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Author Topic: MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]  (Read 878059 times)
cesmak
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June 20, 2016, 01:24:16 PM
 #6721

If Kraken really wanted to help, they should have sent the message 20 days ago. There are now only 7 days left to file a complaint, so for those outside Japan it's almost impossible.

Well... Kraken only reported again what the Trustee told with a document dated 3 June that is on the official site mtgox.com (https://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/20160603_qa_en.pdf) and all the others documents there, so nothing new if you just follow the official site and read pdf docs, as they are just released.....

The problem only exists for those which the claim was rejected, for all the others nothing to be done.

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ilpirata79
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June 21, 2016, 07:06:37 AM
 #6722

So how much will we receive?
20% of the bitcoin lost?
Maybe less considering that the price of bitcoins has increased? (so the ones who had money will get more)
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June 21, 2016, 07:35:33 AM
 #6723

So how much will we receive?
20% of the bitcoin lost?
Maybe less considering that the price of bitcoins has increased? (so the ones who had money will get more)

If your claim is accepted, then you now know the amount in JPY you will be handed. For bitcoin there was a fixed price for it when this is officially announced (and the pdf was out); IIRC roughly 50500 JPY per bitcoin. So if we want to make the assumption that our claims will be delivered according to this, you will have to divide that amount with bitcoin's current value to come up with the bitcoins you will end up with.

Chaos could be a form of intelligence we cannot yet understand its complexity.
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June 21, 2016, 08:06:27 AM
 #6724

So how much will we receive?
20% of the bitcoin lost?
Maybe less considering that the price of bitcoins has increased? (so the ones who had money will get more)

If your claim is accepted, then you now know the amount in JPY you will be handed. For bitcoin there was a fixed price for it when this is officially announced (and the pdf was out); IIRC roughly 50500 JPY per bitcoin. So if we want to make the assumption that our claims will be delivered according to this, you will have to divide that amount with bitcoin's current value to come up with the bitcoins you will end up with.

That is  not fair.
The value of the held bitcoins (approx 200.000) should be valued the day of the distribution or as an average of the last N days before the distribution.
It does not make sense to value bitcoins according to a value of some day randomly chosen.

Best regards,
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macsga
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June 21, 2016, 08:08:17 AM
 #6725

^^
I know...

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SolarSilver
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June 21, 2016, 08:59:53 AM
 #6726

That is  not fair.
The value of the held bitcoins (approx 200.000) should be valued the day of the distribution or as an average of the last N days before the distribution.
It does not make sense to value bitcoins according to a value of some day randomly chosen.

Yes, that is my sentiment as well. It would make sense if they had actually sold the BTC last year and fixed the price at that moment, but if they are still holding the BTC then they will be penalising those who are owed BTC and benefitting those who are owed fiat (if the value of BTC is higher than at the fixed level)

It feels like they are treating this like a traditional bankrupt company: freeze the bank accounts, sell the inventory and assets like buildings and then distribute the fiat (whatever is left over) proportionally over all the debt holders
macsga
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June 21, 2016, 09:31:11 AM
 #6727

That is  not fair.
The value of the held bitcoins (approx 200.000) should be valued the day of the distribution or as an average of the last N days before the distribution.
It does not make sense to value bitcoins according to a value of some day randomly chosen.

Yes, that is my sentiment as well. It would make sense if they had actually sold the BTC last year and fixed the price at that moment, but if they are still holding the BTC then they will be penalising those who are owed BTC and benefitting those who are owed fiat (if the value of BTC is higher than at the fixed level)

It feels like they are treating this like a traditional bankrupt company: freeze the bank accounts, sell the inventory and assets like buildings and then distribute the fiat (whatever is left over) proportionally over all the debt holders

This is a two sided sword; if the price of BTC was going down then we'd been all happy. Now it's because it pumps (will it be forever?) that we still talk about it. All in all, I believe since this was the first time that some company like MtGox went bankrupt, there was not a known procedure and they had to improvise.

My thesis is that I'm not happy about it; but let's get it done already before BTC hits a new ATH! Cool

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June 21, 2016, 10:57:32 AM
 #6728

"if the price of BTC was going down then we'd been all happy"... No, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be happy! Cheesy

My take is that as BTC price rises, the % of JPY to be distributed also rises, so regardless of BTC price at distribution, it should be close to 20%.

