MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]

[DrApricot]

I am a US citizen who had more than $5000 USD stored in MtGox at the time of its collapse.
What action can I take right now to work towards getting my money back?

Citizenship is not important.  You should file a claim with the Japanese court-appointed liquidator, Mr. Nobuaky Kobayashi.  Links and information were posted in this thread a couple of weeks ago; look for "creditors meeting".  Some information is available in the MtGOX original website http://www.mtgox.com, but that site may still be managed by Mark, I dont know.

The deadline for filing claims was Nov/2014 but has been postponed to May/2015.  There is no date yet for when the spoils will be distributed.  Be prepared to get only 1/5 of your claim, at most.

You can't file claims yet.

The method for filing claims will be published on this site as soon as we are in a situation to announce it.

Correct. The situation is still rather liquid with the police investigating what happened to some of the bitcoins. I would say it's an open question exactly what proportion should be paid out in liquidation. It's not even clear how many bitcoins were originally present, so that makes it a little difficult to figure out the percentage missing. Opinions vary on what percentage of Mt. Gox bitcoins have been recovered, and there's a complete absence of any proof one way or the other. Hopefully, the police will eventually make known the results of their investigation.

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[bernard75]

I still dont understand why they dont release that damn claim form, its not like the forms or the situation will change anytime soon.

[JorgeStolfi]

You can't file claims yet.

The method for filing claims will be published on this site as soon as we are in a situation to announce it.

Correct. The situation is still rather liquid with the police investigating what happened to some of the bitcoins. I would say it's an open question exactly what proportion should be paid out in liquidation. It's not even clear how many bitcoins were originally present, so that makes it a little difficult to figure out the percentage missing. Opinions vary on what percentage of Mt. Gox bitcoins have been recovered, and there's a complete absence of any proof one way or the other. Hopefully, the police will eventually make known the results of their investigation.
[/quote]

Indeed, and then there is the question of what will Mr. Nobuaki consider to be your claim -- your final balance on MtGOX, or your deposits minus your withdrawals.

I find it totally bizarre that the former MrGOX clients do not seem to care for this question.  Or even understand it.
 

[bitcoinvest]

I still dont understand why they dont release that damn claim form, its not like the forms or the situation will change anytime soon.

I think it's very simple...

Do you remember Vircurex situation?

Do that for a momment and again think MtGox

Recentrly received  a big ammount of Cash from OkPay. Why send them to gox and not to clients?
And investigation have told us is ongoing.

my thought is that the have found 100% what happened and trying to reopen somehow the exchange without anyone "hurts"..
So they have to find the best way to tell us "the truth" and give back to owners the BTC. This will take some time to write the senario etc....

Claims are simple and i can't read anymore senarios... what you had available by the time closed? THAT IS YOUR PROPERTY and you can claim for it....

all the others are silly to me.... So when they extended the proof of claims i think they did that because there is no need to fiil it...
They have your documents etc (i don't know what will happen to non verified accounts but i don't care also)

So to close my thought, they will (THEY HAVE TO) return our BTC back. if not this will be written in modern History as the biggest inside theft....

But all those are just thoughts let's see....

[DrApricot]

I still dont understand why they dont release that damn claim form, its not like the forms or the situation will change anytime soon.

I think it's very simple...

Do you remember Vircurex situation?

Do that for a momment and again think MtGox

Recentrly received  a big ammount of Cash from OkPay. Why send them to gox and not to clients?
And investigation have told us is ongoing.

my thought is that the have found 100% what happened and trying to reopen somehow the exchange without anyone "hurts"..
So they have to find the best way to tell us "the truth" and give back to owners the BTC. This will take some time to write the senario etc....

Many threads of evidence do point in this direction. If so, then perhaps Mt. Gox can be reopened using Vircurex as the model under "mew" management and the watchful eye of JADA. The judge can dismiss the bankruptcy action, and there will be loud cheering all around. Time for a cold one!

[iikun]

I still dont understand why they dont release that damn claim form, its not like the forms or the situation will change anytime soon.

I think it's very simple...

Do you remember Vircurex situation?

Do that for a momment and again think MtGox

Recentrly received  a big ammount of Cash from OkPay. Why send them to gox and not to clients?
And investigation have told us is ongoing.

my thought is that the have found 100% what happened and trying to reopen somehow the exchange without anyone "hurts"..
So they have to find the best way to tell us "the truth" and give back to owners the BTC. This will take some time to write the senario etc....

