(Closed) Butter Bot!: Premier Bitstamp, and BTC-E EMA Trading Platform (Closed)

[fible1]

With all the talk about trial software.....

Pablo should probably turn the trial software into a simulation.

Unlimited time, but your account won't actually trade in real life. As long as you keep it open it will trade imaginary numbers but nothing actually goes out to the exchange API's. Just simple math.

If a person tried the simulation then after some unknown period of time, they would be able to fine tune the settings and see the ongoing results of their changes. If it convinces them, they buy the software license, if not, no harm no foul.

Pablo should also implement profiles (I believe it's on the board already) so that users can openly exchange settings either out in the open or between each other. Giving newbies to the ButterBot simulator(formerly trial software) some "settings" which they can see results within a reasonable period of time.

It will also help everyone figure out what kinds of changes makes sense and why it works better than another setting.

==============================

One "problem" with the backtesting feature is that it doesn't really give you a clue as to why one setting works spectacularly while other settings work downright terrible.

People turn to BitCoinWisdom because it gives them a visual representation of the last 900 update cycles. It lets people do the tweaking and only in one dimension.

It would be nice if there was eventually a fully supported website by the butter bot team that shows users (interactively) what different settings do when they are changed. Letting the casual simulator or licensed user of Butter bot focus in on what could be improved on.

Allowing you to:
Change the tick settings with vertical highlights,
Change EMA's all four EMA pairs with highlights that spots where crossovers occured in the past based on your chosen settings,
Change the EMA's pairs and see how many spikes and drops were taken advantage of in a given period of time.
Change the periods of update to see what is more advantageous.


In other words interactive, visual and dynamic so people can figure out what the numbers actually mean and what changes with each setting.

===========================

Pablo's team should also (geeze one too many ideas) focus in on a little addon to find the heart beats of the market. Both the large ones and the smaller ones.

Not incredibly, if you look over the graphs (RTBTC/BitCoinWisdom etc) you can find the timing of various bots that do large trades at pretty precise intervals. Allowing you to time your own buys and sells (or butter bot) with that in mind.

I can always count on PuertoLibre for the good ideas ,

Turning the demo into a simulation only software after the trial expires is an interesting idea, there is the issue of server load as a lot of people actually demo the software every week and an open ended simulation may put added stress on the network; this is something I will definitely bring up with the dev team.

The second idea is actually pretty great, about 20% of my weekly email load refers to what EMA settings mean and what effect changes have on them. This is something I would personally like to se developed and I think it will be very useful to everyone if they could understand the meaning of each setting and how this affect Butter dynamically. This is something I think we can look at as soon as we push out some of the major upcoming features (like LTC). Like I said, I love this idea .

As to the third idea: We will be reworking the trading engine to work with added indicators so this may have a similar effect, I will look into this in more depth.

Thank you for the suggestions, be sure to keep them coming .

Pablo.

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[MaxBTC1]

Firstly, I love this and think its great.

However...

I backtested the recommended settings for BTC-e for 1 week....all fine.  Tidy little profit.

I then fucked around with the settings for next half an hour to an hour, and upon returning to the original settings the backtest results were different.

Why is this?  My numbers are exactly the same.

[OleOle]

Firstly, I love this and think its great.

However...

I backtested the recommended settings for BTC-e for 1 week....all fine.  Tidy little profit.

I then fucked around with the settings for next half an hour to an hour, and upon returning to the original settings the backtest results were different.

Why is this?  My numbers are exactly the same.

Well, I'm not exactly sure, but I'd speculate that the thing that creates the difference is the price of BTC/USD as the live price is always fluctuating, so may have changed in that 30-60 mins that you were tweaking the settings. If say the price was $830 and when you first backtested, it's probably not going to be the exact same price when you backtested it slightly later, it might be $825 or $840 or whatever and I'd suspect that this difference would be responsible for the difference in the backtesting results.

Just a thought.

[PuertoLibre]

What are the recommended settings?

(I forgot what it was)

[telemaco]

Firstly, I love this and think its great.

However...

