounts without  corresponding BTC deposits, or BTC withdrawals without debiting the client account.  Mark claimed that the latter was the case: the "malelability bug" tricked his scripts into doing precisely that.  But people who understand the "bug" say that it could not have leaked more than a few hundred BTC.  And Mark has been silent after that first "explanation".  


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I don't see what the Sunlot takeover has to do with an out-or-court settlement. When depositors and creditors work out a settlement, it could return all of the depositors' bitcoins from the 200,000 BTC stash, and there would be no need to convert to Japanese Yen. This is something completely different than Sunlot. While representing a compromise of interests, it would be a good one--essentially a win-win for everyone. Proceeding with the liquidation seems more like "delay-delay" and "lose-lose". Out-of-court settlements when they can be obtained are generally far superior in outcome to proceeding on with a bankruptcy liquidation. It will require creditors and depositors to come to some kind of agreement based upon mutual interests.

The first thing that a self-help group should do is to hire a lawer who knows Japanese bankruptcy law.  Without expert advice, the group will be just a version of this thread: clients will waste time discussing what they would like to happen (like "return the BTC as BTC") without regard for whether it is legally possible or not.

Academic interest in bitcoin only. Not owner, not trader, very skeptical of its longterm success.
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October 18, 2014, 10:50:50 AM
 #6222

What evidence do you have that there were ever more than the 200,000 bitcoins found in the "old-format wallet"? Earlier in the year, these bitcoins were worth in excess of $100 million. That's a very large cash hoard for a 3 year old company run by a 28 year old. It stretches credulity to believe Mt. Gox actually controlled $500 million in bitcoins that has been claimed. Nobody has demonstrated that those coins totalling to the larger sum ever even existed. More than likely, it is just another wild claim.

The ~800'000 BTC figure is the sum of all BTC balances in client accounts.
I know about the leaked database, but it was incomplete and missing a lot of data. What backs up this 800,000 number? No depositors have been allowed to look at these books to be sure that this number is even in the ball park. The $500 million or 800,000 BTC sounds way out of line for an exchange like Mt. Gox. 200,000 BTC sounds a lot more realistic.

If the exchange had been operating as it should, that number should be the sum of all BTC deposits by clients, minus all BTC withdrawals by clients and the fees withdrawn by Mark & co.  So those bitcoins would have to be "real".

If those bitcoins did not really exist, there must be inconsistencies in the records, like bitcoins being credited to client accounts without  corresponding BTC deposits, or BTC withdrawals without debiting the client account.  Mark claimed that the latter was the case: the "malelability bug" tricked his scripts into doing precisely that.  But people who understand the "bug" say that it could not have leaked more than a few hundred BTC.  And Mark has been silent after that first "explanation".
Given their obvious exaggerations about losses from transaction malleability, all of the company's statements should be regarded as highly suspect, especially the one that it once held 850K bitcoins.
Quote
I don't see what the Sunlot takeover has to do with an out-or-court settlement. When depositors and creditors work out a settlement, it could return all of the depositors' bitcoins from the 200,000 BTC stash, and there would be no need to convert to Japanese Yen. This is something completely different than Sunlot. While representing a compromise of interests, it would be a good one--essentially a win-win for everyone. Proceeding with the liquidation seems more like "delay-delay" and "lose-lose". Out-of-court settlements when they can be obtained are generally far superior in outcome to proceeding on with a bankruptcy liquidation. It will require creditors and depositors to come to some kind of agreement based upon mutual interests.

The first thing that a self-help group should do is to hire a lawer who knows Japanese bankruptcy law.  Without expert advice, the group will be just a version of this thread: clients will waste time discussing what they would like to happen (like "return the BTC as BTC") without regard for whether it is legally possible or not.

Agreed, all in due time.
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October 18, 2014, 02:07:03 PM
 #6223

What the fuck is the tribunal doing?
Couldn't they just split the remaining bitcoins and give them to us?
What's the point of waiting?
You had your coins stolen.  You should count them as gone.  If the liquidation is not derailed, one day you will get back about 20% of what you lost.  Then you should count that as a lucky windfall.   Unfortunately, that is how it works when companies go bankrupt.

20%?? Where do I have to sign?


Is that true? How can I get back my 20%?
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October 18, 2014, 03:43:53 PM
 #6224

What the fuck is the tribunal doing?
Couldn't they just split the remaining bitcoins and give them to us?
What's the point of waiting?
You had your coins stolen.  You should count them as gone.  If the liquidation is not derailed, one day you will get back about 20% of what you lost.  Then you should count that as a lucky windfall.   Unfortunately, that is how it works when companies go bankrupt.

20%?? Where do I have to sign?