Many threads of evidence do point in this direction. If so, then perhaps Mt. Gox can be reopened using Vircurex as the model under "mew" management and the watchful eye of JADA. The judge can dismiss the bankruptcy action, and there will be loud cheering all around. Time for a cold one!

my time in Japan tells me that this is absolutely not what is happening. Once a Japanese court has chosen to go one way they do not easily turn around. Ask this man:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/27/japanese-man-freed-death-row-retrial

Also, as to the question why the money is put into holding rather than being paid out, the answer is in the quote above from bernard75. They haven't established exactly who the clients are & who is owed what. So how could they possibly pay out??

optimism is good, but having blinders over your eyes looking for good to come isn't i'm afraid. We will still all be here come next year when Kobayashi finally gets off his ass & releases the claim form. (I bet that 6mil will be eaten up by his "fees" tho)

[DrApricot]

I still dont understand why they dont release that damn claim form, its not like the forms or the situation will change anytime soon.

I think it's very simple...

Do you remember Vircurex situation?

Do that for a momment and again think MtGox

Recentrly received  a big ammount of Cash from OkPay. Why send them to gox and not to clients?
And investigation have told us is ongoing.

my thought is that the have found 100% what happened and trying to reopen somehow the exchange without anyone "hurts"..
So they have to find the best way to tell us "the truth" and give back to owners the BTC. This will take some time to write the senario etc....

Many threads of evidence do point in this direction. If so, then perhaps Mt. Gox can be reopened using Vircurex as the model under "mew" management and the watchful eye of JADA. The judge can dismiss the bankruptcy action, and there will be loud cheering all around. Time for a cold one!

my time in Japan tells me that this is absolutely not what is happening. Once a Japanese court has chosen to go one way they do not easily turn around. Ask this man:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/27/japanese-man-freed-death-row-retrial

That was a truly horrendous story. Thanks for posting it. I'm glad they finally release that guy after 45 years. I thought the judge's basis for the death row man's release was interesting:

"It is unjust to detain the defendant further, as the possibility of his innocence has become clear to a respectable degree."

Were the court ever to to dismiss the Mt. Gox bankruptcy, its decision would likely need to appear both respectable as well as with the intent of doing justice in the matter.

[bitcoinvest]

I still dont understand why they dont release that damn claim form, its not like the forms or the situation will change anytime soon.

I think it's very simple...

Do you remember Vircurex situation?

Do that for a momment and again think MtGox

Recentrly received  a big ammount of Cash from OkPay. Why send them to gox and not to clients?
And investigation have told us is ongoing.

my thought is that the have found 100% what happened and trying to reopen somehow the exchange without anyone "hurts"..
So they have to find the best way to tell us "the truth" and give back to owners the BTC. This will take some time to write the senario etc....

Many threads of evidence do point in this direction. If so, then perhaps Mt. Gox can be reopened using Vircurex as the model under "mew" management and the watchful eye of JADA. The judge can dismiss the bankruptcy action, and there will be loud cheering all around. Time for a cold one!

my time in Japan tells me that this is absolutely not what is happening. Once a Japanese court has chosen to go one way they do not easily turn around. Ask this man:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/27/japanese-man-freed-death-row-retrial

Also, as to the question why the money is put into holding rather than being paid out, the answer is in the quote above from bernard75. They haven't established exactly who the clients are & who is owed what. So how could they possibly pay out??

optimism is good, but having blinders over your eyes looking for good to come isn't i'm afraid. We will still all be here come next year when Kobayashi finally gets off his ass & releases the claim form. (I bet that 6mil will be eaten up by his "fees" tho)

trully i don't see dreams about it or having blinders over my eyes. as i said it's a thought. your opinion might look right in same % with my opinion.
only time will tell

I want to mention about Japan..... that i am sure 1000% they want to clear the name and not having a black cloud above and i'm sure the investigation (i think it's over by now) will be very clear....

[JorgeStolfi]

Recentrly received  a big ammount of Cash from OkPay. Why send them to gox and not to clients?

Because they still don't know who the legitimate clients are, how much each is due, and therefore how big a slice of the leftovers (including that OKPay amount) each one will get.

my thought is that the have found 100% what happened and trying to reopen somehow the exchange without anyone "hurts"..

