(Closed) Butter Bot!: Premier Bitstamp, and BTC-E EMA Trading Platform (Closed)

[vesperwillow]

I began trading crypto earlier this year and found it difficult to track the movements and trends (especially overnight), so I've downloaded the Butter Bot demo and am intrigued by the moving averages, tweaking settings, etc.

I'm currently running the 30 minute trade frequency setting, but I'm wondering what would happen if there is to be another crash in the BTC market similar to April (which I suspect is coming soon). I was sitting in front of my computer when it happened in April, and as I recall, the market went from 260 USD down to 50 USD or so in the matter of 15-30 minutes. If my trade frequency is set to 30 minutes, isn't it possible that the bot could entirely miss the start and finish of the crash and I'd end up selling at 50, if this were to happen again?

An ideal quality of a bot certainly is to remove the element of human emotions, as a poker might put it, "going on tilt" and making bad calls, but in the event of a crash such as the one described above, would it be best to take manual control, or should Butter Bot on a 30 minute trade setting be able to cover something like this? I'm not afraid to take control if I have to (and have the opportunity), but I'm just wondering if one could depend on a bot to ride through something like that?

Thanks in advance for any feedback, and I have been enjoying the trial so far  

Test your settings with the 15 and 5 minute trade frequencies to see how backtesting might go. I'd say look back in each time frame: 1 week, 1 month, 3 month, etc, all the way back to the crash. It may help.

Obviously if it folds within 10-15 minutes and you're on a 30 minute trade cycle, you'll miss the sell, but the bot will buy BTC at rock bottom pricing.

In all honesty a lot of situations can occur: Even if you have 15 minute trading, what happens if something occurs outside of that window?

Don't forget, there is the tick offset feature. This may help, as a lot of automated traders simply work at the top of the hour. You might want to do 30 minute trading with a 5 or 10 minute tick offset. Try playing with it in backtesting, just like above.

I predict we'll be at $300/btc soon, and bubble will pop at $400. But it will rise again I look forward to the next bubble pop. I will be on a buying frenzy.

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[PuertoLibre]

I began trading crypto earlier this year and found it difficult to track the movements and trends (especially overnight), so I've downloaded the Butter Bot demo and am intrigued by the moving averages, tweaking settings, etc.

I'm currently running the 30 minute trade frequency setting, but I'm wondering what would happen if there is to be another crash in the BTC market similar to April (which I suspect is coming soon). I was sitting in front of my computer when it happened in April, and as I recall, the market went from 260 USD down to 50 USD or so in the matter of 15-30 minutes. If my trade frequency is set to 30 minutes, isn't it possible that the bot could entirely miss the start and finish of the crash and I'd end up selling at 50, if this were to happen again?

YES.

An ideal quality of a bot certainly is to remove the element of human emotions, as a poker might put it, "going on tilt" and making bad calls, but in the event of a crash such as the one described above, would it be best to take manual control, or should Butter Bot on a 30 minute trade setting be able to cover something like this? I'm not afraid to take control if I have to (and have the opportunity), but I'm just wondering if one could depend on a bot to ride through something like that?

Thanks in advance for any feedback, and I have been enjoying the trial so far  

I asked this question earlier and the only feature that should (in theory) protect you is the TSL.

Though as pablo mentioned earlier in this thread it would first sell as it detects the crash and then turn the bot off. So I am not sure if TSL is useful.

Would it do it (sell) after the next update period of 30 minutes? It would seem it would. (Pablo can clarify)

Someone posted a formula that addressed the [potential] issue a few pages ago. But Pablo asked them if they were a mathematician and the discussion did not seem to evolve from there. [unfortunately]

=======[Discount Code for Butter (10% off)]=========

https://butter-bot.com/?r=f5a17f5b

Use my referal code cause' im sooo cute!  



You'll get an extra month free, it's all on me!

[San1ty]

I began trading crypto earlier this year and found it difficult to track the movements and trends (especially overnight), so I've downloaded the Butter Bot demo and am intrigued by the moving averages, tweaking settings, etc.

