MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]

[macsga]

I was just thinking of something else: Is it theoretically possible to get more then 100% back?
(Bitcoin price at $800 (or even higher) and not all Bitcoins claimed due to different kind of reasons).

Theoretically it is possible but why would they pay out more bitcoins? Won't happen.

And its almost certain that not all bitcoins will be claimed. 

If 80% of the balances go unclaimed, or their claims are disqualified for some reason, then the victims who remain in the game could get 100% back.

The claim period just closed, correct?  If so, then perhaps Kobayashi will issue a note with the statistics.

What data and documents were required to submit a claim?

For verified members it was a pretty straightforward procedure. It was all automated and required no extra paperwork if you knew/remembered your login info to the original MtGox site. I personally went with my claiming via Kraken. Thought it was better than going all over this as a single owner.

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[Amitabh S]

I tried claiming but couldn't login and didn't get a password reset mail. (I didn't have anything there, but wanted to see the process)

Can anyone explain how the process was, at what stage it is currently at and how much have you got back?

[JorgeStolfi]

I tried claiming but couldn't login and didn't get a password reset mail. (I didn't have anything there, but wanted to see the process)

Can anyone explain how the process was, at what stage it is currently at and how much have you got back?

The period for filing claims ended today, May 29, Japan time.  The claims will now be evaluated by the trustee, and he has until September 29 or thereabouts to decide which are valid and how much each client will actually get back.

[spud21]

I tried claiming but couldn't login and didn't get a password reset mail. (I didn't have anything there, but wanted to see the process)

Can anyone explain how the process was, at what stage it is currently at and how much have you got back?

It might still be possible to claim through the Kraken after the May 29th deadline according to this post.

There are statements from the Kraken support which point in this direction. But I would not count on it blindly.
All depends on the trustee and the court.

Kraken will be accepting applications past the May 29th (Japan time) deadline and we do expect the trustee/court to be flexible about accepting late claims. I think you can trust that a slightly late claim will be accepted, but shouldn't count on the idea that you can submit it weeks late and still have it accepted. So no need to panic about the exact deadline or resort to an offline claim, but get your claim submitted as soon as possible to be safe. 

This thread explains how to claim through the Kraken.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1062437.0

[macsga]

I too expected some deadline flexibility like Dargo has already posted (thanks for the link btw) but wouldn't bet on a 100% successful claim after 1-2 weeks time. If you're up to it, don't push your luck - it's time to rush. I would again recommend the Kraken site, since it's the best chance we'll get (a fraction) of our bitcoins back.

[Blazed]

I filed my claim the day it opened via Kraken. Do you guys really think we will get a single satoshi back from this? I am not holding my breath....

[JorgeStolfi]

It would be very risky for Kobayashi to accept claims after the posted deadline (which was determined by teh court, not by Kobayashi, and specifically says "Japan time").

Victims who posted their claims in due time may decide to challenge those late claims, since they will reduce their own refunds.  If such challenges go to court, I bet that the court will insist that the deadline be strictly respected; and Kobayashi will probably get sent to bed without dessert.

It is extremely irresponsible of Kraken to tell victims that late filings will be accepted, without first asking Kobayashi and getting his explicit approval

[spud21]

Does anyone know how many Bitcoins are likely to be returned after all the lawyers fees and other expenses have been deducted? Lawyers fees alone can be astronomically high.

[macsga]

I filed my claim the day it opened via Kraken. Do you guys really think we will get a single satoshi back from this? I am not holding my breath....

First of, being Goxxed and Vircurexxed (twice), I'm not at all sure that ANY exchange out there is 100% legitimate. The difference with Kraken is the excellent customer support and the fast transaction system (literally hours). I don't know if this will continue as time passes by, or after they incorporate the huge (?) MtGox customer base. Right now, I've put my hopes on them just for one reason. They pay attention on the details on how to run a cryptocoin exchange. The other alternative would've been to run the process myself. Well...

It is extremely irresponsible of Kraken to tell victims that late filings will be accepted, without first asking Kobayashi and getting his explicit approval

Jorge, Dargo works for Kraken. When a statement like that goes out in public that means it automatically risks their image. I'd bet they had inside info since they were the chosen ones from all the exchanges to handle the MtGox case...

[Brewins]

Does anyone know how many Bitcoins are likely to be returned after all the lawyers fees and other expenses have been deducted? Lawyers fees alone can be astronomically high.

some people said 25% in other topics(can't remember where I've read it, so can't give sources)

But I guess won't be much, and can perfectly be 0 or very close to 0

[JorgeStolfi]

Does anyone know how many Bitcoins are likely to be returned after all the lawyers fees and other expenses have been deducted? Lawyers fees alone can be astronomically high.

some people said 25% in other topics(can't remember where I've read it, so can't give sources)

But I guess won't be much, and can perfectly be 0 or very close to 0

Among the documents in the mtgox site are detailed reports by Kobayashi about the situation of the spoils.  (Scroll to the end, each PDF includes an Engish translation.)