There are many people who would like to stop the liquidation and reopen MtGOX, presumably because they have dirty money in there, or don't want the truth about the "theft" to be found.  But the court has already decided that there is no hope to let MtGOX resume and pay all its obligations,  so the liquidation will go on.

Claims are simple and i can't read anymore senarios... what you had available by the time closed? THAT IS YOUR PROPERTY and you can claim for it... all the others are silly to me... [ ...] they will (THEY HAVE TO) return our BTC back.

The balance in your MtGOX account not your property; it was only a promise by MtGOX that they would send you so many BTC and so many dollars if you chose to withdraw it all.  Unfortunately, the spoils of MtGOX do not cover 1/5 of those promises.   For months, if not years, their clients were trading with coins and dollars that did not exist.

Client preferences and their opinions as to what is the "just" division are usually irrelevant in liquidatons.  The process is usually predefined very tightly so that the liquidator does not have to negotiate with thousands of creditors with different desires and opinions.   

Check how the Bernard Madoff liquidation was handled.  AFAIK the court ignored Madoff's inflated account balances and considered only the investor's deposits minus withdrawals.  I am told that this is the standard rule for liquidations, in the US and in Japan.

IF Kobayashi chooses to rely the final balances, rather than deposits minsu withdrawals, he may choose to distribute what is left of the BTC as BTC.  That has one advantage (saves him the work of auctioning them) but several potential legal problems.

However, to anyone who is not a fanatic bitcoiner, the demand to have the spoils returned as BTC rather than yen sound childish and irritating.  "Do those guys want their wealth back, or do they want to keep on playing their silly bitcoin game even in the court?"

I don't know what will happen to non verified accounts

I would be VERY surprised if those accounts will get any consideration.  The court will not deliver anything, yen or BTC, to people that are not fully identified.

if not this will be written in modern History as the biggest inside theft....

If those coins were really stolen, I believe that the stolen amount (500 M USD) is already way more than the largest bank heist/robbery in history.

If it was embezzlement by the MtGOX management or staff, however, I doubt that it will be among the top 10 largest.

[DrApricot]

if not this will be written in modern History as the biggest inside theft....

If those coins were really stolen, I believe that the stolen amount (500 M USD) is already way more than the largest bank heist/robbery in history.

If it was embezzlement by the MtGOX management or staff, however, I doubt that it will be among the top 10 largest.

The issue is that we don't really know what happened. If Mt. Gox was running a Ponzi like Bernie Madoff then you might be right about the trading having taken place with non-existent bitcoins.

If they were running a fractional reserve, or essentially a bucket shop, then the trades were also derivative in nature, and might have to be evaluated similar to a Ponzi.

However, if they were running neither Ponzi nor bucket shop, and trades were based on real bitcoins held in escrow, then final balances seems to be a more just way to divide the 220,000 bitcoins held by the trustee on behalf of Mt. Gox depositors.

[DrApricot]

There are many people who would like to stop the liquidation and reopen MtGOX, presumably because they have dirty money in there, or don't want the truth about the "theft" to be found.  But the court has already decided that there is no hope to let MtGOX resume and pay all its obligations,  so the liquidation will go on.

This may turn out to be the singular case wherein something different actually happens. The legal system is being forced to deal with bitcoin, and It is very ill-equipped for doing so. More disclosure about the facts of the closure would be most welcome once investigations are complete.

There was a recently published Harvard Law Review article about Silk Road and Mt. Gox. It's conclusion was:

There is little doubt that Bitcoin and the multitude of progeny crypto-currency platforms it spawned have the potential to fundamentally change our conception of money. All signs point to it becoming increasingly accessible and popular—brick and mortar retailers have started allowing the use of Bitcoin at their stores, allowing consumers to transact with Bitcoin in the “real” world in addition to online. In order to continue its challenge to our traditional system of financial transactions, however, it must contend with and react to our traditional legal structures. Either that, or it must evolve beyond them. The Silk Road and MtGox episodes are early suggestions that crypto-currency technology will not be able to circumvent the traditional legal system entirely. As Bitcoin grows in prevalence, so does the law’s interest in being able to reach it.http://jolt.law.harvard.edu/digest/digest-note/the-silk-road-and-mtgox-lessons-in-law-for-bitcoin?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=the-silk-road-and-mtgox-lessons-in-law-for-bitcoin

[iikun]

I still dont understand why they dont release that damn claim form, its not like the forms or the situation will change anytime soon.