I'm currently running the 30 minute trade frequency setting, but I'm wondering what would happen if there is to be another crash in the BTC market similar to April (which I suspect is coming soon). I was sitting in front of my computer when it happened in April, and as I recall, the market went from 260 USD down to 50 USD or so in the matter of 15-30 minutes. If my trade frequency is set to 30 minutes, isn't it possible that the bot could entirely miss the start and finish of the crash and I'd end up selling at 50, if this were to happen again?

YES.

Imho this is a weakness in the bot. Every selfrespecting bot should have a stop-loss percentage set based on the high it achieved while being bought. The bot should pull the latest ticker information every minute in between it's regular intervals to act upon the stop-loss.

[fible1]

When the client is running locally you seem to be contacting your own server a lot (over SSL).
I think people have a right to know what exactly you are sending back to your own server.

Care to explain? Even when saving API keys, butter-bot.com is contacted...

Hi ,
  Sure, happy to explain:

Your client just talks to the server to get the current data points, API keys
are not transmitted to our server.

That might change in the future, when we release hosting or remote
controls, but it will be optional and explicitly stated.

Please keep in mind that even if we had bad faith there is very little we could do as your keys should only have "Get Info" and "Trade" permissions.

Please let me know if you need anything at all .

Pablo.

[NginUS]

Pablo,

I'm currently using the recommended default settings you posted that we should use for BTC-e. Those settings didn't include any mention of a sensible TSL value to protect us from a flash crash. What would be a sensible setting there to protect against a crash like in April, or would one not cause losses anyway?

Of course, I don't want to lose a bunch of money if we have a crash, & would prefer to be protected.

[fible1]

I began trading crypto earlier this year and found it difficult to track the movements and trends (especially overnight), so I've downloaded the Butter Bot demo and am intrigued by the moving averages, tweaking settings, etc.

I'm currently running the 30 minute trade frequency setting, but I'm wondering what would happen if there is to be another crash in the BTC market similar to April (which I suspect is coming soon). I was sitting in front of my computer when it happened in April, and as I recall, the market went from 260 USD down to 50 USD or so in the matter of 15-30 minutes. If my trade frequency is set to 30 minutes, isn't it possible that the bot could entirely miss the start and finish of the crash and I'd end up selling at 50, if this were to happen again?

YES.

Imho this is a weakness in the bot. Every selfrespecting bot should have a stop-loss percentage set based on the high it achieved while being bought. The bot should pull the latest ticker information every minute in between it's regular intervals to act upon the stop-loss.

Hi Saan1ty ,
   Interesting question. The bots Trailing Stop Loss (TSL) feature, does exactly that, it takes the highest value since you turned on the bot and sells all your BTC for fiat if price falls by the percentage specified.

I say this every couple of pages:  It is an easy feature to understand in principle, but it is very hard to use in combination with EMA and can result in losses if improperly set. The argument on this can go either way, if it were me, I would have my bot on a 30 or 15 minute interval and not use TSL; I would just rely on the bot to act correctly.

Now a lot can go wrong in a flash crash/rocket recuperation, there is no magic setting that will protect you against all cases. A shorter time frame will make the bot more reactive, but it could follow false signals and incur some losses. In the end, you can't look at this in single trades, even if we are discussing large market movements, you have to look at it in aggregate over time or you are really just looking at noise.

Please let me know if you need anything at all .

Pablo.

[fible1]

Pablo,

I'm currently using the recommended default settings you posted that we should use for BTC-e. Those settings didn't include any mention of a sensible TSL value to protect us from a flash crash. What would be a sensible setting there to protect against a crash like in April, or would one not cause losses anyway?

Of course, I don't want to lose a bunch of money if we have a crash, & would prefer to be protected.

Hi NginUS,
    There is no suggested TSL setting because TSL has to be closely watched because if it is not it can cause serious losses. We largely discourage its use, it was a feature included because a small group of expert traders wanted to test some strategy, that's it.

If you do use it, I would suggest a very high number, but keep in mind that when TSL is triggered it shuts off the bot so you could miss a flash rally. I would personally just trust EMA to protect me.

I hope that helps, please let me know if you need anything at all :=).

Pablo.

[NginUS]

Ok, I just saw your last post saying how smaller intervals help, so I feel better since I use a 30 minute window.

Thanks!

[San1ty]

I began trading crypto earlier this year and found it difficult to track the movements and trends (especially overnight), so I've downloaded the Butter Bot demo and am intrigued by the moving averages, tweaking settings, etc.

