MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]

[DrApricot]

It should be noted that CCI, a Swiss investigative firm, has already documented a pattern of manipulation by Mt. Gox's European banks which are linked to its Japanese ones. See: http://www.mtgoxinvestigation.com/

Hm, this site looks very suspicious to me.  Could be an attempt to steal people's data, or worse.

The CCI web site has been up there for months, and is fairly regularly updated. I will of course let them defend themselves, yet have never really heard any complaints about data theft. A quick google search turned up absolutely nothing. I'd be curious if anyone else has had a negative experience with this company. It never hurts to be a little cautious.

I found their "update" page to be quite enlightening:
http://www.mtgoxinvestigation.com/updates.html

They may be legit, of course.  Or they may be legit but not as competent and effective as they say they are.

That list of "updates" is mostly pointers to articles and news published by other people.  I don't see them doing much on their own...

 

Sorry, here's a link to their main web site:
http://cc-int.eu/
I googled some more and found it. The head man is Dr. Simon Perry.  Here's a bio posted on their site. Sounds legit

Dr. Simon Perry – President

Dr. Perry is currently the Co-Director of the Program in Policing and Homeland Security Studies at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Institute of Criminology, Faculty of Law. He is also a Professor in the Graduate School and involved in research with colleagues in Israel and U.S.

Dr. Perry joined the Israeli Police in 1978 and has served in a variety of positions during the past 30 years. Between 2003 and 2007 he was Police Attaché & Liaison Officer to the USA & Canada, Israeli Police & Ministry of Public Security (at rank of Brigadier General). He was Responsible for cooperation and coordination between the Israeli National Police and law enforcement and intelligence agencies on the federal, state and local levels, primarily in the areas of fighting international organized crime and terrorism. He was also responsible for cooperation between the Ministry of Public Security in Israel and the Department of Homeland Security and Homeland Security Agencies on state and local level. During these four years was involved in many operational cases as well as in exchanging information and training many law enforcement units and commanding officers. He also served as Head of Narcotics Department and Head of European Operations at the Israeli National Police.

Earlier he served as Commander of Intelligence and Operational Division in the National Unit for Exposing Severe, International and Organized Crime. He commanded hundreds of police officers in charge of collecting intelligence information and evidence using live and technical sources, undercover agents, surveillance units as well as analysis of intelligence information. The Unit deals with national and international organized crime, sensitive investigations on a national level as well as terror and counter-espionage.

In 1997 he was Head of Interpol and International Relations at the Intelligence Department in the Israel Police Headquarters. Responsibilities included: Management of all Interpol activities in Israel and abroad including representing the Israel Police abroad; exchanging intelligence information and evidence though Interpol and legal channels. The position also included the management of international relations of the Israel Police with law enforcement organizations abroad.

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[bernard75]

Lets just hope there was a LOT of criminal money there, which is not being claimed.

[OhShei8e]

Sorry, I am not sure I understand what you mean.

I simply suggest Guerrilla tactics instead to attack Kobayashi directly. I think he is a lawyer with several years of professional experience. Moreover, even in Japan. I'm sure he has excellent contacts and certainly knows his stuff. So we have no chance. It's as if Barbarians attack the Roman Empire in an open field battle. We are just wasting time and energy. We only can lose.

I have set myself a deadline to the end of the year. I'm hoping to have developed my tracking system then so far that we can make the 200,000 coins worthless. So Kobayashi can no longer sell them. If he does not give it back to us, they lose their value. We can not beat him legally but we can blackmail him in the normal manner because we are many. With this I had the best experience in the past. I'm an active union member. We can strike! No Gox victim will accept the 200,000 Gox Coins if Kobayashi embezzled these coins. In my view a clear and neat solution. There is no need for a lawyer.

By the way: I have no problems with lawyers, but I think they do not help us here.

[Keyser Soze]

I simply suggest Guerrilla tactics instead to attack Kobayashi directly. I think he is a lawyer with several years of professional experience. Moreover, even in Japan. I'm sure he has excellent contacts and certainly knows his stuff. So we have no chance. It's as if Barbarians attack the Roman Empire in an open field battle. We are just wasting time and energy. We only can lose.

