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Author Topic: MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]  (Read 878531 times)
JorgeStolfi
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December 29, 2014, 02:54:19 PM
 #6301

THERE'S NO ONE TO BLAME, because it's not illegal!

That is not true, the Japanese courts have already recognized that the claims of the ex-clients against MtGOX have merit (although the way the claims will be evaluated is still highly undefined, as I pointed out to exhaustion here), and Kobayashi has asked the police to investigate something (not clear if the investigation will look into the 660'000 missing ones, or some other fishy things that they found in the books).  In the two scenarios that I just suggested, crimes would have been committed for sure, even if the trades of clients inside MtGOX are considered irrelevant.

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macsga
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December 29, 2014, 03:11:20 PM
Last edit: December 29, 2014, 03:23:37 PM by macsga
 #6302

THERE'S NO ONE TO BLAME, because it's not illegal!

That is not true, the Japanese courts have already recognized that the claims of the ex-clients against MtGOX have merit (although the way the claims will be evaluated is still highly undefined, as I pointed out to exhaustion here), and Kobayashi has asked the police to investigate something (not clear if the investigation will look into the 660'000 missing ones, or some other fishy things that they found in the books).  In the two scenarios that I just suggested, crimes would have been committed for sure, even if the trades of clients inside MtGOX are considered irrelevant.

I was not referring to MtGox per se, but on the process of transacting with fiat/bitcoin or vice versa through an exchange. If I had a say through the regulation process, I'd propose the obvious:

If a transaction is NOT on the ledger, it must be declared as illegal and the person(s) involved should be hunted down for a fraud.

Simple as that.

Chaos could be a form of intelligence we cannot yet understand its complexity.
JorgeStolfi
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December 29, 2014, 03:31:55 PM
 #6303

I was not referring to MtGox per se, but on the process of transacting with fiat/bitcoin or vice versa through an exchange. If I had a say through the regulation process, I'd propose the obvious:

If no transaction is on the ledger, it must be declared as illegal and the person(s) involved should be hunted down for a fraud.

Simple as that.

Well, that may make sense from the bitcoiners' perspective; but society as a whole would see no reason to pass such a law. Transactions off the bitcoin blockchain, governed by private or public contracts, have been going on for millennia, with the support of escrows and notaries, and the backing of laws and courts; and no one sees that as a problem that needs fixing.

But, on the other hand, bitcoin exchanges should be subjected to the same regulations and audits that apply to stock exchanges and banks.  Those regulations were created precisely because stock exchanges were going through the same problems a century ago.

An alternative to government audits could be to make bitcoin exchanges transparent, i.e. requring them to publish the identities of the parties in each trade.  However, there are still many sleazy tricks (like front-running) that the exchanges could pull on their clients and would not get exposed by such transparency.

EDIT: The exchanges have a good excuse for recording trades off the blockchain: traders would not accept having to wait for confirmation on the blockchain.

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December 29, 2014, 04:06:45 PM
 #6304

By the way, another theory I have for what happened at MtGOX is:

In Aug/2013 (say) some big investor sought MtGOX's management and proposed to buy all the coins that they would sell at 200 $/BTC.  The price at the time was 110 $/BTC, so the management gave in and sold 800'000 BTC for 160 M$.  Of course they had no right to do that, since the coins were not theirs but were only held on behalf of the clients; but they thought that, when a client wanted to withdraw, they could buy the BTC from the market for ~110 $/BTC, and still make the 90 $/BTC profit.  

But then the Nov/2013 rally happened, and, before the management could react, the price surged and more or less stabilized at ~800 $/BTC, four times their sale price.  Then they could only buy back 1/4 of the coins that they had sold, namely 200'000 BTC; but still owed 800'000 BTC to their clients.  

If this is what happened, then perhaps that investor can be identified, and forced to return the coins or their equivalent in dollars at a suitably high price (since he was knowingly buying stolen property).  However, that investor could be someone outside the reach of the law, such as an anonymous gangster from Yakuza or the Chinese mafia; or someone with enough power to block the investigation...


very very very good theory and very possible one..
Even if someone with enough power the police investigation must clear the cloud above Japan....
except this "someone" is not a man ... can you think of that???
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December 29, 2014, 04:16:00 PM
 #6305

except this "someone" is not a man ... can you think of that???