Sometimes, if it looks too bullish, it's actually bearish
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June 21, 2016, 12:08:18 PM
 #6729

"if the price of BTC was going down then we'd been all happy"... No, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be happy! Cheesy

My take is that as BTC price rises, the % of JPY to be distributed also rises, so regardless of BTC price at distribution, it should be close to 20%.

I don't think that this is the case, because the amount of JPY also as the amount of BTC to be distributed is finite. That's why the trustee decided to distribute it based on a certain price at a specific date.

But, you are right for the BTC price Wink

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June 21, 2016, 04:28:31 PM
 #6730

but is there a way to see in the list with accepted claims if we are going to actually get it in BTC or in JPY?

Yes, it's quoted as BTC as well in mine; and the amount I wanted was BTC - as the one I have lost. It says accepted, so I just wait for Kraken for the distribution (fingers crossed).

Sorry, I should have posted a screenshot, I just don't see where it's confirmed you get BTC and not JPY:



Let's say I'm Maxwell in the list, I see my claim of BTC 928.9681276 (Filed Amount concerning Deposited BTC), I then see the "Filed Claim Amount Converted to Yen (JPY)" and the "Claim Amount Accepted by the Bankruptcy Trustee (JPY)". The line under it in Japanese must say something like "Delay Damages for Bitcoin" I assume

Looking at the small print:

Quote
7. The amount of my/our bankruptcy claim will be converted into Japanese yen using the exchange rate designated by the bankruptcy trustee (the closing rate of the telegraphic transfer selling rate of the Tokyo Foreign Exchange Market (the rate published by Mitsubishi UFJ Research and Consulting Co., Ltd.) on April 23, 2014, Japan time) and the Bitcoin rate designated by the bankruptcy trustee (CoinDesk Bitcoin Price Index on 23:59 on April 23, 2014 Japan time) (1 Bitcoin = USD483 = JPY50,058.12. This calculation is made using the rate “USD1 = JPY103.64” (the closing rate of the telegraphic transfer selling rate of the Tokyo Foreign Exchange Market (the rate published by Mitsubishi UFJ Research and Consulting Co., Ltd.) on April 23, 2014, Japan time).
8. The distribution that may be made by the bankruptcy trustee to me/us will not violate any legal regulations, including the Japanese Foreign Exchange and Foreign Trade Control Law and the US Finance Ministry's financial restrictions (OFAC regulations).
9. If the bankruptcy trustee makes a distribution by transferring cash into accounts at Kraken or any financial institution, I/we will receive such distribution through an account at Kraken or a finacial institution which is in the same name as the name I/we entered for the filing of my/our bankruptcy claim.
10. If I/we file a bankruptcy claim through Kraken’s system or, if I/we choose to receive a distribution in Bitcoin or in cash through an account with Kraken’s exchange, the bankruptcy trustees will receive information on me/us that are held by Kraken and will disclose to or share with Kraken information on me/us that is necessary to make the distribution.
11. If I/we file a bankruptcy claim through Kraken’s system and suffer any loss due to any trouble, failure, etc. relating to Kraken’s system, I/we will not make any claim, including any claim for damages, against MTGOX and/or its bankruptcy trustee in relation to such loss.
12. If I/we choose to receive a distribution, either in Bitcoin or in cash, through an account with the Kraken’s exchange, such distribution will be completed and the bankruptcy trustee’s responsibility to make such distribution will extinguish when the bankruptcy trustee has transferred to Kraken the Bitcoins and/or cash to be used for the distribution. After the said transfer has been made, I/we will not make any claim including any claim for damages against MTGOX and/or its bankruptcy trustee even if I/we cannot appropriately receive the distribution from Kraken.

can I conclude that if you want to be paid out in BTC, you have to switch to Kraken?

Speaking about the file, i actually took some effort to just browser through to see how much did each person have. And i dont know if this is a bug or not, but someone have like a hundred thousand of btc? That is really an insane amount of btc!
SolarSilver
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June 21, 2016, 04:58:15 PM
 #6731

Speaking about the file, i actually took some effort to just browser through to see how much did each person have. And i dont know if this is a bug or not, but someone have like a hundred thousand of btc? That is really an insane amount of btc!

Was his claim accepted?