I have set myself a deadline to the end of the year. I'm hoping to have developed my tracking system then so far that we can make the 200,000 coins worthless. So Kobayashi can no longer sell them. If he does not give it back to us, they lose their value. We can not beat him legally but we can blackmail him in the normal manner because we are many. With this I had the best experience in the past. I'm an active union member. We can strike! No Gox victim will accept the 200,000 Gox Coins if Kobayashi embezzled these coins. In my view a clear and neat solution. There is no need for a lawyer.

By the way: I have no problems with lawyers, but I think they do not help us here.

Good luck getting enough people to support the blacklist for it to have the desired effect. There have been countless topics about blacklisting, generally (from my observation) the majority supports fungibility instead.

[JorgeStolfi]

I have set myself a deadline to the end of the year. I'm hoping to have developed my tracking system then so far that we can make the 200,000 coins worthless. So Kobayashi can no longer sell them. If he does not give it back to us, they lose their value. We can not beat him legally but we can blackmail him in the normal manner because we are many. With this I had the best experience in the past. I'm an active union member. We can strike! No Gox victim will accept the 200,000 Gox Coins if Kobayashi embezzled these coins. In my view a clear and neat solution. There is no need for a lawyer.

I am feeling a bit dizzy now.  More than 600'000 coins were stolen or embezzled from MtGOX by parties unknown, an established bankruptcy executor was duly appointed by a Japanese court with the mission to take away what is left from Mark and distribute it to the victims in the fairest way possible --- and somehow HE is now the villain against whom the weapons must be turned?

[bernard75]

I am feeling a bit dizzy now.  More than 600'000 coins were stolen or embezzled BY MtGOX by parties unknown, an established bankruptcy executor was duly appointed by a Japanese court with the mission to take away what is left from Mark and distribute it to the victims in the fairest way possible --- and somehow HE is now the villain against whom the weapons must be turned?

Fixed that for you.

[JorgeStolfi]

I am feeling a bit dizzy now.  More than 600'000 coins were stolen or embezzled BY MtGOX by parties unknown, an established bankruptcy executor was duly appointed by a Japanese court with the mission to take away what is left from Mark and distribute it to the victims in the fairest way possible --- and somehow HE is now the villain against whom the weapons must be turned?

Fixed that for you.

For me, Mark is indeed the chief suspect, but I know no evidence that will rule out other possibilities -- including embezzlement by some other MtGOX manager or staff, theft of paper wallets by a physical intruder, hacking by a complete outsider, etc..

The people who were suing MtGOX in the US claimed to have evidence of wrongdoing, but unfortunately the withdrew their lawsuit to support the Sunlot proposal.

We can only hope hope that a police investigation will someday find the culprit.

[DrApricot]

I am feeling a bit dizzy now.  More than 600'000 coins were stolen or embezzled BY MtGOX by parties unknown, an established bankruptcy executor was duly appointed by a Japanese court with the mission to take away what is left from Mark and distribute it to the victims in the fairest way possible --- and somehow HE is now the villain against whom the weapons must be turned?

Fixed that for you.

It's been six months since the collapse. The parties unknown behind the Mt Gox take-down have consistently been underestimated. If not, they would already have been brought to justice. Using guerrilla tactics would only be playing into their hands. They want to claim bitcoin is only used by renegades and hackers, needs some kind of very strong regulation, and exchanges should only be managed by "professionals" (namely, them).

Kobayashi is really an enigma, and sometimes I wonder if he is not another collective pseudonym  like Satoshi Nakamoto. Call him an international man of mystery.

[JorgeStolfi]

Kobayashi is really an enigma, and sometimes I wonder if he is not another collective pseudonym  like Satoshi Nakamoto. Call him an international man of mystery.

I don't see anything exceptional about him.  Bankruptcy proceedings are always v e r y  s l o w things.  From the papers given out at the recent meeting, he has done quite a bit of work actually.  The basic idea may seem simple (collect the remaining assets, collect claims, etc.) but there are lots of details that do not show up in the report.  For instance, MtGOX used several banks through its life, had branches and dealings in other countries, etc.. Also, a bankruptcy case was opened against MtGOX in the US, and it was not long ago that the US judge finally recognized the precedence of the Japanese courts.

Furthermore, Kobayashi had to learn enough about bitcoin to avoid mistakes that could cost him millions in lawsuits.  We don't know whether  those 220'000 BTC were really "lost and found", but the episode suggests that MtGOX's accounting must be a frightening mess.   I bet that Kobayashi still hasn't decided how he will handle the claims -- hence the postponement.