I have no idea of what you mean, but I still would like to know why Autumn Radtke died.

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December 29, 2014, 04:20:48 PM
 #6306

except this "someone" is not a man ... can you think of that???

I have no idea of what you mean, but I still would like to know why Autumn Radtke died.


Very good point also for Autumn Radtke..... i think we all want to know...
I'm speaking for something higher than a single mafia guy... maybe an organization? maybe a state? who knows...
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December 29, 2014, 08:00:39 PM
 #6307

I was not referring to MtGox per se, but on the process of transacting with fiat/bitcoin or vice versa through an exchange. If I had a say through the regulation process, I'd propose the obvious:

If no transaction is on the ledger, it must be declared as illegal and the person(s) involved should be hunted down for a fraud.

Simple as that.

Well, that may make sense from the bitcoiners' perspective; but society as a whole would see no reason to pass such a law. Transactions off the bitcoin blockchain, governed by private or public contracts, have been going on for millennia, with the support of escrows and notaries, and the backing of laws and courts; and no one sees that as a problem that needs fixing.

But, on the other hand, bitcoin exchanges should be subjected to the same regulations and audits that apply to stock exchanges and banks.  Those regulations were created precisely because stock exchanges were going through the same problems a century ago.

An alternative to government audits could be to make bitcoin exchanges transparent, i.e. requring them to publish the identities of the parties in each trade.  However, there are still many sleazy tricks (like front-running) that the exchanges could pull on their clients and would not get exposed by such transparency.

EDIT: The exchanges have a good excuse for recording trades off the blockchain: traders would not accept having to wait for confirmation on the blockchain.

One of the problems that bitcoin -as a means of transaction, or if you prefer, store of value- came to overcome was the human ''ability'' to treat himself right when others aren't watching. There's a reason for that. Greed has been moving the previous/current monetary system around since the beginning. Certain ''authorities'' had the ''ability'' to serve themselves the best steak and nobody could say differently, because they were powerful enough to shut the mouth that yelled.

Human greed though, invented new ways to overpass the one and most important aspect of bitcoin. The greed elimination was implemented via mathematical encryption. BUT THEN... We invented Exchanges, which can transact without having to post on the ledger (yes, 6 mins confirmations are a fine excuse) and thus ''creating'' money out of thin air. Which is what bitcoin came to eliminate in the first place.

From the bitcoiner's perspective, I'm pro regulating and transparenting ALL exchanges. Sure, they have no reason to put things to the ledger right away - but there are A MILLION ways to put it there, right after the transaction has been done and nobody would care if it's online even 3-4hrs later (if not minutes).

Chaos could be a form of intelligence we cannot yet understand its complexity.
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January 01, 2015, 04:59:10 AM
 #6308

Japan News / Yomiuri Shimbun 2015-01-01
Fraud causes disappearance of 99% of Mt. Gox bitcoins
http://the-japan-news.com/news/article/0001825662

Quote
Among about 650,000 bitcoins that went missing from failed Mt. Gox’s exchange system, about 7,000 bitcoins, or only about 1 percent of the total, were lost due to cyber-attacks and it is highly suspected that the remaining 99 percent disappeared after the system was fraudulently operated by an unknown party, according to sources in the Metropolitan Police Department.

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January 01, 2015, 05:53:22 AM
 #6309

Yes. Further details on Jan. 3.

Until now, the Tokyo Metropolitan Police Force has said very little about Mt. Gox. That just changed.
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January 01, 2015, 06:46:28 AM
 #6310

Yes. Further details on Jan. 3.

Until now, the Tokyo Metropolitan Police Force has said very little about Mt. Gox. That just changed.

It should be interesting. Earlier court papers referred to the collapse as having resulted from "massive theft". Now the language seems to be slightly shifting to indicating that fraudulent operation by an unknown party was a cause. Sounds very mysterious!
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January 01, 2015, 11:50:44 AM
 #6311

I think this has taken a turn for the better. Although in terms of how many of my bitcoins I will get back- I suspect it's taken a turn for the worse.

more or less retired.
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January 01, 2015, 01:17:03 PM
 #6312

ok so what i can understand is that the 650.000 missing BTC where nothing more than numbers in the sql right?