I'm currently running the 30 minute trade frequency setting, but I'm wondering what would happen if there is to be another crash in the BTC market similar to April (which I suspect is coming soon). I was sitting in front of my computer when it happened in April, and as I recall, the market went from 260 USD down to 50 USD or so in the matter of 15-30 minutes. If my trade frequency is set to 30 minutes, isn't it possible that the bot could entirely miss the start and finish of the crash and I'd end up selling at 50, if this were to happen again?

YES.

Imho this is a weakness in the bot. Every selfrespecting bot should have a stop-loss percentage set based on the high it achieved while being bought. The bot should pull the latest ticker information every minute in between it's regular intervals to act upon the stop-loss.

Hi Saan1ty ,
   Interesting question. The bots Trailing Stop Loss (TSL) feature, does exactly that, it takes the highest value since you turned on the bot and sells all your BTC for fiat if price falls by the percentage specified.

I say this every couple of pages:  It is an easy feature to understand in principle, but it is very hard to use in combination with EMA and can result in losses if improperly set. The argument on this can go either way, if it were me, I would have my bot on a 30 or 15 minute interval and not use TSL; I would just rely on the bot to act correctly.

Now a lot can go wrong in a flash crash/rocket recuperation, there is no magic setting that will protect you against all cases. A shorter time frame will make the bot more reactive, but it could follow false signals and incur some losses. In the end, you can't look at this in single trades, even if we are discussing large market movements, you have to look at it in aggregate over time or you are really just looking at noise.

Please let me know if you need anything at all .

Pablo.

Hi thanks for the reply! It's close but it's not exactly what I mean:

The system you currently have can abruptly stop trading when there is no reason to.

I suggest a trailing stop loss per trade:

I buy 10 BTC at 200, and have a stop loss set at 10 %:
the market climbs to 250 and then drops to 225 (a drop of 250 = 10% of the high) therefor the bot executes a sell order.
After this trade the stop loss should be reset untill you buy the next time based on the indicator.

Also I notice you have to set the trading fee manually (this should be an api call to the exchange every X minutes to check what the trading fee is).
Bitstamp has a trading fee based on your volume.

[PuertoLibre]

Ok, I just saw your last post saying how smaller intervals help, so I feel better since I use a 30 minute window.

Thanks!

After running lots of back test I found that your update interval should change depending on how volatile the market conditions are.

The less volatile they are, the longer the period should be.
The more volatile they are, the shorter the period should be.

Mismatch and you'll lose money on more frequent trading due to "noise" as pablo put it.

If you want some reverse EMA settings try:
Short/Long EMA
21/19
or
17/15

=======[Discount Code for Butter (10% off)]=========

https://butter-bot.com/?r=f5a17f5b

Use my referal code cause' im sooo cute!  



You'll get an extra month free, it's all on me!

[fible1]

I began trading crypto earlier this year and found it difficult to track the movements and trends (especially overnight), so I've downloaded the Butter Bot demo and am intrigued by the moving averages, tweaking settings, etc.

I'm currently running the 30 minute trade frequency setting, but I'm wondering what would happen if there is to be another crash in the BTC market similar to April (which I suspect is coming soon). I was sitting in front of my computer when it happened in April, and as I recall, the market went from 260 USD down to 50 USD or so in the matter of 15-30 minutes. If my trade frequency is set to 30 minutes, isn't it possible that the bot could entirely miss the start and finish of the crash and I'd end up selling at 50, if this were to happen again?

YES.

Imho this is a weakness in the bot. Every selfrespecting bot should have a stop-loss percentage set based on the high it achieved while being bought. The bot should pull the latest ticker information every minute in between it's regular intervals to act upon the stop-loss.

Hi Saan1ty ,
   Interesting question. The bots Trailing Stop Loss (TSL) feature, does exactly that, it takes the highest value since you turned on the bot and sells all your BTC for fiat if price falls by the percentage specified.

I say this every couple of pages:  It is an easy feature to understand in principle, but it is very hard to use in combination with EMA and can result in losses if improperly set. The argument on this can go either way, if it were me, I would have my bot on a 30 or 15 minute interval and not use TSL; I would just rely on the bot to act correctly.