There are always a few early accounts where people loaded them up with BTC back in July 2010 and lost interest after a while and forgot about it (until it was too late)
minecoins
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June 24, 2016, 09:22:24 PM
 #6732

So. guys. i had some bitcoins at mtgox. all of them got accepted. i am fine with that. now should i make the japanese thing and send it to mtgox ? or not? i am so confused....
macsga
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June 24, 2016, 09:27:08 PM
 #6733

So. guys. i had some bitcoins at mtgox. all of them got accepted. i am fine with that. now should i make the japanese thing and send it to mtgox ? or not? i am so confused....

Stay put; we're all in the same wagon Smiley

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June 24, 2016, 09:32:40 PM
 #6734

days are passing and last day it's gonna be a fail. they should give us something to know.
cesmak
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June 25, 2016, 08:07:36 AM
 #6735

Relax guys, it's a slow process, and read carefully what is written on mtgox site.

27 June, dead line for presenting opposition to rejected claims...

The court, then need time to evaluate all the cases.

The next creditor meeting from the Trustee will be in 28 of September, so i think that before that date there will be no news.....

freedombit
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June 25, 2016, 08:17:14 AM
 #6736

So how much will we receive?
20% of the bitcoin lost?
Maybe less considering that the price of bitcoins has increased? (so the ones who had money will get more)

If your claim is accepted, then you now know the amount in JPY you will be handed. For bitcoin there was a fixed price for it when this is officially announced (and the pdf was out); IIRC roughly 50500 JPY per bitcoin. So if we want to make the assumption that our claims will be delivered according to this, you will have to divide that amount with bitcoin's current value to come up with the bitcoins you will end up with.


In the last bankruptcy meeting, the trustee indicated that he might distribute Bitcoin as Bitcoin. Japan recently passed a law that recognized Bitcoin as a currency, so I think it is more likely.

Also, they are still investigating whether or not Bitcoin is missing, how much is missing, and the whereabouts of any such missing Bitcoin. There are lots of rumors that only 20% will be found, but I have faith that with all those international safety and security agencies involved that we should see near 100% recovery. They've had lots of time to sort everything out.
iikun
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June 25, 2016, 09:30:40 AM
 #6737

So how much will we receive?
20% of the bitcoin lost?
Maybe less considering that the price of bitcoins has increased? (so the ones who had money will get more)

If your claim is accepted, then you now know the amount in JPY you will be handed. For bitcoin there was a fixed price for it when this is officially announced (and the pdf was out); IIRC roughly 50500 JPY per bitcoin. So if we want to make the assumption that our claims will be delivered according to this, you will have to divide that amount with bitcoin's current value to come up with the bitcoins you will end up with.


In the last bankruptcy meeting, the trustee indicated that he might distribute Bitcoin as Bitcoin. Japan recently passed a law that recognized Bitcoin as a currency, so I think it is more likely.

Also, they are still investigating whether or not Bitcoin is missing, how much is missing, and the whereabouts of any such missing Bitcoin. There are lots of rumors that only 20% will be found, but I have faith that with all those international safety and security agencies involved that we should see near 100% recovery. They've had lots of time to sort everything out.

100% back? lol  There is no incentive whatsoever for the authorities to recover the funds. The Silk Road case has shown us that even when they do their own agents are often as light-fingered as common thieves/scammers. 20~25% return tops methinks
freedombit
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June 25, 2016, 03:31:30 PM
 #6738

So how much will we receive?
20% of the bitcoin lost?
Maybe less considering that the price of bitcoins has increased? (so the ones who had money will get more)

If your claim is accepted, then you now know the amount in JPY you will be handed. For bitcoin there was a fixed price for it when this is officially announced (and the pdf was out); IIRC roughly 50500 JPY per bitcoin. So if we want to make the assumption that our claims will be delivered according to this, you will have to divide that amount with bitcoin's current value to come up with the bitcoins you will end up with.


In the last bankruptcy meeting, the trustee indicated that he might distribute Bitcoin as Bitcoin. Japan recently passed a law that recognized Bitcoin as a currency, so I think it is more likely.

Also, they are still investigating whether or not Bitcoin is missing, how much is missing, and the whereabouts of any such missing Bitcoin. There are lots of rumors that only 20% will be found, but I have faith that with all those international safety and security agencies involved that we should see near 100% recovery. They've had lots of time to sort everything out.

