MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]

[DrApricot]

I don't agree with you that one year later nobady can say for sure....
in fact, days after hacker attack/transaction malleability news from Mark ALL the community and experts denied and one year later we had those news from Tokyo police that also said it was an inside job. The newspaper (if i remember well was the newspaper or an online article ) wrote that after the news in 2-3 days would post more about the case... but nothing happened since... it's clear from this point of view that someone is covering the hole case.

Let's not forget about that!
And also we have to have some news from Kraken side right?



by the way very nice article....
http://www.scmp.com/business/article/1735594/beijing-has-bitcoin-problem-its-hands

From that same article:

But now that it’s [Beijing's] facing a stealthier threat in bitcoin, its options are more limited. Zhou is undoubtedly aware of the problem posed by bitcoin, but he may not yet know what he should do about it.

Could be a similar type of situation with the Mt. Gox coins. They're still trying to figure out what to do--hence, the cover-up while the PTB try to keep their options open. One wonders what their original plan could have been--obviously, it has gone awry.

The only point of leverage the depositors have is to expose their game. The situation is clearly much more complicated than has generally been given any credit. If it were merely a matter of hacker(s) stealing bitcoins, it would have long since been resolved, and someone would be sitting behind bars.

The present situation suggests a stalemate of some kind, and playing for time until it ends. Those parties holding missing Mt. Gox coins need to be smoked out ASAP.

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[bitcoinvest]

Could be a similar situation with the Mt. Gox coins. They're still trying to figure out what to do--hence, the cover-up as the PTB try to leave their options open. The only point of leverage the creditors have is to expose their game. The situation is obviously much more complicated than has generally been given credit. If it were merely a matter of hacker(s) stealing bitcoins, it would have long since been resolved, and someone would be sitting behind bars.

i agree 100%!
this is the reason they do not publish something, they examine what is the best senario to publish....

[bitcoinvest]

After a long time away from internet access yesterday i finally was able to read the news.
if you haven't heard about it have a look on that..

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/30xb6s/courtesy_of_mark_karpeles/

Seems that Mark is trying to tell us something

[RaTTuS]

http://techcrunch.com/2015/04/01/feds-nabbed-for-big-bitcoin-heist-involving-gox-and-silk-road/

[NUFCrichard]

http://techcrunch.com/2015/04/01/feds-nabbed-for-big-bitcoin-heist-involving-gox-and-silk-road/

Do we know how many they are supposed to have stolen?  I had heard that they were arrested about the silk road theft but I didn't know it could be Gox related.
Are there any actual updates about getting money back from Gox?  Or is that about as likely as it ever was to be allowed to withdraw money from Gox?!

[bri912678]

http://techcrunch.com/2015/04/01/feds-nabbed-for-big-bitcoin-heist-involving-gox-and-silk-road/

Do we know how many they are supposed to have stolen?  I had heard that they were arrested about the silk road theft but I didn't know it could be Gox related.
Are there any actual updates about getting money back from Gox?  Or is that about as likely as it ever was to be allowed to withdraw money from Gox?!

The Feds involvement could make the Japanese Mt Gox court case even longer. The Japanese court will have to take the news into account and debate if it effects the case, which could take months.

[goxcoiner]

Hello guys,

I really appreciate your devotion to the matter discussed thoroughly already.
I'm kinda new here, but affected with the same issue.
Some time ago I found myself unable to log in to my MtGox account to check again by balance.
Does anyone here have the same problem right now or that's only me and the forgotten user/password thing?

[majeis]

Hello guys,

I really appreciate your devotion to the matter discussed thoroughly already.
I'm kinda new here, but affected with the same issue.
Some time ago I found myself unable to log in to my MtGox account to check again by balance.
Does anyone here have the same problem right now or that's only me and the forgotten user/password thing?

Nope. Everyone else can get their coins just fine. Check out the movement on that market! https://bitcoinwisdom.com/markets/mtgox/btcusd

You should contact that guy that lost 10k btc on this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1028032.0

[zinjo]

Hello guys,

I really appreciate your devotion to the matter discussed thoroughly already.
I'm kinda new here, but affected with the same issue.
Some time ago I found myself unable to log in to my MtGox account to check again by balance.
Does anyone here have the same problem right now or that's only me and the forgotten user/password thing?