Is that true? How can I get back my 20%?


why don't you just read??? the proof of claims form will be available at www.mtgox.com

When they update us for this i'm sure you will know it.... we all wait for that!

But let me ask you all here something.

Mark knows 5-6 programming languages right? Have you seen the documentary movie "THE RISE & RISE of BITCOIN"  if no do it ASAP!
Please pay attention how they entered the server room, he went personaly in and forced them to close the cameras and allowed only part of the room to be record - photo. To me this does not show a 28 year old guy that does not know what he is doing....
After you see the movie please answer me on that: do you think BTC left his "building" from a bug or theft??? Huh?
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October 18, 2014, 09:07:15 PM
 #6225

What the fuck is the tribunal doing?
Couldn't they just split the remaining bitcoins and give them to us?
What's the point of waiting?
You had your coins stolen.  You should count them as gone.  If the liquidation is not derailed, one day you will get back about 20% of what you lost.  Then you should count that as a lucky windfall.   Unfortunately, that is how it works when companies go bankrupt.

20%?? Where do I have to sign?


Is that true? How can I get back my 20%?


why don't you just read??? the proof of claims form will be available at www.mtgox.com

When they update us for this i'm sure you will know it.... we all wait for that!

But let me ask you all here something.

Mark knows 5-6 programming languages right? Have you seen the documentary movie "THE RISE & RISE of BITCOIN"  if no do it ASAP!
Please pay attention how they entered the server room, he went personaly in and forced them to close the cameras and allowed only part of the room to be record - photo. To me this does not show a 28 year old guy that does not know what he is doing....
After you see the movie please answer me on that: do you think BTC left his "building" from a bug or theft??? Huh?

What is your point? Seems like you are all over the place when talking about mark and the "theft" or "bug".

I watched the documentary and all I see is a scammer.

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October 18, 2014, 09:53:46 PM
 #6226

What is your point? Seems like you are all over the place when talking about mark and the "theft" or "bug".

I watched the documentary and all I see is a scammer.

Not a conspiracy theorist here, but to my understanding he (bitcoinvest) has a point. Watched the documentary too and all I saw was a perfectly settled up company and a rather cautious CEO. Something here does not fit. This can't prove anything though. Nor it can argue with the fact that his company is responsible for all the losses.

I'd carefully watch for MtGox news in the future. Something tells me that we're not done with MK or his company yet.

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October 20, 2014, 01:29:06 PM
 #6227

What the fuck is the tribunal doing?
Couldn't they just split the remaining bitcoins and give them to us?
What's the point of waiting?
You had your coins stolen.  You should count them as gone.  If the liquidation is not derailed, one day you will get back about 20% of what you lost.  Then you should count that as a lucky windfall.   Unfortunately, that is how it works when companies go bankrupt.

20%?? Where do I have to sign?


Is that true? How can I get back my 20%?


why don't you just read??? the proof of claims form will be available at www.mtgox.com

When they update us for this i'm sure you will know it.... we all wait for that!

But let me ask you all here something.

Mark knows 5-6 programming languages right? Have you seen the documentary movie "THE RISE & RISE of BITCOIN"  if no do it ASAP!
Please pay attention how they entered the server room, he went personaly in and forced them to close the cameras and allowed only part of the room to be record - photo. To me this does not show a 28 year old guy that does not know what he is doing....
After you see the movie please answer me on that: do you think BTC left his "building" from a bug or theft??? Huh?

What is your point? Seems like you are all over the place when talking about mark and the "theft" or "bug".

I watched the documentary and all I see is a scammer.

it's not the first time that i say i lost 99% of my btc on mtgox.com.

So the last thing would be to say, theft or bug?  all i know at the end of the day is that Mark owns me my BTC - MtGox.com

So i'm not supporting anyone. But people.. some parts (like macsga added) do not match! you can't be Sumacher for example and forget your Formula 1 car when going to race.. ( by the way i hope that he is doing fine and will see him soon) .

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October 26, 2014, 03:34:52 PM
 #6228

just to mention that i went just now to mtgoxprotest.com and working again.



any news about our btc?? up to now also i see bitcoins.com has not sold
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November 26, 2014, 10:26:52 AM
 #6229

Latest Gox report:
https://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/20141126_document.pdf

Sometimes, if it looks too bullish, it's actually bearish
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November 26, 2014, 10:39:19 AM
 #6230

This one is much more interesting: https://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/20141126_announcement.pdf
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November 27, 2014, 12:30:06 AM
Last edit: November 27, 2014, 01:02:03 AM by DrApricot
 #6231

Quote
MtGox’s servers and PCs (formatted after deleting all the saved data and software) will be handed over to Payward. All of those assets are located in Japan. Copies of the data (including personal information) and software stored on the server, etc. will remain with and managed by the bankruptcy trustee and used for purposes of examination, administration of properties, and bankruptcy distribution. They will not be included in the transferred assets turned over to Payward.
Ridiculous that all of the hard drives will be scratched. Hard drives are cheap. Kraken should go out to Fry's and buy their own. Good way to destroy the evidence by copying and erasing the originals. These drives should all be held in escrow until such time as all investigations have reached their final conclusion. Are we forgetting that hundreds of millions in BTC and fiat are supposedly missing, or is that just another fairy story, like the one about transaction malleability having somehow been involved with this theft ?