His fees,and the fees of all consultants that he has hired, will be quite substantial, but small compared to the 200 kBTC and several M USD that are left.

These spoils are only 20-25% of the sum total of all client account balances at the time of the collapse, so that is the basic guess for the percentage that will be returned.  The exact amount will depend on how many peopel file a claim, and how many claims will be accepted as valid by Kobayashi.

But AFAIK it is not yet known whether he can return the BTC as BTC, or he will have to auction them to convert them to JPY.

[JorgeStolfi]

Jorge, Dargo works for Kraken. When a statement like that goes out in public that means it automatically risks their image. I'd bet they had inside info since they were the chosen ones from all the exchanges to handle the MtGox case...

Maybe...

Sorry to say this, but it seems that most bitcoiners simply refuse to understand that the legal system does not work at all like an internet forum or bitcoin statup.  We saw it in hundreds of scams, from MtGOX to Neo&Bee to the bizarre capers of Ver x Ripple and Ver x OKCoin: bitcoiners are totally naive when it comes to laws and courts.  Perhaps it is a consequence of the libertarian beliefs, but bitcoiners seem unable and unwilling to distinguish their wishes from their rights, their dreams from reality...

There is no "being nice" in law.  The whole point of it is to suppress the conflicting opinions and wishes of the two parties, and replace them by supposedly blind rules, mechanical procedures, and unquestionable decisions by impartial judges.

Accepting claims after a precise, court-mandated deadline is quite against that spirit.  I don't think that even Kobyashi could authorize that.  Kraken promising to do so without prior approval by Kobayashi (that is what the quote said) is more likely to be wishful thinking and recklessness than inside information.  Them being contracted to handle the claim collection does not give them authority to override what the court expressely determined.

[Karpeles]

Don't worry, the best efforts are being made to make everyone receive the fairest part of what has been left by the hackist thieves.

Regards,

Karpeles

[spud21]

Does anyone know how many Bitcoins are likely to be returned after all the lawyers fees and other expenses have been deducted? Lawyers fees alone can be astronomically high.

some people said 25% in other topics(can't remember where I've read it, so can't give sources)

But I guess won't be much, and can perfectly be 0 or very close to 0

Among the documents in the mtgox site are detailed reports by Kobayashi about the situation of the spoils.  (Scroll to the end, each PDF includes an Engish translation.)

His fees,and the fees of all consultants that he has hired, will be quite substantial, but small compared to the 200 kBTC and several M USD that are left.

These spoils are only 20-25% of the sum total of all client account balances at the time of the collapse, so that is the basic guess for the percentage that will be returned.  The exact amount will depend on how many peopel file a claim, and how many claims will be accepted as valid by Kobayashi.

But AFAIK it is not yet known whether he can return the BTC as BTC, or he will have to auction them to convert them to JPY.

I read that MtGox was still paying Tibanne huge sums of money after it closed. The link below puts the figure at $420,000. Fortunately, Tibanne is now bankrupt and as you say even $420,000 deducted from the estimated amount MtGox has left will not make much of a dent in it.

http://www.newsbtc.com/2014/10/22/mt-gox-trustee-approving-large-payments-tibanne/

If you’ve been following the Mt. Gox debacle, you’re probably already aware of a website called GOXDOX.org, whose main goal is to “[call] bullshit on behalf of [Mt. Gox] creditors.”

The site has thus far been a reliable hub for news related to the ongoing bankruptcy case of the failed bitcoin exchange, and a post published on Tuesday claims that Mt. Gox’s bankruptcy trustee has paid out large sums of money to Tibanne K.K., Mt. Gox’s parent company run by Mark Karpeles.

GOXDOX writes:

"Straight from the Trustee’s bank book, more cash payments to Tibanne K.K. from the bankrupt estate of MTGOX – how much money has Mark taken from creditors while still paying $20,000/month rent to live in a penthouse apartment?
True indeed that Karpeles does live in a swanky apartment, but is that really where the money is going? I simply don’t have the answer, and Karpeles himself has previously told me that he refuses to speak on any matter related to Mt. Gox (I presume he’s under some sort of gag order)."

So just how much has been paid out?

According to GOXDOX, that number is pegged at $420,000, labeled as “outsourcing fees.”

The website included documents (in Japanese) to support their claims, which you can view here.

[Tzupy]

Would it be legally possible for Kobayashi to reimburse the MtGox customers in 2 steps?
I mean, Karpeles still has a lot of depositor fiat in his possession, that he has no intention to give back.
The trustee only has 202k BTC and some fiat available, and likely won't be able to get the rest of the fiat from Karpeles anytime soon.
It may take another year or more until some of the fiat that Karpeles loaned to himself could be recovered.

[macsga]

Would it be legally possible for Kobayashi to reimburse the MtGox customers in 2 steps?
I mean, Karpeles still has a lot of depositor fiat in his possession, that he has no intention to give back.
The trustee only has 202k BTC and some fiat available, and likely won't be able to get the rest of the fiat from Karpeles anytime soon.
It may take another year or more until some of the fiat that Karpeles loaned to himself could be recovered.

