Off-Topic

[Vigil]

To be honest, no one really "took the risk". We all purchased based on verbal contract that things would be delivered within a certain time-frame. If they weren't delivered, then contract was violated. It isn't up to any purchaser to own up to the late boards/chips, they have every right to pursue any legal course of action to remedy the situation. No purchaser is at fault.

TH isn't going to send everyone extra boards or gen 2 boards for free and it won't matter anyway, the window of opportunity is closed or almost closed. Difficulty will be at or above 75 M by the time anyone here gets thier boards and will within two weeks be up to 100M. You needed to be mining through the pre 50M and 50M diff to hit your ROI.

[1714626718]

1714626718

[bitcoin carpenter]

terrahash already said they would open up some more pre assembled boards, if they can get more chips.  


on a different note, I think the hash rate increase is gonna stabalize after we hit 150 mil difficulty.  Already you are seeing companies offering special deals because they cant sell anymore, and no one is gonna take a chance on a preorder after this.  so we are gonna see about 300-500 TH from gen 1 and 2 chips, then maybe another 5-6 hundred TH after that..... so with 150 GH you should still be seeing a return of .366 btc per day  at the end of this year or 10 a month.... maybe a 1:1 return in 9 months, and maybe even a 20% ROI by the end of the hardwares lifetime

of course this is just me being hopeful

[ak49er]

To be honest, no one really "took the risk". We all purchased based on verbal contract that things would be delivered within a certain time-frame. If they weren't delivered, then contract was violated. It isn't up to any purchaser to own up to the late boards/chips, they have every right to pursue any legal course of action to remedy the situation. No purchaser is at fault.

TH isn't going to send everyone extra boards or gen 2 boards for free and it won't matter anyway, the window of opportunity is closed or almost closed. Difficulty will be at or above 75 M by the time anyone here gets thier boards and will within two weeks be up to 100M. You needed to be mining through the pre 50M and 50M diff to hit your ROI.

Very true that no purchaser is at fault, but every purchaser most definitely took a risk when they pre-ordered with the full knowledge that a product didn't exist.  They took that risk so that they could be the first with the new boards.

I signed up for the emails from Terrahash before they opened up pre-orders.  I ultimately decided not to order because I wasn't prepared to take the risk of missed delivery.  I knew that that would put me behind the curve if they ever got the items to a point where I could order and get delivery within a few days to a week, but that's what I was most comfortable doing.  If I had more liquid assets to invest I might have seen things differently, but I definitely made the decision based on risk.  If anyone paid Terrahash money on a promise of goods and didn't see it as a risk, however trusting they were, then they're fools.  That's not to say that they don't deserve refunds if they want, or the goods they've purchased ASAP, but beyond that I don't see that they're owed anything for loss of ROI.

[Vigil]

To be honest, no one really "took the risk". We all purchased based on verbal contract that things would be delivered within a certain time-frame. If they weren't delivered, then contract was violated. It isn't up to any purchaser to own up to the late boards/chips, they have every right to pursue any legal course of action to remedy the situation. No purchaser is at fault.

TH isn't going to send everyone extra boards or gen 2 boards for free and it won't matter anyway, the window of opportunity is closed or almost closed. Difficulty will be at or above 75 M by the time anyone here gets thier boards and will within two weeks be up to 100M. You needed to be mining through the pre 50M and 50M diff to hit your ROI.

Very true that no purchaser is at fault, but every purchaser most definitely took a risk when they pre-ordered with the full knowledge that a product didn't exist.  They took that risk so that they could be the first with the new boards.

I signed up for the emails from Terrahash before they opened up pre-orders.  I ultimately decided not to order because I wasn't prepared to take the risk of missed delivery.  I knew that that would put me behind the curve if they ever got the items to a point where I could order and get delivery within a few days to a week, but that's what I was most comfortable doing.  If I had more liquid assets to invest I might have seen things differently, but I definitely made the decision based on risk.  If anyone paid Terrahash money on a promise of goods and didn't see it as a risk, however trusting they were, then they're fools.  That's not to say that they don't deserve refunds if they want, or the goods they've purchased ASAP, but beyond that I don't see that they're owed anything for loss of ROI.