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January 01, 2015, 01:33:03 PM
 #6313

the good thing with the inside job is that there are not many "insiders" and i think they already know the truth ( the police )
they established connection with kraken in order to give back the missing coins because the have found them? who knows... in 2 days we will know more Smiley
happy new year !!!
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January 01, 2015, 06:02:39 PM
 #6314

I think this has taken a turn for the better. Although in terms of how many of my bitcoins I will get back- I suspect it's taken a turn for the worse.

I wouldn't be so certain about it. If it's proven that there were nothing more than fake transactions on MtGox, most probably, those transactions will be out of the case. I personally don't believe that MtGox ever possessed 800K *REAL* BTCs, even if MK claimed they had 1M clients registered. Most of those accounts were not verified or/and contained nothing. Also, 600K is an enormous BTC amount to either steal or fake. The inside job only points at ONE person IMHO. Mark Karpeles.

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January 01, 2015, 06:10:38 PM
 #6315

if this is true the next hours we should read more news....
what i mean is according to the newspaper the "inside job" is something like 99% Mark Karpeles.
So i don't think that he is free somewhere in Japan by now and twitting like he did last months...  ( and made us angry even more )

We should expect either Mark Karpeles to speak of his lawyer... and of course we should expect mtgox.com news from Kobayiashi and police announcement... Bacause since newspaper has news for us then the police and court have already worked and been working behind the scenes.... i can't wait to see the news...


Please post here whatever you find !
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January 01, 2015, 06:18:38 PM
 #6316

News from 12 hrs back:

Quote
No suspicious account ... Bitcoin purchase record balance increase
The Yomiuri Shimbun January 1, 2015 (Thursday) 15:04
残高増える不審口座…ビットコイン購入記録なし
(Yomiuri Shimbun)
In virtual currency "Bitcoin (BTC)" Mt. Gox company ran a trading site of on the Internet, the presence of suspicious account has emerged.

For the disappearance of huge amounts of BTC, the company has been argued to be due to cyber attack ever, there is an increasing doubt was due to incorrect operation of the system. Metropolitan Police Department, of suspicious account transactions is seen to be the key of the incident elucidation, is advancing the investigation.

According to the investigation officials, suspicious account, by restoration of the company's server recording by the Metropolitan Police Department, was discovered. What person when, whether it is unclear opened.

In this account, even though there is no record that you purchased the BTC, had suddenly, the balance increases. That is suspected of transactions using the BTC that is transferred from the customer's account has been repeated.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.goo.ne.jp%2Farticle%2Fyomiuri%2Ftrend%2F20150101-567-OYT1T50032.html

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January 01, 2015, 06:20:40 PM
 #6317

...
The inside job only points at ONE person IMHO. Mark Karpeles.

It seems strange that Mark should come out, before the news story, and suggest that their on the trail of the thief and people may get their bitcoins back, if he's the thief and about to be caught and knows there are no coins to be found. Surely he's not that much of a sociopath?

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January 01, 2015, 06:38:27 PM
 #6318

let's say for a minute the coins do exist ok?

who has access to cold wallets? of course Mark and if someone else had then Mark knows who is this person.

then like i said the inside job point who?Huh?


just to mention that last post of Mark in his twitter account was on 21 of December 2014.... after that nothing..and now we read the news...

what do you think?

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January 01, 2015, 07:24:27 PM
 #6319

...
The inside job only points at ONE person IMHO. Mark Karpeles.

It seems strange that Mark should come out, before the news story, and suggest that their on the trail of the thief and people may get their bitcoins back, if he's the thief and about to be caught and knows there are no coins to be found. Surely he's not that much of a sociopath?

It's a common practice to present a decoy when you're caught red-handed. The gag order? The tweets? I mean REALLY??
Anyway; we'll know soon enough.

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January 01, 2015, 07:31:42 PM
 #6320

i think we are 2 days before we read the truth Smiley
and why not get back our BTC Smiley
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