Nope. Everyone else can get their coins just fine. Check out the movement on that market! https://bitcoinwisdom.com/markets/mtgox/btcusd

You should contact that guy that lost 10k btc on this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1028032.0

What do you mean by "Everyone else can get their coins just fine" ?

[majeis]

Hello guys,

I really appreciate your devotion to the matter discussed thoroughly already.
I'm kinda new here, but affected with the same issue.
Some time ago I found myself unable to log in to my MtGox account to check again by balance.
Does anyone here have the same problem right now or that's only me and the forgotten user/password thing?

Nope. Everyone else can get their coins just fine. Check out the movement on that market! https://bitcoinwisdom.com/markets/mtgox/btcusd

You should contact that guy that lost 10k btc on this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1028032.0

What do you mean by "Everyone else can get their coins just fine" ?

Thought it was apparent I was being sarcastic what with replying to a single-post user about something that should be clear to everyone 

Nevermind.

[zinjo]

Hello guys,

I really appreciate your devotion to the matter discussed thoroughly already.
I'm kinda new here, but affected with the same issue.
Some time ago I found myself unable to log in to my MtGox account to check again by balance.
Does anyone here have the same problem right now or that's only me and the forgotten user/password thing?

Nope. Everyone else can get their coins just fine. Check out the movement on that market! https://bitcoinwisdom.com/markets/mtgox/btcusd

You should contact that guy that lost 10k btc on this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1028032.0

What do you mean by "Everyone else can get their coins just fine" ?

Thought it was apparent I was being sarcastic what with replying to a single-post user about something that should be clear to everyone 

Nevermind.

haha alright, i was like dufuuq do we get out money back

[macsga]

I don't see funds coming out from Gox. The only viable solution on the matter would be the MtGox->Kraken transition but -unfortunately- I don't see it happening anytime soon. The authorities have no comment on the matter, M.K. is nowhere to be found and if you ask the guys at Kraken they say "we're in the (negotiation) process". As many here before me have mentioned, "there is a LOT we don't know" and I bet, there's more that we don't even imagine. 

[JorgeStolfi]

The deadline for victims to file claims was 2015-05-25, right?  That is only 1 month away, and AFAIK Mr. Kobayashi has yet to tell former MtGOX clients what will constitute a valid claim, and what they will have to provide in order to prove that they are entitled to it.

Perhaps you may have noticed my bazillion warnings that "your claim" may not be just your balance in the MtGOX ledgers at some random date, but instead the difference between what you deposited and what you withdrew, with the market price *at the time* used to evaluate BTC deposits and withdrawals.  AFAIK, the latter method, rather than the account balances, has been used in similar cases, such as the Madoff ponzi liquidation. 

But it seems that no one is worried by that question, because apparently no one has thought of asking Mr. Kobayashi which of the two alternatives he will use.  It seems that everybody is still convinced that the preferences of the victims will prevail over the laws, the legal precedents, and the trustee's preferences.

I don't even fell like saying "good luck to you" any more...

[macsga]

The deadline for victims to file claims was 2015-05-25, right?  That is only 1 month away, and AFAIK Mr. Kobayashi has yet to tell former MtGOX clients what will constitute a valid claim, and what they will have to provide in order to prove that they are entitled to it.

Perhaps you may have noticed my bazillion warnings that "your claim" may not be just your balance in the MtGOX ledgers at some random date, but instead the difference between what you deposited and what you withdrew, with the market price *at the time* used to evaluate BTC deposits and withdrawals.  AFAIK, the latter method, rather than the account balances, has been used in similar cases, such as the Madoff ponzi liquidation.  

But it seems that no one is worried by that question, because apparently no one has thought of asking Mr. Kobayashi which of the two alternatives he will use.  It seems that everybody is still convinced that the preferences of the victims will prevail over the laws, the legal precedents, and the trustee's preferences.

I don't even fell like saying "good luck to you" any more...