100% back? lol  There is no incentive whatsoever for the authorities to recover the funds. The Silk Road case has shown us that even when they do their own agents are often as light-fingered as common thieves/scammers. 20~25% return tops methinks

Investigation is on going, ad it seems that the Trustee and team has done a tremendous amount of work. They've identified and publicly expressed which claims are acceptable and which are not. That in itself shows they are doing the research. It seems most people have had their claims accepted, except for a number of people that deposited funds via Poland. There are numerous ongoing lawsuits, some of which are not related to bankruptcy, but claims prior. Mark Karpeles, the primary exchange owner and the man with more insight than anyone, had some sort of gag order put on him. When he wrote a blog about his suspicions, head tossed in prison. There are still ongoing events tied to Silk Road, and possibly involving Craig Wright. Who is Variety Jones?

I agree, there is no incentive for the authorities that you speak of to recover the funds, but that doesn't mean there is no incentive for any authorities. This was one of the largest thefts of a financial institution in history. Not only that, but if Bitcoin grows and becomes as widely used as most people on this board are working towards and expect, this theft will be of historic proportions. And it is all recorded history.

So, yeah, I believe there is incentive to get this right.
DrApricot
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June 26, 2016, 11:07:01 PM
Last edit: June 27, 2016, 02:30:48 AM by DrApricot
 #6739

Blaming the disappearance of the MTGOX coins on an unknown hacker, or surmising that the private keys to the cold storage wallets have been lost or corrupted, or that some government has confiscated the coins without telling anyone about it stretches all credulity.

850,000 BTC supposed to be there
(minus)
202,000 BTC found in old format wallet
------------
648,000 BTC still missing

Using today's price in USD of approximately $625, the total value missing amounts to

648,000 * $625 equals    $405 million disappeard

Someone needs to provide a very good and believable explanation where these "missing funds" have gone.

After all of the investigation is said and done, and all this time that has past, it is unbelievable that those on the inside of this investigation don't already know exactly where the missing coins are; that is, if they ever existed in the first place. In case they never existed, then 202K is all that there ever were. That amount still yields 202,163 BTC (on hand) divided by 7,952 (approved claimants) which equals an average of 25.4 BTC per claimant that can be returned!

If some large bag holder has all the missing coins, and the trustee knows who it is, then maybe it would make sense to send whomsoever this person or entity may be an invoice, call this an account receivable or "asset", and simply open Mt. Gox back up. Sure it would be operating on a fractional reserve, but it would actually be more secure than most banks today since it would have a (202K / 850K) * 100 reserve ratio or 23.75% whereas most fiat banks like Citibank, Mizuho and Deutsche all operate on 10% or less reserve.

In other words, why make such a huge fuss about liquidating MTGOX. Nobody gives a second thought to liquidating the TBTF banks. We just keep using them and hoping for the best.
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June 29, 2016, 09:30:31 AM
 #6740

Blaming the disappearance of the MTGOX coins on an unknown hacker, or surmising that the private keys to the cold storage wallets have been lost or corrupted, or that some government has confiscated the coins without telling anyone about it stretches all credulity.

850,000 BTC supposed to be there
(minus)
202,000 BTC found in old format wallet
------------
648,000 BTC still missing

Using today's price in USD of approximately $625, the total value missing amounts to

648,000 * $625 equals    $405 million disappeard

Someone needs to provide a very good and believable explanation where these "missing funds" have gone.

After all of the investigation is said and done, and all this time that has past, it is unbelievable that those on the inside of this investigation don't already know exactly where the missing coins are; that is, if they ever existed in the first place. In case they never existed, then 202K is all that there ever were. That amount still yields 202,163 BTC (on hand) divided by 7,952 (approved claimants) which equals an average of 25.4 BTC per claimant that can be returned!

If some large bag holder has all the missing coins, and the trustee knows who it is, then maybe it would make sense to send whomsoever this person or entity may be an invoice, call this an account receivable or "asset", and simply open Mt. Gox back up. Sure it would be operating on a fractional reserve, but it would actually be more secure than most banks today since it would have a (202K / 850K) * 100 reserve ratio or 23.75% whereas most fiat banks like Citibank, Mizuho and Deutsche all operate on 10% or less reserve.

In other words, why make such a huge fuss about liquidating MTGOX. Nobody gives a second thought to liquidating the TBTF banks. We just keep using them and hoping for the best.

yup... no one ever came up with a good story of exactly what happened.  most likely Mark stole them all and it going to wait it out. 

even if he has to spend 10 years in prison, in 10 years he comes out a multi billionaire.
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