Now a lot can go wrong in a flash crash/rocket recuperation, there is no magic setting that will protect you against all cases. A shorter time frame will make the bot more reactive, but it could follow false signals and incur some losses. In the end, you can't look at this in single trades, even if we are discussing large market movements, you have to look at it in aggregate over time or you are really just looking at noise.

Please let me know if you need anything at all .

Pablo.

Hi thanks for the reply! It's close but it's not exactly what I mean:

The system you currently have can abruptly stop trading when there is no reason to.

I suggest a trailing stop loss per trade:

I buy 10 BTC at 200, and have a stop loss set at 10 %:
the market climbs to 250 and then drops to 225 (a drop of 250 = 10% of the high) therefor the bot executes a sell order.
After this trade the stop loss should be reset untill you buy the next time based on the indicator.

Also I notice you have to set the trading fee manually (this should be an api call to the exchange every X minutes to check what the trading fee is).
Bitstamp has a trading fee based on your volume.

Hey ,
  I think I see what you mean, a sort of "step" stop loss. I will tell you up front that I am not the trading consultant so I can not judge how effective this would be, but I will bring it up with the appropriate people, strikes me as a sane suggestion .

Pablo.

[San1ty]

I began trading crypto earlier this year and found it difficult to track the movements and trends (especially overnight), so I've downloaded the Butter Bot demo and am intrigued by the moving averages, tweaking settings, etc.

I'm currently running the 30 minute trade frequency setting, but I'm wondering what would happen if there is to be another crash in the BTC market similar to April (which I suspect is coming soon). I was sitting in front of my computer when it happened in April, and as I recall, the market went from 260 USD down to 50 USD or so in the matter of 15-30 minutes. If my trade frequency is set to 30 minutes, isn't it possible that the bot could entirely miss the start and finish of the crash and I'd end up selling at 50, if this were to happen again?

YES.

Imho this is a weakness in the bot. Every selfrespecting bot should have a stop-loss percentage set based on the high it achieved while being bought. The bot should pull the latest ticker information every minute in between it's regular intervals to act upon the stop-loss.

Hi Saan1ty ,
   Interesting question. The bots Trailing Stop Loss (TSL) feature, does exactly that, it takes the highest value since you turned on the bot and sells all your BTC for fiat if price falls by the percentage specified.

I say this every couple of pages:  It is an easy feature to understand in principle, but it is very hard to use in combination with EMA and can result in losses if improperly set. The argument on this can go either way, if it were me, I would have my bot on a 30 or 15 minute interval and not use TSL; I would just rely on the bot to act correctly.

Now a lot can go wrong in a flash crash/rocket recuperation, there is no magic setting that will protect you against all cases. A shorter time frame will make the bot more reactive, but it could follow false signals and incur some losses. In the end, you can't look at this in single trades, even if we are discussing large market movements, you have to look at it in aggregate over time or you are really just looking at noise.

Please let me know if you need anything at all .

Pablo.

Hi thanks for the reply! It's close but it's not exactly what I mean:

The system you currently have can abruptly stop trading when there is no reason to.

I suggest a trailing stop loss per trade:

I buy 10 BTC at 200, and have a stop loss set at 10 %:
the market climbs to 250 and then drops to 225 (a drop of 250 = 10% of the high) therefor the bot executes a sell order.
After this trade the stop loss should be reset untill you buy the next time based on the indicator.

Also I notice you have to set the trading fee manually (this should be an api call to the exchange every X minutes to check what the trading fee is).
Bitstamp has a trading fee based on your volume.

Hey ,
  I think I see what you mean, a sort of "step" stop loss. I will tell you up front that I am not the trading consultant so I can not judge how effective this would be, but I will bring it up with the appropriate people, strikes me as a sane suggestion .

Pablo.

What I basically mean is a trailing stop loss that resets per trade :-). But your current implementation has it's merits too: post crash it might be wise to temporarily stop the bot and start it again manually if the market has calmed down a bit.

Maybe have both as an option with a clear explanation with what the difference is.

Also: EMA Crossovers are basically a pretty weak trading system. If you like MA's a lot you should consider switching to MACD as it is superior.

Hope you don't take my feedback too harsh, I'm just trying to help you make a better bot .