Good points. To the most significant one; a valid claim is presumed that will be based on the balance that each client had at the time the closure happened (ie: the balance you have now on your account). The problem is that they're short on coins. On the other hand they're (allegedly) have to give A LOT of fiat back. As per the 1 month period and the "valid claim", I don't buy it.

Besides; what's more valid than a customer that it was mandatory to prove his ID, residence, etc in order to become a member in Gox? Don't you find it overemphasized? Too many aspects are so damn wrong in there... and the sad thing is that I don't see it become any better; yes. Even when the deadline is passed...

[JorgeStolfi]

To the most significant one; a valid claim is presumed that will be based on the balance that each client had at the time the closure happened (ie: the balance you have now on your account).

Erm, "presumed" in what sense?  That is probably what the victims expect and would like, but the point is that the law and/or legal precedents seem to be different -- and they woudl prevail over the victims' convictions about "right".  (The MtGOX website warns that the balance is provided only for information, and should NOT be assumed to be the claim.)

Not to mention that, according to what I have read, the database has been doctored and/or some of the trades recorded i it are not legitimate.  If that is the case, those balances cannot be taken into account.  Even if your balance is correct according to your accounting, if other people's balances are artificially inflated, your refund would be diminished.  Ditto if some large accounts are owned by MtGOX managers or associates (they should not get any refunds).

Besides; what's more valid than a customer that it was mandatory to prove his ID, residence, etc in order to become a member in Gox?

I don't know, but If the claims are defined as deposits minus withdrawals, clients may have to submit at least a list of such actions with dates.  Also, I gather that there are old accounts without full ID information, or may have been created with bogus IDs. 

[goxcoiner]

Hello guys,

I really appreciate your devotion to the matter discussed thoroughly already.
I'm kinda new here, but affected with the same issue.
Some time ago I found myself unable to log in to my MtGox account to check again by balance.
Does anyone here have the same problem right now or that's only me and the forgotten user/password thing?

Nope. Everyone else can get their coins just fine. Check out the movement on that market! https://bitcoinwisdom.com/markets/mtgox/btcusd

You should contact that guy that lost 10k btc on this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1028032.0

What do you mean by "Everyone else can get their coins just fine" ?

Thought it was apparent I was being sarcastic what with replying to a single-post user about something that should be clear to everyone 

Nevermind.

haha alright, i was like dufuuq do we get out money back

Hey majeis, you just haven't read my post carefully enough...
It was not a question of "getting my coins just fine" but only of logging in there to check my balance...

[macsga]

Erm, "presumed" in what sense?  That is probably what the victims expect and would like, but the point is that the law and/or legal precedents seem to be different -- and they woudl prevail over the victims' convictions about "right".  (The MtGOX website warns that the balance is provided only for information, and should NOT be assumed to be the claim.)

Presumed based on the fact on what the online database -that everyone is able to login with his account credentials- presents. Otherwise what is it there for? Pardon me, but I wouldn't like that as a victim as you propose. I'd like the possibility to get back about 4000eur which I tried to withdraw back then and wasn't able to. On the contrary I've been offered to buy back some of my coins (at the time it was a bit more expensive) and I got trapped with only some virtual coins which I couldn't withdraw either.

Not to mention that, according to what I have read, the database has been doctored and/or some of the trades recorded i it are not legitimate.  If that is the case, those balances cannot be taken into account.  Even if your balance is correct according to your accounting, if other people's balances are artificially inflated, your refund would be diminished.  Ditto if some large accounts are owned by MtGOX managers or associates (they should not get any refunds)

I don't know, but If the claims are defined as deposits minus withdrawals, clients may have to submit at least a list of such actions with dates.  Also, I gather that there are old accounts without full ID information, or may have been created with bogus IDs.  

Doctored or not, there is proof for all the transactions we've made (I personally have an electronic copy of every single one). So; I guess if I'm able to cross-match, mr Kobayashi should be able to do it too. As per the artificial balances and/or non verified accounts, I'd rule all of them as fake unless the owner(s) have proof that they're actually theirs (good luck with that)...