I think it's very simple...

Do you remember Vircurex situation?

Do that for a momment and again think MtGox

Recentrly received  a big ammount of Cash from OkPay. Why send them to gox and not to clients?
And investigation have told us is ongoing.

my thought is that the have found 100% what happened and trying to reopen somehow the exchange without anyone "hurts"..
So they have to find the best way to tell us "the truth" and give back to owners the BTC. This will take some time to write the senario etc....

Many threads of evidence do point in this direction. If so, then perhaps Mt. Gox can be reopened using Vircurex as the model under "mew" management and the watchful eye of JADA. The judge can dismiss the bankruptcy action, and there will be loud cheering all around. Time for a cold one!

my time in Japan tells me that this is absolutely not what is happening. Once a Japanese court has chosen to go one way they do not easily turn around. Ask this man:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/27/japanese-man-freed-death-row-retrial

Also, as to the question why the money is put into holding rather than being paid out, the answer is in the quote above from bernard75. They haven't established exactly who the clients are & who is owed what. So how could they possibly pay out??

optimism is good, but having blinders over your eyes looking for good to come isn't i'm afraid. We will still all be here come next year when Kobayashi finally gets off his ass & releases the claim form. (I bet that 6mil will be eaten up by his "fees" tho)

trully i don't see dreams about it or having blinders over my eyes. as i said it's a thought. your opinion might look right in same % with my opinion.
only time will tell

I want to mention about Japan..... that i am sure 1000% they want to clear the name and not having a black cloud above and i'm sure the investigation (i think it's over by now) will be very clear....

I think what you say about them wanting to clear their name is true in a sense, but I feel they will likely say btc is a young market, regulators cant be blamed etc etc, and at the end of the day the theft was (likely/certainly/) perpetrated by a French national.

Personally I hope you are right instead of me, but I feel the Japanese investigation will be done to death so that they cant be blamed for anything. The Japanese are quite particular about that..think Patton vs Montgomery in WWII.

[DrApricot]

I still dont understand why they dont release that damn claim form, its not like the forms or the situation will change anytime soon.

my thought is that the have found 100% what happened and trying to reopen somehow the exchange without anyone "hurts"..
So they have to find the best way to tell us "the truth" and give back to owners the BTC. This will take some time to write the senario etc....

Many threads of evidence do point in this direction. If so, then perhaps Mt. Gox can be reopened using Vircurex as the model under "mew" management and the watchful eye of JADA. The judge can dismiss the bankruptcy action, and there will be loud cheering all around. Time for a cold one!

 We will still all be here come next year when Kobayashi finally gets off his ass & releases the claim form. (I bet that 6mil will be eaten up by his "fees" tho)

I want to mention about Japan..... that i am sure 1000% they want to clear the name and not having a black cloud above and i'm sure the investigation (i think it's over by now) will be very clear....

Personally I hope you are right instead of me, but I feel the Japanese investigation will be done to death so that they cant be blamed for anything. The Japanese are quite particular about that..think Patton vs Montgomery in WWII.

The Japanese can't be blamed if the depositors take the initiative to voluntarily settle with the other creditor(s) (Mizuho Bank?) and the debtor, Mt. Gox. Not sure how this can be accomplished in Japan, yet it's a very common to have "compositions agreements" and "extension agreements" to settle out-of-court a bankruptcy proceeding in the U.S.

[JorgeStolfi]

The Japanese can't be blamed if the depositors take the initiative to voluntarily settle with the other creditor(s) (Mizuho Bank?) and the debtor, Mt. Gox. Not sure how this can be accomplished in Japan, yet it's a very common to have "compositions agreements" and "extension agreements" to settle out-of-court a bankruptcy proceeding in the U.S.

I would be very surprised if the court agrees to let some of the creditors negotiate the distribution of some of the assets.  The whole point of the bankruptcy process is to make sure that all creditors get their fair share of the spoils.  So all the depositors would have to be contacted and agree on the settlement plan.

[Brewins]

After several months, no money and no coins back.

I wonder about how people that bought Gox coins after withdraws have been suspended are feeling now about their "investment"

[JorgeStolfi]

After several months, no money and no coins back.