The only risk they took was that they may have to use legal or PayPal/CC means to recoup their money in the case they weren't delivered on time or at all. They are owed, in a legal sense, any losses which they incurred due to late delivery. It doesn't always work out that the business has the assets to fulfill that and they often declare bankruptcy.

[Bitoy]

We just received 60 sample chips from Avalon. Apparently from the 20,000 chips order we placed on June 20th. There was no status updated on the order page, and we never received a tracking number. As knightlife pointed, some other people who placed order around the same time have received chips in the last couple days in the same fashion.

Suggestion,  create k16 boards from the sample chips and raffle it your customers ( got the idea from Sebastian's group

[MinermanNC]

Very vague at best... who was it that was calculating orders vs shipments? so out of 130k chips who can expect how much and when?
Do we/TH stand a chance, if this is really so? coud be another stall and delay move....from yifu. He is good a stringing people along. Lets hope its real.

Its not. Its already too late if you figure the difficulty increase. The ship has sailed. Had we got our units on the 15th at the latest, we probably would have ROIed. We should have had them earlier and we would have profited some.

Hey who knows...Terrahash may throw us all a little bonus to our favor, to help offset that difficulty increase. Even a bonus k16 or two, for half price or something creative that won't break their bank and would satsify all those who have hung tight and have suffered a difficulty increase while waiting. Now that would calm things down,,lol, IF the chips actually are enroute.

I am about to issue a claim with my credit card and get a refund, but I'd consider not doing that if TH were to offer up more K64 boards for my partially full DX-Large so I have some potential for ROI. Otherwise, I'll let Discover duke it out with them.

ya, same boat here

I don't see how you can force Terrahash in that position. It's not like they ordered extra chips because they knew they were going o shafted by Cloudhashing AND Bitsyncom.

You took the risk. And your products are almost here.

WHAT! nobody said anything about "forcing" anyone to do anything....quit trying to put words (text) in other peoples mouths/post in here...I just think it would be nice of them do to something special on their own for us...Now if your not interested in anything they may would like to do for us,,,than don't participate! We all know they owe us nothing more than the boards we ordered! DUHhhhh and quit twisting peoples words around for your retarted point of view.

[MinermanNC]

We just received 60 sample chips from Avalon. Apparently from the 20,000 chips order we placed on June 20th. There was no status updated on the order page, and we never received a tracking number. As knightlife pointed, some other people who placed order around the same time have received chips in the last couple days in the same fashion.

Suggestion,  create k16 boards from the sample chips and raffle it your customers ( got the idea from Sebastian's group

Now there ya go, just simple fun suggestions for maybe TH to think about, if and when the dust ever settles

[Bitoy]

Just did an estimation over at http://www.coinish.com/calc/#. Assuming an 11.7% reduction in profitability each week, I won't make $300 over the course of a year with 18 GH/s. Had we got these when we were supposed to I would have broke even around 30 days.

At some point, not sure when, the difficulty rise will drop-off drastically. This probably won't be for another year or two - once the mining companies start maximizing the ASIC performance.

If bitcoin price rises you can roi in Us$.  If you bought using bitcoins, you probably won't roi in bitcoins.

[ak49er]

The only risk they took was that they may have to use legal or PayPal/CC means to recoup their money in the case they weren't delivered on time or at all. They are owed, in a legal sense, any losses which they incurred due to late delivery. It doesn't always work out that the business has the assets to fulfill that and they often declare bankruptcy.

This I very much doubt.  While I'm certainly no legal expert I would think any contract implied would stretch only to the product and it's capabilities, i.e. hashrate.  Unless Terrahash used verbage to indiciate expected ROI then I doubt they can be held to any loss of income through late shippment.  I base this purely on my very limited knowledge that when multimillion dollar contracts are written, reviewed by legal teams and ultimately signed, there is often language contained in said contract that specifically discusses penalties owed from vendor to purchaser for late delivery.  I'm happy to be told I'm wrong by an actual legal expert or by anyone who can show me legal precedent, but while I understand your argument perfectly well, would it actually hold up in court?