[DrApricot]

For me, Mark is indeed the chief suspect, but I know no evidence that will rule out other possibilities -- including embezzlement by some other MtGOX manager or staff, theft of paper wallets by a physical intruder, hacking by a complete outsider, etc..

The people who were suing MtGOX in the US claimed to have evidence of wrongdoing, but unfortunately the withdrew their lawsuit to support the Sunlot proposal.

We can only hope hope that a police investigation will someday find the culprit.

Let's not give Mizuho a pass. There's still that missing $27 million in fiat bank deposits.

Mizuho held non-Bitcoin currency on behalf of Tokyo-based Mt. Gox and its customers, according to the amended U.S. complaint by Gregory Greene, an Illinois resident who [allegedly] lost $25,000 when [the exchange] shut down,” said Reuters. “The U.S. suit accuses Mizuho of knowing of Mt. Gox’s fraud, of not segregating funds that belong to Mt. Gox from those of its customers and of continuing to provide banking services that inflated losses for Bitcoin customers.

http://thediplomat.com/2014/03/japans-mizuho-bank-the-latest-defendant-in-mt-gox-bitcoin-suit/

[OhShei8e]

I have set myself a deadline to the end of the year. I'm hoping to have developed my tracking system then so far that we can make the 200,000 coins worthless. So Kobayashi can no longer sell them. If he does not give it back to us, they lose their value. We can not beat him legally but we can blackmail him in the normal manner because we are many. With this I had the best experience in the past. I'm an active union member. We can strike! No Gox victim will accept the 200,000 Gox Coins if Kobayashi embezzled these coins. In my view a clear and neat solution. There is no need for a lawyer.

I am feeling a bit dizzy now.  More than 600'000 coins were stolen or embezzled from MtGOX by parties unknown, an established bankruptcy executor was duly appointed by a Japanese court with the mission to take away what is left from Mark and distribute it to the victims in the fairest way possible --- and somehow HE is now the villain against whom the weapons must be turned?

I do not blame anyone. But Gox had half a year to give some evidence of the stolen coins. I can understand that there is a big chaos. But I do not understand that all coins disappear from Goxs sight. There are no clear statements from Kobayashi about the 600,000 coins . And the Tokyo Police Launch Investigation just a month ago. What the hell they have done in the meantime? And than they told that they suspect roughly 27,000 BTC were stolen from the website. Sorry, but WTF? 27,000 BTC? What about the others?

If these 600,000 really never exist, why is Mark not be prosecuted because of delayed filing of insolvency and running a ponzi? Mark already has a new company on a similar field. He even wants again to accept Bitcoins. How crazy is that? This is so as if Bernard Madoff would have directly launched a new company in the financial sector.

Someone have to explain this. But I have given up hope that Mr. Kobayashi will somehow help us in the matter. I would love to redlist the 600,000 Coins. But of course no one will tell us where they are or whether they have ever exist. We only have 200,000 and that's only because the community have found them. Kobayashi has no idea and does nothing in this point.  I'm sure, if people does not have reveal the cause, the 200,000 would have been "disappeared" too.

[DrApricot]

I have set myself a deadline to the end of the year. I'm hoping to have developed my tracking system then so far that we can make the 200,000 coins worthless.

I am feeling a bit dizzy now.  More than 600'000 coins were stolen or embezzled from MtGOX by parties unknown, an established bankruptcy executor was duly appointed by a Japanese court with the mission to take away what is left from Mark and distribute it to the victims in the fairest way possible --- and somehow HE is now the villain against whom the weapons must be turned?

I do not blame anyone. But Gox had half a year to give some evidence of the stolen coins. I can understand that there is a big chaos. But I do not understand that all coins disappear from Goxs sight. There are no clear statements from Kobayashi about the 600,000 coins . And the Tokyo Police Launch Investigation just a month ago. What the hell they have done in the meantime? And than they told that they suspect roughly 27,000 BTC were stolen from the website. Sorry, but WTF? 27,000 BTC? What about the others?