I wonder about how people that bought Gox coins after withdraws have been suspended are feeling now about their "investment"

Bankruptcy liquidations take a long time.  Creditors should not count on the outcome to pay their monthly bills. 

This one is extra complicated for several reasons.

On the other hand, liquidations are routine procedures and Mr. Kobayashi, I understand, is quite used to overseeing them. 

[rpietila]

The balance in your MtGOX account not your property; it was only a promise by MtGOX that they would send you so many BTC and so many dollars if you chose to withdraw it all.  Unfortunately, the spoils of MtGOX do not cover 1/5 of those promises.   For months, if not years, their clients were trading with coins and dollars that did not exist.

The above interpretation was not in the spirit of the TOS (nor in the letter, but I don't have all the versions that might have been applicable during the time). If it was, the mere act of sending BTC to Mt.Gox and receiving Goxbux would have been a taxable sale of one type of property and purchase of another (similar as you sell a house and buy one next to it).

This underlines the need for common reason in the action of governments/courts. If they rule something that is clearly contrary to what the people voluntarily have chosen to do, they cause more resentment, and people start to actively ignore government in everything they do, instead of passively.

Client preferences and their opinions as to what is the "just" division are usually irrelevant in liquidatons.  The process is usually predefined very tightly so that the liquidator does not have to negotiate with thousands of creditors with different desires and opinions.   

If the stuff stored is customer property, it is not touched and is just returned.

If it is customer accounts, it is not touched and is just returned.

If it is customer accounts, fraudulently intermixed with company funds, misrepresented, accounts fudged, half stolen, YES the liquidator has a problem with fake entries/claims and many others. Still he should rather make a distribution choice that closer represents the reality than one which is far from it.

However, to anyone who is not a fanatic bitcoiner, the demand to have the spoils returned as BTC rather than yen sound childish and irritating.  "Do those guys want their wealth back, or do they want to keep on playing their silly bitcoin game even in the court?"

Do you silly guys want your bank boxes' contents back? Can't you see the bank was raided and what little was left we openly auctioned to our buddies for the total proceeds of $532.75. This will now be distributed in a random way we choose.

No, I don't mean it's easy. But it is much easier than the bank boxes thing with jewels blown up everywhere and cash and charred documents... They do need to handle those with utmost care also.

I don't know what will happen to non verified accounts

I would be VERY surprised if those accounts will get any consideration.  The court will not deliver anything, yen or BTC, to people that are not fully identified.

According to natural law, if you identify using the same means that originally was the basis of identification, you should be able to have the same rights (or at minimum be required to upgrade your identification to a level acceptable to the court first). Dismissing non-verified ppl out-of-hand goes against everything (as pretty much all that the govts/"justice" system does, unfortunately).

[JorgeStolfi]

The balance in your MtGOX account not your property; it was only a promise by MtGOX that they would send you so many BTC and so many dollars if you chose to withdraw it all.  Unfortunately, the spoils of MtGOX do not cover 1/5 of those promises.   For months, if not years, their clients were trading with coins and dollars that did not exist.

The above interpretation was not in the spirit of the TOS (nor in the letter, but I don't have all the versions that might have been applicable during the time). If it was, the mere act of sending BTC to Mt.Gox and receiving Goxbux would have been a taxable sale of one type of property and purchase of another (similar as you sell a house and buy one next to it).

This underlines the need for common reason in the action of governments/courts. If they rule something that is clearly contrary to what the people voluntarily have chosen to do, they cause more resentment, and people start to actively ignore government in everything they do, instead of passively.

Client preferences and their opinions as to what is the "just" division are usually irrelevant in liquidatons.  The process is usually predefined very tightly so that the liquidator does not have to negotiate with thousands of creditors with different desires and opinions.   

If the stuff stored is customer property, it is not touched and is just returned.

If it is customer accounts, it is not touched and is just returned.

I am not trying to defend morally what the liquidator and the courts will do, only predict what, in my understanding, they are likely to think and do.

Bank accounts are legally different than safe deposit boxes.  The contents of the boxes are always your property, the bank is only renting you a space in their safe room.  On the other hand, the money that you deposit in you account, for all I know, becomes legally the property of the bank, and in return you get the legally binding promise of the bank to give you the same amount of money when you want to withdraw, under the applicable conditions and procedures.