If this is legally provable, I bet Kobayashi won't leave it unnoticed. I mean there's already an order on him returning about $1M back in fiat (which up to date, he didn't) isn't it? But; yes, I think too, this may be the most possible scenario Tzupy.

[Tzupy]

Quoting from the 22nd April 2015 report, a total of about 1.3 billion yen (over 10 million dollars) is owed by Karpeles to MtGox depositors.

1. TIBANNE Co., Ltd.
The bankrupt entity has recognized that it has loan receivables in the amount of
JPY 772,791,001 (based on the settlement accounts of the bankrupt entity as of
April 24, 2014) against TIBANNE Co., Ltd., which is the parent company of the
bankrupt entity. Therefore, I claimed for repayment of the loan receivables
against TIBANNE Co., Ltd. However, I could not receive any repayment from
TIBANNE Co., Ltd.
Therefore, I filed for the commencement of bankruptcy proceedings against
TIBANNE Co., Ltd. on January 29, 2015. As a result, on January 30, 2015, the
court ordered that such bankruptcy proceedings be commenced (Tokyo District
Court 2015 (fu) No. 585). I plan to collect the receivables properly by filing a
bankruptcy claim form during the process of the bankruptcy proceedings against
TIBANNE Co., Ltd.
2. K.K. Shade 3D
Since the bankrupt entity has loan receivables in the amount of JPY 338,139,321
(amount based on the settlement accounts of the bankrupt entity as of April 24,
2014) against K.K. Shade 3D, which is a subsidiary of TIBANNE Co., Ltd., I
claimed for repayment against K.K. Shade 3D and continue to negotiate such
repayment. If voluntary repayment from K.K. Shade 3D is not likely to occur, I
plan to consider taking necessary legal action.
3. K.K. Bitcoin. Cafe
The bankrupt entity has filed its proof of bankruptcy claims (consisting of loan
receivables in the amount of JPY 60,000,000 and accrued interest) in the process
of the bankruptcy proceedings against K.K. Bitcoin. Cafe. However, one of the
creditors of K.K. Bitcoin. Cafe objected to the full amount of the aforementioned
bankruptcy claims. In response, I filed a petition for bankruptcy claim
assessment against such creditor to the Tokyo District Court in November 2014.
The Tokyo District Court then determined on February 12, 2015 that the assessed
value of such bankruptcy claim is the same as the value stated in the filed
bankruptcy claims. However, the above creditor filed an action to object to the
bankruptcy claim assessment on March 11, 2015. The case is currently heard
before the Tokyo District Court as the case for the objection to the bankruptcy
claim assessment (2015 (wa) No. 6570).
4. Robert Marie Mark Karpeles
Since the bankrupt entity has loan receivables in the amount of JPY 136,175,781
(amount based on the settlement accounts of the bankrupt entity as of April 24,
2014) against Robert Marie Mark Karpeles, who is the representative director of
the bankrupt entity, I claimed for repayment of the loan by him and continue to
negotiate such repayment. However, since he has so far not presented any
repayment plan to me, if voluntary repayment from him is not likely to occur, I
plan to consider taking necessary legal action.

[JorgeStolfi]

Would it be legally possible for Kobayashi to reimburse the MtGox customers in 2 steps?

I don't know whether that is legally possible, but mutiple payouts should be technically possible once the claims are collected and validated.

If that is the case, I suppose that distribution of the existing JPY assets could be made immediately.  The BTC assets would depend on whether they have to be converted to JPY or not.  Then, more rounds should happen if and when the legal actions against Tibanne and the other parties yield more funds.

[macsga]

Quoting from the 22nd April 2015 report, a total of about 1.3 billion yen (over 10 million dollars) is owed by Karpeles to MtGox depositors.

I wasn't sure about the amount. It was 10M then. The critical question is then "Will he give them back?" 

[Tzupy]

Quoting from the 22nd April 2015 report, a total of about 1.3 billion yen (over 10 million dollars) is owed by Karpeles to MtGox depositors.

I wasn't sure about the amount. It was 10M then. The critical question is then "Will he give them back?" 

Since Kobayashi opened bankruptcy proceedings of Tibanne, he will be forced to give a % back (how much % is the question), quoting:

While I have continually and strongly claimed against TIBANNE Co., Ltd.
(“TIBANNE”), which is the parent company of MtGox Co., Ltd. (“MtGox”), for
repayment of the loan receivables that MtGox has against TIBANNE, repayment from
TIBANNE has not yet been made. Accordingly, on January 29, 2015, I applied for
commencement of the bankruptcy proceeding for TIBANNE, as a creditor thereof, with
permission from the Tokyo District Court. In response, on January 30, 2015, the
Tokyo District Court issued an order of commencement of the bankruptcy proceeding
for TIBANNE.
I, as the Bankruptcy Trustee of MtGox, will continue to make efforts to take
necessary measures with respect to collection of receivables due from affiliated
companies, etc.