MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]

[donk4u]

gox has single handedley  brought bitcoin down from 850  jan 27 to todays 557 and bitcoin will continue to plunge  because of these pirates.

[FrictionlessCoin]

It is probably illegal to pay out to one party to the detriment of others if you are technically bankrupt, i.e. if you have less value on hand than you owe.

Wrong.  There is always some seniority ranking on who gets paid and who does not is the case of Bankruptcy.

But the law certainly does not prescribe first-come-first-served.

Hell yes,  that's what seniority is all about!

[Newar]

With all the experts in Japanese law, this will be a piece of cake!

[T.Stuart]

Karpeles resigning and the reset Twitter accounts is because Karpeles will announce this week that he will no longer be the CEO of MtGox. There will be a professional CEO at the head of Gox who will (try to) make MtGox again a succesfull exchange.

I have no insider info, just my guess.

Wishful thinking. I don't know what will happen but this appears unlikely to me. I can see three scenarios:

• Hard bankruptcy, remaining fiat and bitcoins are shared out in proportion after losses are deducted
• Takeover by another company with deep coffers (not too likely, in my view, because Mt. Gox does not look very attractive)
• Mt. Gox wriggles through and comes out solvent, perhaps barely solvent, and continues to pay out slowly (also wishful thinking, but not entirely impossible).

The loss of reputation would be difficult to reverse, so I find it hard to see any rosy future for Mt. Gox.

Agree with your points although I don't think Gox would be that unattractive. An outside investor would see a huge client base and an opportunity to turn things around.

[bitcoinvest]

Karpeles resigning and the reset Twitter accounts is because Karpeles will announce this week that he will no longer be the CEO of MtGox. There will be a professional CEO at the head of Gox who will (try to) make MtGox again a succesfull exchange.

I have no insider info, just my guess.

Wishful thinking. I don't know what will happen but this appears unlikely to me. I can see three scenarios:

• Hard bankruptcy, remaining fiat and bitcoins are shared out in proportion after losses are deducted
• Takeover by another company with deep coffers (not too likely, in my view, because Mt. Gox does not look very attractive)
• Mt. Gox wriggles through and comes out solvent, perhaps barely solvent, and continues to pay out slowly (also wishful thinking, but not entirely impossible).

The loss of reputation would be difficult to reverse, so I find it hard to see any rosy future for Mt. Gox.

Agree with your points although I don't think Gox would be that unattractive. An outside investor would see a huge client base and an opportunity to turn things around.

+1

[LukeCoin]

It is probably illegal to pay out to one party to the detriment of others if you are technically bankrupt, i.e. if you have less value on hand than you owe.

Wrong.  There is always some seniority ranking on who gets paid and who does not is the case of Bankruptcy.

But the law certainly does not prescribe first-come-first-served.

Hell yes,  that's what seniority is all about!

If true, this is something very specific to Japanese law. All over Europe there's no first come first serve - in contrary, the liquidator is allowed to reverse transactions took place even several month before filling for insolvency if a creditor has been preferred.

[FrictionlessCoin]

Karpeles resigning and the reset Twitter accounts is because Karpeles will announce this week that he will no longer be the CEO of MtGox. There will be a professional CEO at the head of Gox who will (try to) make MtGox again a succesfull exchange.

I have no insider info, just my guess.

Wishful thinking. I don't know what will happen but this appears unlikely to me. I can see three scenarios:

• Hard bankruptcy, remaining fiat and bitcoins are shared out in proportion after losses are deducted
• Takeover by another company with deep coffers (not too likely, in my view, because Mt. Gox does not look very attractive)
• Mt. Gox wriggles through and comes out solvent, perhaps barely solvent, and continues to pay out slowly (also wishful thinking, but not entirely impossible).

The loss of reputation would be difficult to reverse, so I find it hard to see any rosy future for Mt. Gox.

Agree with your points although I don't think Gox would be that unattractive. An outside investor would see a huge client base and an opportunity to turn things around.

+1

Mt.Gox play right now is to purposely destroy its own reputation so that it can acquire back BTC.   This make allow them to claim that they never lost customers money.  Doing otherwise will lead to criminal charges and prison time. 

So that will happen,  every time mtgox BTC rises, they will do what they can to squash the rumors that they are going to make it.  That is what they did on purpose,  resign for bitcoin fondation and delete twitter messages.  That is after a short squeeze occured on Saturday.

[donk4u]

Mt GOx play is to drop bitcoin to unprecedented lows from 850 to ? so it can buy back and chirp how peoples coins were safe all along  causing shills like strudle to rejoice and shout" I told you so from the rooftops". Where is that shill strudle anyway gone underground I see.

[fonzie]

 

[Rampion]

Good news everyone!

16:44 <@ne0futur> until unverified accounts used the malleability backdoor to get double paid

Nice. So MtGox remote support person William Waisse ("ne0futur) just admitted on the official #mtgox IRC channel that unverified accounts were used to steal unknown amounts of BTC.

[donk4u]

So i guess next step is going to be to get everyone verified so they can deny verifcations for  months at a time like they did with mine? I guess double paying people was done  due to to non verification and incompetence had nothing to do with it.

[FrictionlessCoin]

More good news, JPY withdraws from MtGox are now INSTANT (actually true, not kidding here). Yep, if you want to take JPY out of MtGox now then you get it immediately.

- MtGox price premium was +25% above other exchanges.
- JPY was the only method to get fiat out which was relatively fast.
- JPY withdraws got more and more delayed as more and more requested to get JPY out.
- JPY withdraw delays topped at around 30 days as documented in the thread about JPY withdraws.
- MtGox price crashes and goes to $100 (below for a short period)
- People start sending JPY into MtGox to buy "cheap" goxcoins
- JPY withdraws are now INSTANT.