AFAIK, the criterion of deposits minus withdrawals is what was used in Madoff's case and is the standard in US and Japanese law. I can even understand why it makes sense in legal logic; it is irrelevant for this thread whether it is morally justified or not.

I don't know how MtGOX was registered, and how the deposits were classified for Japanese tax purposes.  (In the US, AFAIK an exchange would have to register as some sort of bank or money transmitting service, and that is why there are still no exchanges in the US.)

MtGOX customers cannot just ignore what the law says.  The coins and cash are now legally in Kobayashi''s custody, and will be released only with the court's approval.

According to natural law, if you identify using the same means that originally was the basis of identification, you should be able to have the same rights (or at minimum be required to upgrade your identification to a level acceptable to the court first). Dismissing non-verified ppl out-of-hand goes against everything (as pretty much all that the govts/"justice" system does, unfortunately).

Sure, if you identify yourself and can prove to the court's satisfaction that you were the owner of a certain account, I suppose that will be treated like any verified account.  I assumed that the original question was not in that spirit.

I am afraid that proving ownership of unverified accounts will be difficult, however. Since Mark claims that he was hacked, and the database was ostensibly leaked against his will, hackers could also have stolen passwords and whatever other means was used to access the accounts -- unless it used sound crypto techniques that could not be broken by malware on MtGOX's servers.  Is that the case?

[DrApricot]

The Japanese can't be blamed if the depositors take the initiative to voluntarily settle with the other creditor(s) (Mizuho Bank?) and the debtor, Mt. Gox. Not sure how this can be accomplished in Japan, yet it's a very common to have "compositions agreements" and "extension agreements" to settle out-of-court a bankruptcy proceeding in the U.S.

I would be very surprised if the court agrees to let some of the creditors negotiate the distribution of some of the assets.  The whole point of the bankruptcy process is to make sure that all creditors get their fair share of the spoils.  So all the depositors would have to be contacted and agree on the settlement plan.

It is starting to look like no class of creditor, whether depositor or otherwise, will benefit very much should this liquidation continue. However, you are quite correct that communication between the various groups will be a real challenge. However, an effective out-of-court settlement of the bankruptcy could be a win-win solution for everyone concerned.

If we use the Kobayashi Maru test as an analogy, wherein Star Fleet cadets are tested on how they handle a no win situation, perhaps depositors would be wise to emulate the example of James T. Kirk instead of that of Mr. Spock. As you may recall, Kirk quietly reprograms the test simulator and comments that he doesn't believe in "no win" situations.  Even though he circumvented the rules, in the end he gets an award for "original thinking". Spock believes only through his own sacrifice can he deal with "no wins". See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobayashi_Maru#James_T._Kirk.27s_test

[JorgeStolfi]

I would be very surprised if the court agrees to let some of the creditors negotiate the distribution of some of the assets.  The whole point of the bankruptcy process is to make sure that all creditors get their fair share of the spoils.  So all the depositors would have to be contacted and agree on the settlement plan.

It is starting to look like no class of creditor, whether depositor or otherwise, will benefit very much should this liquidation continue. However, you are quite correct that communication between the various groups will be a real challenge. However, an effective out-of-court settlement of the bankruptcy could be a win-win solution for everyone concerned.

If we use the Kobayashi Maru test as an analogy, wherein Star Fleet cadets are tested on how they handle a no win situation, perhaps depositors would be wise to emulate the example of James T. Kirk instead of that of Mr. Spock. As you may recall, Kirk quietly reprograms the test simulator and comments that he doesn't believe in "no win" situations.  Even though he circumvented the rules, in the end he gets an award for "original thinking". Spock believes only through his own sacrifice can he deal with "no wins". See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobayashi_Maru#James_T._Kirk.27s_test

Japanese law gives priority to certain classes of creditors (IIRC, employee salaries first, then secured creditors, then unsecured creditors, then investors, and management for last).

In this case the bulk of creditors are the former clients, which are all in the same bag.  On the average, they will get no more than 1/5 of their account balances, courts or no courts.  Thee is no "win" possible for them.

One big difference between bankruptcy and the Sunlot proposal is that the latter would NOT exclude management from the division; and in fact has "absolved" McCaleb and Gay-Bouchery from any wrongdoing even before any investigation, and would not say what they will do about Mark.

I don't think that the Japanese courts will take Star Trek jurisprudence into account.  Ultraman's , perhaps.