According to another report that I read, Kraken will not even be allowed to directly interview Mark Karpeles, who probably knows more than anyone about what happened. They must submit all questions through Mr. Kobayashi. This doesn't pass the smell test, and doesn't sound like a very serious investigation coming so late in the game--nine months after Mt. Gox collapsed.
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November 27, 2014, 01:40:06 AM
 #6232

http://youtu.be/otvYeCwQO8s


Just found it Smiley  we got Goxed video Smiley

at least now kobayashi informed us will take legal action against Mark Karpeles and Tibanne ....
 
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November 27, 2014, 03:29:48 PM
 #6233

Why Karpeles is not even considered as a suspect is beyond me.

- Hundreds of millions are missing
- It has been proven that he lied about TM
- Some data has been corrupted / destroyed according to Kobayashi himself
- He was in the best position to manipulate data and steal the coins

What do they need more Huh

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November 27, 2014, 03:48:57 PM
 #6234

Why Karpeles is not even considered as a suspect is beyond me.

- Hundreds of millions are missing
- It has been proven that he lied about TM
- Some data has been corrupted / destroyed according to Kobayashi himself
- He was in the best position to manipulate data and steal the coins

What do they need more Huh

I'm lost on this one also.

Let's say for the sake of argument he had no malintent and really did lose all those coins. In that case he was at least extremely (if not criminally) negligent and you should bring him before a civil court and get some compensation.

He did get rich by operating the exchange, why should you settle for a loss?
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November 27, 2014, 04:49:05 PM
 #6235


Whats most interesting is the amount in loans karpeles is being asked to pay back:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2ngtog/so_mark_karpeles_currently_has_a_personal_loan_of/

Great to see kraken on board, i smell a fraud charge coming MKs way.
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December 02, 2014, 08:29:40 PM
 #6236

updates on www.mtgoxprotest.com and Kolin Burges

Thanks Oliver for the updates !
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December 03, 2014, 12:21:19 AM
 #6237

updates on www.mtgoxprotest.com and Kolin Burges
Thanks Oliver for the updates !

Good report!

I disagree with the assessment that no progress has been made.  It may be less than what the creditors expected, but is more than what I expected.  Even simple bankruptcy procedures are slow, and this one is quite unusual and complicated.  Kobayashi must folow legal procedures at every step, document his actions and other people's reactions, give sufficient time for formal replies...

I find it quite encouraging that Kobayashi is actively trying to get back the money that Mark took:

Quote
Karpeles and his companies are seemingly not giving the $13 million back that they took from MtGox. [ ... ] After pressure from Kobayashi to repay he now says he will try to repay it after he raises the funds. [ ... ] His company Shade 3D which owes $3m has provided a repayment plan which Kobayashi didn't accept, in other words Karpeles would not agree to pay it back in any acceptable way. [ ... ] If they don't produce a better plan they will be forced into bankruptcy by Kobayashi. [ ... ] The Bitcoin Cafe owes around $550,000 but there is a dispute with the amount and now a petition to bankrupt the company has been filed. [ ... ] Karpeles has a personal “loan” of around $1.2 million from MtGox, and he has not provided a replayment plan. In other words it doesn't seem like he's planning to pay it back. So Kobayashi will take legal action if this continues.

I guess that the "legal action" in the last sentence would be criminal charges for fraudulent management (when managers spend lots of company money on their own salaries,  or in other ways that will end up in their pockets, while creditors are unpaid).  In that case his personal properties will be seized and auctioned (as they did with Madoff).

On the other hand, it is indeed likely that most of that money was spent and cannot be recovered.  Unless Mark, threatened with jail time, suddenly "finds another old format bitcoin wallet that he had forgotten about"

My reading is also that Kobayashi and the consultants that he hired are working hard enough, trying to make sense of MtGOX's  database and other records.  AFAIK, this was the first reliable confirmation ever that the database was compromised.  Another reason to expect that mark will face criminal proceedings.