Could it be more obvious that MtGox is using new deposits to pay out withdraws?

Well, the want to keep the price of BTC low so that Mt.Gox can buy it themselves.

For Mt.Gox to avoid jail time,  they have to show that there books are all squared.  So anybody with fiat gets to withdraw.  Anyone with BTC can withdraw, but they have to sell it to fiat at 1/4th of its value.

[oriolpont]

More good news, JPY withdraws from MtGox are now INSTANT (actually true, not kidding here). Yep, if you want to take JPY out of MtGox now then you get it immediately.

- MtGox price premium was +25% above other exchanges.
- JPY was the only method to get fiat out which was relatively fast.
- JPY withdraws got more and more delayed as more and more requested to get JPY out.
- JPY withdraw delays topped at around 30 days as documented in the thread about JPY withdraws.
- MtGox price crashes and goes to $100 (below for a short period)
- People start sending JPY into MtGox to buy "cheap" goxcoins
- JPY withdraws are now INSTANT.

Could it be more obvious that MtGox is using new deposits to pay out withdraws?

Sorry, but I see as a much likelier explanation that people who was at the withdrawal queue canceled their withdrawals to buy cheap BTC.gox, hence clearing the queue. I did exactly this, and some people reported doing it too in this thread a few posts ago.
People are likely sending fiat to Mtgox also, but not necessarily to cover withdrawals (since we cannot know, it makes little sense to speculate).

[DjangoSi]

More good news, JPY withdraws from MtGox are now INSTANT (actually true, not kidding here). Yep, if you want to take JPY out of MtGox now then you get it immediately.

- MtGox price premium was +25% above other exchanges.
- JPY was the only method to get fiat out which was relatively fast.
- JPY withdraws got more and more delayed as more and more requested to get JPY out.
- JPY withdraw delays topped at around 30 days as documented in the thread about JPY withdraws.
- MtGox price crashes and goes to $100 (below for a short period)
- People start sending JPY into MtGox to buy "cheap" goxcoins
- JPY withdraws are now INSTANT.

Could it be more obvious that MtGox is using new deposits to pay out withdraws?

Well, the want to keep the price of BTC low so that Mt.Gox can buy it themselves.

Who will buy bitcoin if he can't withdraw them? Nobody

[itsunderstood]

Who will buy bitcoin if he can't withdraw them? Nobody

Some kind of angel with enough whatever to buy a whole MounTain.

A magic angel could save us from the stealing shitbags, but whom shall it be?

MAGICS AND MANNA FOREVER!

[Lohoris]

If you still have money there and you are not part of the lawsuit, it's bad for you. Because the ones filling the lawsuit will have priority to get their money back (if they win), and then there might be nothing left.  

It is probably illegal to pay out to one party to the detriment of others if you are technically bankrupt, i.e. if you have less value on hand than you owe. The normal procedure then is to declare bankruptcy. Then all remaining values are shared in proportion to the values owed.

These are both very strong assumptions.
Unless you are a lawyer knownedgable on local (i.e. japanese) law (hint: you are not), I declare them both UTTER BULLSHIT.
Laws are often much more complex and unpredictable than that.

[TheFootMan]

Where do you get this info from?   Withdrawals instant?  You experience this personally?

That childish mtgox support person said it and one other person confirmed it. This was on #mtgox. Could look in my log to see exactly who and get the quotes if you want.

Unverified MtGox accounts are not able to transfer Gox Bitcoins internally, or withdrawing externally. So if some hacker(s) used the malleability bug to increase the balance of unverified MtGox accounts, MtGox can simply rectify that by balancing their books, no?

[Lioerdi]

I must say that today I received a EUR 10,000 withdrawal that has been pending on MtGox from Jan 5 this year. Have some other withdrawals pending, but also reinvested some money in BTC at current low prices. I think bitcoin in the longer run will survive, so if Mt Gox also survives or is taken over by a competitor I might have decent gains on my last investments. If they don't suvive then I'm not convinced that I will recover a larger percentage of my cash than of my coins. If the coins then go back to the average value on the other exchanges, it might be better to be in coins. Or am I making a mistake in my reasoning?

[FrictionlessCoin]

I must say that today I received a EUR 10,000 withdrawal that has been pending on MtGox from Jan 5 this year. Have some other withdrawals pending, but also reinvested some money in BTC at current low prices. I think bitcoin in the longer run will survive, so if Mt Gox also survives or is taken over by a competitor I might have decent gains on my last investments. If they don't suvive then I'm not convinced that I will recover a larger percentage of my cash than of my coins. If the coins then go back to the average value on the other exchanges, it might be better to be in coins. Or am I making a mistake in my reasoning?

You reason is correct.  If MtGox under then you have claim to whatever percentage of coin or fiat they have left.  So you might as well own the currency that is currently at lower value.

If they survive, then BTC will go up 400% from its current value.

In short, in the set of probable scenarios, own BTC is the way to go. 

[hardpick]

I must say that today I received a EUR 10,000 withdrawal that has been pending on MtGox from Jan 5 this year. Have some other withdrawals pending, but also reinvested some money in BTC at current low prices. I think bitcoin in the longer run will survive, so if Mt Gox also survives or is taken over by a competitor I might have decent gains on my last investments. If they don't suvive then I'm not convinced that I will recover a larger percentage of my cash than of my coins. If the coins then go back to the average value on the other exchanges, it might be better to be in coins. Or am I making a mistake in my reasoning?

I think you have done the right thing.
I believe Bitcoin exchanges are un regulated– there is nothing stopping Mt gox buying bitcoins at about $170 – transfer bitcoins to bitstamp and sell for $570  and bring the money back into the mtgox . (Then repeat this process)
– Then reopen the exchange – when they have enough funds to pay every one