[majeis]

Hello guys,

I really appreciate your devotion to the matter discussed thoroughly already.
I'm kinda new here, but affected with the same issue.
Some time ago I found myself unable to log in to my MtGox account to check again by balance.
Does anyone here have the same problem right now or that's only me and the forgotten user/password thing?

Nope. Everyone else can get their coins just fine. Check out the movement on that market! https://bitcoinwisdom.com/markets/mtgox/btcusd

You should contact that guy that lost 10k btc on this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1028032.0

What do you mean by "Everyone else can get their coins just fine" ?

Thought it was apparent I was being sarcastic what with replying to a single-post user about something that should be clear to everyone 

Nevermind.

haha alright, i was like dufuuq do we get out money back

Hey majeis, you just haven't read my post carefully enough...
It was not a question of "getting my coins just fine" but only of logging in there to check my balance...

My misunderstanding. First posts in threads like these tend to come from less than genuine sources. Sorry that this is the topic that transitions you from lurker to poster.

I hope you have favorable results in the future, though with crypto, don't get your hopes up for good news in matters like this.

Best of luck.

[JorgeStolfi]

Erm, "presumed" in what sense?

Presumed based on the fact on what the online database -that everyone is able to login with his account credentials- presents. Otherwise what is it there for?  [ ... ] Pardon me, but I wouldn't like that as a victim as you propose.

Well, the website does explicitly say that you should not presume that:

Important announcement to all users confirming their account
This balance confirmation service is provided on this site only for the convenience of all users.  Please be aware that confirming the balance on this site does not constitute a filing of bankruptcy claims under the bankruptcy procedure and note that the balance amounts shown on this site should also not be considered an acknowledgment by the bankruptcy trustee of the amount of any bankruptcy claims of users.  Bankruptcy claims under a bankruptcy procedure will be fixed through filing of claims and the investigation procedure. The method for filing claims will be published on this site as soon as we are in a situation to announce it.

See what I mean?  Even though it is written with all letters, you all refuse to even contemplate the idea that YOUR BALANCES ARE NOT WHAT YOU ARE OWED.

And I am not trying to argue what *I* think would be right.  I am only trying to warn you that it is KOBAYASHI who will decide how the claims will be defined; and what *YOU* like, or you think is right, is the least important thing he has to consider.  Laws, precedents, and HIS notion of fairness will come first. 

I'd like the possibility to get back about 4000eur which I tried to withdraw back then and wasn't able to. On the contrary I've been offered to buy back some of my coins (at the time it was a bit more expensive) and I got trapped with only some virtual coins which I couldn't withdraw either. [ ... ] Doctored [ database ] or not, there is proof for all the transactions we've made (I personally have an electronic copy of every single one). So; I guess if I'm able to cross-match, mr Kobayashi should be able to do it too.

That is one reason why the claims should not be based on the final balances: in the final weeks, many users felt forced to do bad trades (e.g. selling their coins at 20% of the external market price) because they were led to believe that they could only get yen or dollars out.  Other clients profited from their despair to acquire lots of coins at that ridiculos prices.  The coins have lost value since then, but it is not clear who profited from those "unnatural" trades. 

Even for clients who did not trade in those last few days, their final balances are the resut of trading in an false (probably fraudulent)  market, so their gains or losses were probably affected by fraud (even if unknowingly).  For example, MtGOX's price was significantly higher than the outside market for many months.  It is conjectured that some client was buying coins (probably through the "Willy" robot) with non-existent money; and that the missing coins were already missing by then.  So, profits made by trading inside MtGOX may have been bogus because they were built by trading non-existent coins and money, at prices that were distorted by the fraud.

To me, those distortions make the deposits-minus-withdrawals criterion seems a logical necessity in cases like MtGOX.

Imagine a soccer match were one of the goals happens to be 20% wider than the other, and the diference is discovered only after the game is over.  There is no way to adjust the score after the fact to make it fair: that 20% difference in size may have affected the game in all sorts of ways, not just increased the score by 20%.  The only fair decision would be to cancel that match and play it again.

[freedombit]

Lots of work, but no conclusions. Too much secrecy.

http://blog.wizsec.jp/2015/04/the-missing-mtgox-bitcoins.html