I backtested the recommended settings for BTC-e for 1 week....all fine.  Tidy little profit.

I then fucked around with the settings for next half an hour to an hour, and upon returning to the original settings the backtest results were different.

Why is this?  My numbers are exactly the same.

Well, I'm not exactly sure, but I'd speculate that the thing that creates the difference is the price of BTC/USD as the live price is always fluctuating, so may have changed in that 30-60 mins that you were tweaking the settings. If say the price was $830 and when you first backtested, it's probably not going to be the exact same price when you backtested it slightly later, it might be $825 or $840 or whatever and I'd suspect that this difference would be responsible for the difference in the backtesting results.

Just a thought.

I think that is quite confusing.
If i am backtesting at 9:30 and it gives a X gain result, and then i backtest again at 9:31 i get another one.

I think the backtest should always be based on the 0:00 + the time period (hourly/2h/6h/etc) + the tick offset
not on timenow() + the time period (hourly/2h/6h/etc) + the tick offset



Let's imagine i try to create a comparative table of backtests to choose the best one i prefer

If I am backtesting on Hourly with 0 tick offset, i think is confusing to consider that the backtest is the timenow() + 0 offset because the timenow() is changing all the time so i cannot rely on the data of my own table after 5 minutes have passed.

I think it could be more clear always basing the backtests on the 0:00 hours (like 1:00, 2:00, 3:00, etc for hourly) and i you want to have your trades to execute at 0:45 you can configure the offset to +45 minutes. Like that you will be able to create a comparative table and get some conclusion.

Does it make any sense?

Cheers,

[MaxBTC1]

Firstly, I love this and think its great.

However...

I backtested the recommended settings for BTC-e for 1 week....all fine.  Tidy little profit.

I then fucked around with the settings for next half an hour to an hour, and upon returning to the original settings the backtest results were different.

Why is this?  My numbers are exactly the same.

Well, I'm not exactly sure, but I'd speculate that the thing that creates the difference is the price of BTC/USD as the live price is always fluctuating, so may have changed in that 30-60 mins that you were tweaking the settings. If say the price was $830 and when you first backtested, it's probably not going to be the exact same price when you backtested it slightly later, it might be $825 or $840 or whatever and I'd suspect that this difference would be responsible for the difference in the backtesting results.

Just a thought.

I think that is quite confusing.
If i am backtesting at 9:30 and it gives a X gain result, and then i backtest again at 9:31 i get another one.

I think the backtest should always be based on the 0:00 + the time period (hourly/2h/6h/etc) + the tick offset
not on timenow() + the time period (hourly/2h/6h/etc) + the tick offset



Let's imagine i try to create a comparative table of backtests to choose the best one i prefer

If I am backtesting on Hourly with 0 tick offset, i think is confusing to consider that the backtest is the timenow() + 0 offset because the timenow() is changing all the time so i cannot rely on the data of my own table after 5 minutes have passed.

I think it could be more clear always basing the backtests on the 0:00 hours (like 1:00, 2:00, 3:00, etc for hourly) and i you want to have your trades to execute at 0:45 you can configure the offset to +45 minutes. Like that you will be able to create a comparative table and get some conclusion.

Does it make any sense?

Cheers,

Thanks guys, that clears it up.

[smashpt]

Sup guys, I'm a newbie here. Could anyone please tell me some config's for BTC-E (EMA) at the moment?

[blackhathasher]

Sup guys, I'm a newbie here. Could anyone please tell me some config's for BTC-E (EMA) at the moment?

Try Short: 20 Long: 42
Freq: 30 Min
Buy 1: -50
Sell 1: -50
Buy 2: 0.10
Sell 2: 0.15

And go from there...

[blackhathasher]

Hey Pablo...

Any idea on when we will see custom date ranges for the backtest engine?

Cryptotrader now wants to charge $8/mo for backtesting capabilities ONLY...

As much as I love butter-bot the backtesting is worthless without custom date ranges.

[xzempt]

does this only work with bitcoins>?   how about litecoins?>  ppc?

[NginUS]

does this only work with bitcoins>?   how about litecoins?>  ppc?