It's perhaps significant that Kobayashi works for Nagashima Ohno & Tsunematsu, a high end Japanese law firm specializing in mergers and acquisitions. At the recent creditor's meeting in Japan, he mentioned his plans to meet with potential purchasers of the bankrupt exchange's assets. This suggests the idea from the beginning may have been to sell Mt. Gox off to a company such as Sunlot or Bitocean Japan. If so, then the liquidation could be more or less Kabuki theater until such time as Kobayashi and company have finalized an acquisition. He presents himself as merely a neutral party representing the interests of creditors, yet in fact may have an agenda for what kind of outcome he wants to see.

[JorgeStolfi]

We only have 200,000 and that's only because the community have found them. Kobayashi has no idea and does nothing in this point.  I'm sure, if people does not have reveal the cause, the 200,000 would have been "disappeared" too.

Where did you get that from?  Mark himself claimed that he found the 220'000 BTC in an old-format wallet, after filing for bankruptcy.  Whether he had really forgotten about them is an open question, but AFAIK it was him who "found" them and told the court about them.  Kobayashi had them transferred to an address that he controls (it says so in the papers given out at the last meeting). 

[JorgeStolfi]

At the recent creditor's meeting in Japan, he mentioned his plans to meet with potential purchasers of the bankrupt exchange's assets. This suggests the idea from the beginning may have been to sell Mt. Gox off to a company such as Sunlot or Bitocean Japan. If so, then the liquidation could be more or less Kabuki theater until such time as Kobayashi and company have finalized an acquisition. He presents himself as merely a neutral party representing the interests of creditors, yet in fact may have an agenda for what kind of outcome he wants to see.

Methinks you are barking up the wrong tree.  Several people have been desperately trying to stop the bankruptcy process, since before it was filed, including many big clients and former MtGOX management.  There are plenty of possible explanations for their despair.  Sunlot has succeeded in stopping the US lawsuit, and all those people must now be pestering Kobayashi with proposals to let them take control.  Sunlot has already promised immunity to Gay-Bouchery and Jed Mccaleb, and would not answer when asked what they would do about Mark. 

[PhydeauxLeChien]

It's perhaps significant that Kobayashi works for Nagashima Ohno & Tsunematsu, a high end Japanese law firm specializing in mergers and acquisitions. At the recent creditor's meeting in Japan, he mentioned his plans to meet with potential purchasers of the bankrupt exchange's assets. This suggests the idea from the beginning may have been to sell Mt. Gox off to a company such as Sunlot or Bitocean Japan. If so, then the liquidation could be more or less Kabuki theater until such time as Kobayashi and company have finalized an acquisition. He presents himself as merely a neutral party representing the interests of creditors, yet in fact may have an agenda for what kind of outcome he wants to see.

NO&T are one of the "big four" law firms in japan, with hundreds of lawyers - they cannot really be said to specialise in anything. In addition, Nobuaki Kobayashi specializes in bankruptcy and restructuring as well as M&A.

http://www.noandt.com/en/lawyers/nbk.php

[DrApricot]

At the recent creditor's meeting in Japan, he mentioned his plans to meet with potential purchasers of the bankrupt exchange's assets. This suggests the idea from the beginning may have been to sell Mt. Gox off to a company such as Sunlot or Bitocean Japan. If so, then the liquidation could be more or less Kabuki theater until such time as Kobayashi and company have finalized an acquisition. He presents himself as merely a neutral party representing the interests of creditors, yet in fact may have an agenda for what kind of outcome he wants to see.

Methinks you are barking up the wrong tree.  Several people have been desperately trying to stop the bankruptcy process, since before it was filed, including many big clients and former MtGOX management.  There are plenty of possible explanations for their despair.  Sunlot has succeeded in stopping the US lawsuit, and all those people must now be pestering Kobayashi with proposals to let them take control.  Sunlot has already promised immunity to Gay-Bouchery and Jed Mccaleb, and would not answer when asked what they would do about Mark. 

You might be completely right about me barking up the wrong tree. I only meant the circumstances of this situation are quite unusual, and there is a need to think outside-the-box. I'm not sure you'll get that from a typical M&A firm. A quick google search for this company yields lots of links about mergers, etc. As Maslow once said, "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail".

I'm not sure Mt. Gox should have even declared bankruptcy. Although it allegedly once held 850,000 btc, as now 220,000 have been admitted found, then the company could have continued operating on a fractional reserve basis like a bank. If the real reason for the bankruptcy was a freeze placed on their fiat bank accounts, and not "disappeared" bitcoins, then that issue should have been negotiated with Mizuho Bank before declaring bk. Mt. Gox may have been the recipient of very poor legal advice, and it would make more sense now to somehow roll back the bankruptcy proceeding instead of proposing a sale of assets.