As for the first part, the risk, I agree with you there for the most part.  I would say that the risk extends beyond having to fight to get the money back, to actually ever getting all or just some of it back, although buyer protection from PayPal/CC should alleviate that.

[Vigil]

The only risk they took was that they may have to use legal or PayPal/CC means to recoup their money in the case they weren't delivered on time or at all. They are owed, in a legal sense, any losses which they incurred due to late delivery. It doesn't always work out that the business has the assets to fulfill that and they often declare bankruptcy.

This I very much doubt.  While I'm certainly no legal expert I would think any contract implied would stretch only to the product and it's capabilities, i.e. hashrate.  Unless Terrahash used verbage to indicate expected ROI then I doubt they can be held to any loss of income through late shipment.  I base this purely on my very limited knowledge that when multimillion dollar contracts are written, reviewed by legal teams and ultimately signed, there is often language contained in said contract that specifically discusses penalties owed from vendor to purchaser for late delivery.  I'm happy to be told I'm wrong by an actual legal expert or by anyone who can show me legal precedent, but while I understand your argument perfectly well, would it actually hold up in court?

As for the first part, the risk, I agree with you there for the most part.  I would say that the risk extends beyond having to fight to get the money back, to actually ever getting all or just some of it back, although buyer protection from PayPal/CC should alleviate that.

People sue and win damages based on potential profit often for contractors who don't meet their deadlines. It doesn't need to do any ROI. You can claim compensatory damages which awards the plaintiff as if the contract had been fulfilled.

http://abramsonlegal.com/2009/09/money-damages-and-breach-of-contract-cases/

[ak49er]

People sue and win damages based on potential profit often for contractors who don't meet their deadlines. It doesn't need to do any ROI. You can claim compensatory damages which awards the plaintiff as if the contract had been fulfilled.

http://abramsonlegal.com/2009/09/money-damages-and-breach-of-contract-cases/

OK, I read the link, and while you can obviously sue for anything you'd like, nothing in the article you posted gives me any great confidence that you would be successful.  But I'm happy to concede the point as it does appear that you'd at least have a fighting chance.

[Vigil]

People sue and win damages based on potential profit often for contractors who don't meet their deadlines. It doesn't need to do any ROI. You can claim compensatory damages which awards the plaintiff as if the contract had been fulfilled.

http://abramsonlegal.com/2009/09/money-damages-and-breach-of-contract-cases/

OK, I read the link, and while you can obviously sue for anything you'd like, nothing in the article you posted gives me any great confidence that you would be successful.  But I'm happy to concede the point as it does appear that you'd at least have a fighting chance.

It isn't an article it is the website of an attorney who sues people for this very purpose. He wouldn't advertise it if it wasn't profitable - usually in those types of cases the attorneys are paid as some percentage of the awarded damages.

[ak49er]

It isn't an article it is the website of an attorney who sues people for this very purpose. He wouldn't advertise it if it wasn't profitable - usually in those types of cases the attorneys are paid as some percentage of the awarded damages.

I conceded.  Do you want me to wave a white flag too?

[MinermanNC]

Just did an estimation over at http://www.coinish.com/calc/#. Assuming an 11.7% reduction in profitability each week, I won't make $300 over the course of a year with 18 GH/s. Had we got these when we were supposed to I would have broke even around 30 days.

At some point, not sure when, the difficulty rise will drop-off drastically. This probably won't be for another year or two - once the mining companies start maximizing the ASIC performance.

If bitcoin price rises you can roi in Us$.  If you bought using bitcoins, you probably won't roi in bitcoins.

Thank you for that simple yet intelligent post. Yes your right and that is a point that is so looked over in all the threads while they are biatching about their roi's... if BTC 150.00 hey we're all fine for a while, 200,,,looking good, ...250. we smell like a rose If BTC does not rise, than we are all just chasing our own tails.