Not yet, but it's a planned feature in the works for a future release.

[NginUS]

Hey Pablo,

How's hosting coming along?

-NginUS

[Hanslo]

Sup guys, I'm a newbie here. Could anyone please tell me some config's for BTC-E (EMA) at the moment?

Try Short: 20 Long: 42
Freq: 30 Min
Buy 1: -50
Sell 1: -50
Buy 2: 0.10
Sell 2: 0.15

And go from there...

What about MtGox?

I have Short: 10 Long 21
Freq: 2 hour
Buy 1: 0
Sell 1: 0
Buy 2: 0.25
Sell 2: 0.25

4 weeks with no profit, only loss

[smashpt]

Sup guys, I'm a newbie here. Could anyone please tell me some config's for BTC-E (EMA) at the moment?

Try Short: 20 Long: 42
Freq: 30 Min
Buy 1: -50
Sell 1: -50
Buy 2: 0.10
Sell 2: 0.15

And go from there...

Buy 1: -50
Sell 1: -50

It's -0.5 or -50?

[tolega]

Sup guys, I'm a newbie here. Could anyone please tell me some config's for BTC-E (EMA) at the moment?

Try Short: 20 Long: 42
Freq: 30 Min
Buy 1: -50
Sell 1: -50
Buy 2: 0.10
Sell 2: 0.15

And go from there...

What about MtGox?

I have Short: 10 Long 21
Freq: 2 hour
Buy 1: 0
Sell 1: 0
Buy 2: 0.25
Sell 2: 0.25

4 weeks with no profit, only loss

10/21 has been a losing one for ages, too many people use it.
I have noticed pros have created a bot with some algorithm that makes bots using EMA lines to continuously lose small amount of money most of the time. Look at the charts, do back engine check from the last 3 months. Last time I checked max profit was around 5%. It would have been much more profitable simply holding, selling at ATH and buying again when lower. To say "do your back engine check for 1 year" is completely wrong as of course it will be profitable, 1 year ago BTC was a few dollars. You would have multiplied your money by thousands of percentage points if you had simply bought and held the btcs.


My bot has been off since December.

[smashpt]

My bot bought BTC at the price of 843$, and the price aight now is around 824$... I will need a couple of days/week's so the bot could start tradding (depending of the btc price) right?

[OleOle]

My bot bought BTC at the price of 843$, and the price aight now is around 824$... I will need a couple of days/week's so the bot could start tradding (depending of the btc price) right?

If your bot bought at $843 and the price is now $824, the reason that it hasn't sold your BTC back into USD is that it hasn't yet identified the market in a defined downward trend. If the bot perceives a downward trend becoming established, it will sell your BTC back into USD with the view to buy back USD when an upward trend establishes itself later.

If you haven't already, it really is worth reading this whole thread, yes it's a helluva lot of pages, but it will be very worthwhile so that you can fully grasp the methodology of the bot, how it reacts in different situations and, perhaps, times that you should turn the bot off if the market is 'choppy' - that is trading flat or sideways - it's called 'choppy' as it tends to chop traders up producing multiple losses, limited price swings and indeterminate trend.

It's probably worth keeping this thought to the forefront of your mind, especially when markets are skittish, sideways or irreverant:

"The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent."
 - John Maynard Keynes, British economist (1883 - 1946)

Good luck with it all.

[smashpt]

My bot bought BTC at the price of 843$, and the price aight now is around 824$... I will need a couple of days/week's so the bot could start tradding (depending of the btc price) right?

If your bot bought at $843 and the price is now $824, the reason that it hasn't sold your BTC back into USD is that it hasn't yet identified the market in a defined downward trend. If the bot perceives a downward trend becoming established, it will sell your BTC back into USD with the view to buy back USD when an upward trend establishes itself later.

If you haven't already, it really is worth reading this whole thread, yes it's a helluva lot of pages, but it will be very worthwhile so that you can fully grasp the methodology of the bot, how it reacts in different situations and, perhaps, times that you should turn the bot off if the market is 'choppy' - that is trading flat or sideways - it's called 'choppy' as it tends to chop traders up producing multiple losses, limited price swings and indeterminate trend.