[Imerman2]

I've not watched this whole scenario for awhile, but Gox stated publicly they had a cold wallet with an average of 98% of their total Bitcoin holdings in it.  How can someone have stolen these coins?  Even if they had a hacker who stole coins from within the business itself (Karpeles mentioned in one interview that one bit of advice he would give other Bitcoin companies would be hiring full-time security guards) how can they have stolen any of the coins in the cold wallet?  And if the paper wallets were stolen, it would seem there would be some sort of security and/or a limited number of people with access to the coins making it easy to determine who the criminal was.

Finally, and this is just a hunch, but Charlie Shrem was arrested in January 2014 for money laundering (Mt Gox went offline in February 2014) after working with Federal authorities on ways to regulate Bitcoin during which he revealed different "money laundering" services he had performed in the past in the hopes that: 1. The Feds would be lenient because he was helping them learn how to regulate Bitcoin and 2.  Bitcoin was originally not legally considered property so money laundering was technically impossible in the early days of its release.  Seeing that Charlie Shrem was put under house arrest for information he voluntarily gave up, it seems likely that some of the information he released could have implicated Mark Karpeles in a criminal investigation of a similar sort and that could be where the shenanigans began.

This story still makes no sense to me, all I know is that something is very fishy, whether it is coming from Gox or governments, and seeing the track records of governments my bet is that they're fucking with us, though I'm not sure exactly how.

[OhShei8e]

I've not watched this whole scenario for awhile, but Gox stated publicly they had a cold wallet with an average of 98% of their total Bitcoin holdings in it.  How can someone have stolen these coins?  Even if they had a hacker who stole coins from within the business itself (Karpeles mentioned in one interview that one bit of advice he would give other Bitcoin companies would be hiring full-time security guards) how can they have stolen any of the coins in the cold wallet?  And if the paper wallets were stolen, it would seem there would be some sort of security and/or a limited number of people with access to the coins making it easy to determine who the criminal was.

Last year Gregory Maxwell gives a good explanation:

http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/31958583/

But it need not have to been this way. Nobody knows. And from the people who really need to know no one tells us something.  

[DrApricot]

This story still makes no sense to me, all I know is that something is very fishy, whether it is coming from Gox or governments, and seeing the track records of governments my bet is that they're fucking with us, though I'm not sure exactly how.

Start with the obvious. Kobayashi admits he now holds 220K Mt. Gox bitcoins worth over $100 million. No company that once had control over $100 million in liquid assets ever needed to declare bankruptcy, especially when it's only been around for three or so years. This bankruptcy is a hoax. It's designed to transfer control of these assets to someone else who has the deviousness and financial wherewithal to manipulate the legal system.

[OhShei8e]

We only have 200,000 and that's only because the community have found them. Kobayashi has no idea and does nothing in this point.  I'm sure, if people does not have reveal the cause, the 200,000 would have been "disappeared" too.

Where did you get that from?  Mark himself claimed that he found the 220'000 BTC in an old-format wallet, after filing for bankruptcy.  Whether he had really forgotten about them is an open question, but AFAIK it was him who "found" them and told the court about them.  Kobayashi had them transferred to an address that he controls (it says so in the papers given out at the last meeting).  

There have been discussions long before Mark admit it:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=490723.0
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1z37zw/mt_gox_has_at_least_200k_btc

Only one day later Mark published this statement (so funny to read in retrospect):

"As a result of our internal investigation, we found that a large amount
of bitcoins had disappeared. Although the complete extent is not yet known, we found
that approximately 750,000 bitcoins deposited by users and approximately 100,000 bitcoins belonging to us had disappeared.
We believe that there is a high probability that these bitcoins were
stolen as a result of an abuse of this bug and we have asked an expert to look at the
possibility of a criminal complaint and undertake proper procedures."

https://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/20140228-announcement_eng.pdf

And at this time we already knew that Gox still must have the 200,000. People went crazy about Mark. So Mark finally had to admit it as he could not deny it any longer without loosing every part of his credibility. And a few weeks later we had to learn that the complete transaction malleability story was a myth, see: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1403.6676v1.pdf