Quote
Kobayashi also said they don't think it's weird to be getting help from Karpeles. [ ... ] The fact is that the data should have been signed over to a 3rd party at the very beginning.

Kobayashi already said that the all files were secured as soon as he could, with the help of experts from Fujitsu, and copies were given to the consultants.  Mark and/or other employees may have doctored the records before the trustee took over, but I do not see any danger that he could alter or erase anything now.

It is quite natural to interrogate the management of a failed company about its operations, and the organization and meaning of its records.   Those statements are usually taken under oath, so Mark would face additional criminal charges (perjury, contempt of court, obstruction of justice...) if he were caught lying or trying to sidetrack the investigation.  However, depending on the local laws, he may have the right to refuse to provide information that would incriminate himsef.

Quote
Kobayashi said that they regard them as separate companies and we might think it's illegal to keep the companies separate but it isn't.

Unfortunately, creating multi-layer companies is a standard trick that sleazy entrepreneurs often use to dodge the laws.  Thus they can let debts, liabilities, and unpaid taxes pile up in one company, which is destined for bankruptcy, while transferring its revenue to the other company.

For the purposes of bankruptcy, and perhaps other civil proceedings, Tibanne is just another company that provided services to MtGOX.  While MtGOX was insolvent and, for that reason, had to be liquidated, Tibanne is doing pretty well and has no debts.  I guess that this shielding will be ineffective if Mark (not MtGOX) is charged with fraudulent management ("piercing the corporate veil").

On the other hand, I was disappointed by the lack of any questions about the accounting method that will be used to define the claim of each client.  Is everybody still assuming that his claim is just his final MtGOX account balance?  There may be unwelcome surprises there.

Finally, I cannot stop thinking that some of the alleged victims may in fact be accomplices -- e.g. clients who got non-existent coins and/or money credited to their accounts.  The database may have been doctored to hide fraudulent trading and accounting.

Academic interest in bitcoin only. Not owner, not trader, very skeptical of its longterm success.
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December 03, 2014, 05:03:15 PM
 #6238

updates on www.mtgoxprotest.com and Kolin Burges
Thanks Oliver for the updates !


Kobayashi already said that the all files were secured as soon as he could, with the help of experts from Fujitsu, and copies were given to the consultants.  Mark and/or other employees may have doctored the records before the trustee took over, but I do not see any danger that he could alter or erase anything now.

[.......]

Finally, I cannot stop thinking that some of the alleged victims may in fact be accomplices -- e.g. clients who got non-existent coins and/or money credited to their accounts.  The database may have been doctored to hide fraudulent trading and accounting.
True enough--Willy-bot, Markus-bot, TIBANNE_LIMITED_HK / THK--are all indications of some abuse having occurred there at Mt. Gox, yet still you see absolutely zero risk in erasing/reformatting the original Mt. Gox server hard drives, as the the trustee indicates he plans to have done before they are transferred to Kraken?  Then with these proceedings, how sure can we be that the fox has not been guarding the hen house?
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December 03, 2014, 05:50:13 PM
 #6239

True enough--Willy-bot, Markus-bot, TIBANNE_LIMITED_HK / THK--are all indications of some abuse having occurred there at Mt. Gox, yet still you see absolutely zero risk in erasing/reformatting the original Mt. Gox server hard drives, as the the trustee indicates he plans to have done before they are transferred to Kraken?  Then with these proceedings, how sure can we be that the fox has not been guarding the hen house?

I did not recall saying that.  What I said is that I do not see risk in interrogating Mark, as long as the drives are in the hands of the receiver. 

I am not happy either with erasing the disks, since advanced forensics could recover files from them that were deleted prior to the receiver taking control.  Any such deleted files probably were not copied when  Fujitsu (or whoever) made the full-image copies.  Perhaps you should point that out  to the receiver.

Actually, I do not see why Kraken would want those disks. 

Actually, I see some risk in involving Kraken. At this stage, every bitcoin entrepreneur is in principle suspect of involvement in the disappearance of the coins, IMHO.

Academic interest in bitcoin only. Not owner, not trader, very skeptical of its longterm success.
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December 03, 2014, 06:58:18 PM
 #6240

I am not happy either with erasing the disks, since advanced forensics could recover files from them that were deleted prior to the receiver taking control.  Any such deleted files probably were not copied when  Fujitsu (or whoever) made the full-image copies.  Perhaps you should point that out  to the receiver.

My only consolation in the matter is that it's unlikely to restore something from modern hard disks, if it has been already physically overwritten. Data which was just logical deleted should endure also on the images (if they were made professionally). So, there is some hope. Nevertheless, it's a shame that they delete the data at such an early stage. A bad sign even if it not cause any further damage.

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