It's probably worth keeping this thought to the forefront of your mind, especially when markets are skittish, sideways or irreverant:

"The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent."
 - John Maynard Keynes, British economist (1883 - 1946)

Good luck with it all.

Appreciated this great text. I'm not a 'pro' about market's/economy, i'm learning step-by-step... and I hope i will not make any sh*t with this

So, my bot could take some days till identify the market - All I need to do is keep it running and see how it goes?

[smashpt]

Ok so, after 24 hours my bot tradded:

EMA diff is at -0.276% (1 BTC = 827.615 USD) at btce.

A sell order was triggered!

Your friendly trading bot.



Is this a bad thing?

[OleOle]

Appreciated this great text. I'm not a 'pro' about market's/economy, i'm learning step-by-step... and I hope i will not make any sh*t with this

So, my bot could take some days till identify the market - All I need to do is keep it running and see how it goes?

No worries, happy to help

Well, the bot will be checking the live price and form a view based on what time frequency you have the bot set at. I've got the bot set at "2 hour" trade frequency, so it determines trend by examining prices every two hours. It's worth pointing out that Pablo (username: Fible1) has said previously that the bot is not ideally used as a high frequency trading bot (although I think there is some possibility of that feature being available in future updates) so you have to form a view on what you want the bot to do.

The bot comes with 'starter settings', that is, there's variables plugged in and if say, you have your time frequency set to "1 day" then he bot will only check prices once a day, so yes, it will be more clear what price trends may be forming over the previous days, for example day 1 price is $825, day 2 price is $800, day 3 price is $775, is a clear downward trend and no doubt the bot would sell once it determined the downward trend.

However if the bot time frequency is set to "1 hour", it will check the prices every hour, so if the bot sees a similar downward trend across three hours, say hour 1 $825, hour 2 $800, hour 3 $775, then it will operate in the same way as with the "1 day" settings in the paragraph above and trigger a sell, but the key point here is that with the shorter time frequencies, it could just have been market 'noise', or some people offloading a larger position or some other undetermined market factor that drove the price lower, so if you've got the bot checking every hour, it might be responding to intra-day market events, rather than identifying a proper trend. In our example, the "1 hour" bot might be selling at $775 only to find that the market rises an hour or two later and it will have to buy back your BTC and in the process incurring trading fees and mostly likely some small loss as the narrower time frequency bot settings make it over-sensitive to intra-day market fluctuations.

So there's a trade-off between how often you want the bot to keep tabs on the market, some people are happy checking the market once a day as they are trying to catch the larger trend up or down, some people look to identify shorter trends and have narrower time frequency settings. There's no 'right way', it depends on your own risk tolerance and your overall view of the market.

That's just the time frequency parameter of the bot, perhaps those people with more info to share can comment further on the threshold settings of the bot? I'm still yet to find settings that I'm entirely satisfied with and like many traders over the Christmas and New Year period, I had the bot turned off, then quickly turned it on when the BTC/USD price spiked to over $1000 before settling back down again to this rather frustrating $800-$900 price range.

It's probably worth mentioning that I trade the same settings on both MtGox and Bitstamp (I don't yet trade BTC-e, I have an account there, but I'm not fully verified or set up with that exchange) although I think that when I find settings that I actually like, I'll begin to tweak them individually for each exchange but being relatively new to the Butter Bot, I'm still trying to wrap my head around the subtleties of the settings and the vagueness/volatility of the price action on the market.

Ok so, after 24 hours my bot tradded:

EMA diff is at -0.276% (1 BTC = 827.615 USD) at btce.

A sell order was triggered!

Your friendly trading bot.


Is this a bad thing?

No, it's not a bad thing, you want your bot to sell from BTC into USD when the market drops. If the market dropped from around $800 to $100 you'd be fuming the bot didn't sell. What you want to happen now is that the market keeps dropping and that it might stabilise at say $700 and your bot buys back in, then the market begins to rise again. That's one of the ways it makes you money