[KamiN]

Hi,

Got another question - what happens during a strong rise or drop, one that would trigger a buy/sell, but when it tries to do so, the API towards Bitstamp is being slow/unresponsive. It gives the notification that it will automatically recover - but will it keep trying and trying straight away, or will it just wait and try again at the next "Trade frequency"-point?

Thanks!

[fible1]

Hi,

Got another question - what happens during a strong rise or drop, one that would trigger a buy/sell, but when it tries to do so, the API towards Bitstamp is being slow/unresponsive. It gives the notification that it will automatically recover - but will it keep trying and trying straight away, or will it just wait and try again at the next "Trade frequency"-point?

Thanks!

Hi Kami ,
  It will hit the API periodically until it can execute the trade.

I hope that answers your question, please let me know if you need anything at all .

Pablo.

[KamiN]

Hi,

Got another question - what happens during a strong rise or drop, one that would trigger a buy/sell, but when it tries to do so, the API towards Bitstamp is being slow/unresponsive. It gives the notification that it will automatically recover - but will it keep trying and trying straight away, or will it just wait and try again at the next "Trade frequency"-point?

Thanks!

Hi Kami ,
  It will hit the API periodically until it can execute the trade.

I hope that answers your question, please let me know if you need anything at all .

Pablo.

Yes it does, that's great. Thanks

[MicroFi]

Can't you try to integrate a stop-loss mechanism like this:
The bot actively compares the current market price against the market price of x minutes ago.
If there's a negative difference of x percent > automatically sell!

That way we'd at least be somewhat protected against a possible flash crash.

[fible1]

Can't you try to integrate a stop-loss mechanism like this:
The bot actively compares the current market price against the market price of x minutes ago.
If there's a negative difference of x percent > automatically sell!

That way we'd at least be somewhat protected against a possible flash crash.

Hey Guys ,
  Ok, so we understand that you guys want us to develop the Stop Loss mechanism. Given the discussion over the past few days, this has gained priority for us (we are, after all, guided by the community on what we develop), we are having some internal discussions on this right now; we will see if we can come up with a solution that works with EMA and I will post on this when we have something to report .

Please keep the suggestions coming .

Pablo.

[San1ty]

Can't you try to integrate a stop-loss mechanism like this:
The bot actively compares the current market price against the market price of x minutes ago.
If there's a negative difference of x percent > automatically sell!

That way we'd at least be somewhat protected against a possible flash crash.

Hey Guys ,
  Ok, so we understand that you guys want us to develop the Stop Loss mechanism. Given the discussion over the past few days, this has gained priority for us (we are, after all, guided by the community on what we develop), we are having some internal discussions on this right now; we will see if we can come up with a solution that works with EMA and I will post on this when we have something to report .

Please keep the suggestions coming .

Pablo.

Hi,

You might have missed some of my comments :

- EMA Crossovers are basically a pretty weak trading system. If you like MA's a lot you should consider switching to MACD as it is superior. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MACD)
- I notice you have to set the trading fee manually (this should be an api call to the exchange every X minutes to check what the trading fee is). Bitstamp has a trading fee based on your volume.

Great work on the bot and great communication with your community by the way!

[papaminer]

Please keep the suggestions coming Smiley.

Pablo.

HFT would also be nice...

atleast have the bot trade 5-10 times a day...

[NginUS]

Please keep the suggestions coming Smiley.

Pablo.

HFT would also be nice...

atleast have the bot trade 5-10 times a day...

I read way earlier in this thread, say around page 15 or so (give or take 10 pages), that you can configure the bot to do HFT just by adjusting its settings, but it's not recommended because it's simply not that profitable.

I'm looking forward to seeing what we get when the devs release the version that gives us new strategies to choose from in addition to EMA. If these new strategies might prove to be more profitable than EMA it would be quite exciting, otherwise if EMA remains the profit leader, I don't quite care what they are, as I'll stick with the profitability winner.

Aside from that- I do like to see that developing the new variant of stop loss is becoming a priority as of late, because safety is an important concern. I don't like to be vulnerable to a condition where a flash crash could cause destruction since I tend to like to 'set it & forget it' with the bot, and protection against these scenarios is always a good thing.

In addition to seeing this feature developed I'd like to reiterate that a profit/loss tracking feature is something I personally would very much like to see time spent on developing for us.