[justmyname]

Isn't their some way to find out exactly who is holding up those chips? why no tracking number? Whoever chose to hold up those chips (if they are truly being held up in customs) should be held accountable.  

[Vigil]

Just did an estimation over at http://www.coinish.com/calc/#. Assuming an 11.7% reduction in profitability each week, I won't make $300 over the course of a year with 18 GH/s. Had we got these when we were supposed to I would have broke even around 30 days.

At some point, not sure when, the difficulty rise will drop-off drastically. This probably won't be for another year or two - once the mining companies start maximizing the ASIC performance.

If bitcoin price rises you can roi in Us$.  If you bought using bitcoins, you probably won't roi in bitcoins.

Thank you for that simple yet intelligent post. Yes your right and that is a point that is so looked over in all the threads while they are biatching about their roi's... if BTC 150.00 hey we're all fine for a while, 200,,,looking good, ...250. we smell like a rose If BTC does not rise, than we are all just chasing our own tails.

No, if you don't make back your Bitcoin in terms of the price at which you made the ASIC pruchase than you lose. If you bought a miner at 1 BTC= $100 for $1000, if you don't mine at least 10 BTC in its lifetime or sooner really, you lost. You should never factor increasing price for ROI. If you are depending on increasing Bitcoin price then you should have bought 10 BTC when they were $100.

Stop spreading nonsense - more FUD to distract the noobs away from the fact that they are getting screwed with the late delivery.

[MinermanNC]

Just did an estimation over at http://www.coinish.com/calc/#. Assuming an 11.7% reduction in profitability each week, I won't make $300 over the course of a year with 18 GH/s. Had we got these when we were supposed to I would have broke even around 30 days.

At some point, not sure when, the difficulty rise will drop-off drastically. This probably won't be for another year or two - once the mining companies start maximizing the ASIC performance.

If bitcoin price rises you can roi in Us$.  If you bought using bitcoins, you probably won't roi in bitcoins.

Thank you for that simple yet intelligent post. Yes your right and that is a point that is so looked over in all the threads while they are biatching about their roi's... if BTC 150.00 hey we're all fine for a while, 200,,,looking good, ...250. we smell like a rose If BTC does not rise, than we are all just chasing our own tails.

No, if you don't make back your Bitcoin in terms of the price at which you made the ASIC pruchase than you lose. If you bought a miner at 1 BTC= $100 for $1000, if you don't mine at least 10 BTC in its lifetime or sooner really, you lost. You should never factor increasing price for ROI. If you are depending on increasing Bitcoin price then you should have bought 10 BTC when they were $100.

Stop spreading nonsense - more FUD to distract the noobs away from the fact that they are getting screwed with the late delivery.

lol

[atomicchaos]

FUD to distract from the FUD

FUDception

You keep holding onto the dream.. I'm out, gave them plenty of chances, but not waiting any more. Chargeback filed and will use the cash to buy ASICs for 50% of their original value approximately 1 month after they are received by the masses.

I'll keep tabs here, it'll be interesting to see you change your tune.

[mrthundercleese]

So an interesting thing happened yesterday to another non-bitcoin related pre-order I made recently.

Dear Valued Guest,

Thank you for shopping at Toys"R"Us and Babies"R"Us!

We wanted to inform you that we have not yet received inventory on your Wii U Infinity Starter Pack pre-order which was expected in-store on August 18th, 2013. We will send you a follow-up email once this item is available and ready for pickup.

If I've learned anything from this thread then I should be getting out my torch and pitch fork, calling my lawyer, filing a complaint with the FTC, and starting a riot.

hahahaha.

I post this just to illustrate that even non-startups have problems fulfilling pre-orders sometimes .

[Bitcoinorama]

FUD to distract from the FUD

FUDception

You keep holding onto the dream.. I'm out, gave them plenty of chances, but not waiting any more. Chargeback filed and will use the cash to buy ASICs for 50% of their original value approximately 1 month after they are received by the masses.

I'll keep tabs here, it'll be interesting to see you change your tune.

Don't worry about me, I've recently joined the 1%.

You believe Yifu??