Off-Topic

[atomicchaos]

I deserve to lose money because why?
Which words have I twisted?
What product are you talking about? The one that as of yet does not exist, but when it does will most certainly lose "customers" money?
Amir and Justin have dropped the ball in every single way possible, not sure where your delusional mind makes it so that they have done outstanding things, or even ordinary things or anything at all for that matter!
Most people are disagreeing with you, you seem to be implying that there is this vast silent magority that are behind you. Well lets see them?

He likes to hear himself talk and thinks he has an impact here. Just shake your head and laugh a little knowing the personality type you're dealing with.. Jesus complex.

[1713527164]

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[hammurabi]

I wonder why TerraHash have not registered its orders at group tracking page here:
Did something went wrong with ordering chips that tracking data cannot be revealed?

Tracking page:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=277198.0

[bluefin]

I wonder why TerraHash have not registered its orders at group tracking page here:
Did something went wrong with ordering chips that tracking data cannot be revealed?

Tracking page:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=277198.0

oh that is proprietary business information that if it got disclosed would ruin our business.
/s

Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that they lied about ordering chips?

[ak49er]

I'm legitimately curious - would you have the same opinion if, for example, you pre-ordered (and paid in full up front) say a PS4 from gamestop and they said no refunds, and then Sony didn't deliver PS4s to their customers, didn't tell anyone what what going on for weeks on end and then came up with some shaky excuses and went silent again and nobody had any idea when or even if the PS4s would ever show up?
Would you just sit back and say yo gamestop it's cool; I know it's not your fault and you've got my money, and I have no merchandise, but I'll just wait until who knows when?
What if the unthinkable occurred and the PS4s never showed up?  What would you do then?

 

I'll give you a legitimate response.  One that seems to escape most people.  If you buy on pre-order a PS4 from Sony you're buying a 4th generation product from an electronics giant.  A company that's been around for a few decades.  If you equate Terrahash, a company that has only just been created, with the sole purpose of making a bitcoin mining rig with Avalon chips that are as rare as hens teeth, then you're bat shit crazy delusional.

And if in the case of the PS4 being non-deliverable you know that Sony would do a full refund, because the pre-orders they took weren't to fund its development, but a marketing ploy to generate demand and a feeding frenzy.

Be pissed all you want, its an aggravating situation all around, but try at least to hang on to some sense of reality.  Comparing a fledgling company in a fledgling industry to the likes of Sony is one step away from that reality.

[bluefin]

I'm legitimately curious - would you have the same opinion if, for example, you pre-ordered (and paid in full up front) say a PS4 from gamestop and they said no refunds, and then Sony didn't deliver PS4s to their customers, didn't tell anyone what what going on for weeks on end and then came up with some shaky excuses and went silent again and nobody had any idea when or even if the PS4s would ever show up?
Would you just sit back and say yo gamestop it's cool; I know it's not your fault and you've got my money, and I have no merchandise, but I'll just wait until who knows when?
What if the unthinkable occurred and the PS4s never showed up?  What would you do then?

 

I'll give you a legitimate response.  One that seems to escape most people.  If you buy on pre-order a PS4 from Sony you're buying a 4th generation product from an electronics giant.  A company that's been around for a few decades.  If you equate Terrahash, a company that has only just been created, with the sole purpose of making a bitcoin mining rig with Avalon chips that are as rare as hens teeth, then you're bat shit crazy delusional.

And if in the case of the PS4 being non-deliverable you know that Sony would do a full refund, because the pre-orders they took weren't to fund its development, but a marketing ploy to generate demand and a feeding frenzy.

Be pissed all you want, its an aggravating situation all around, but try at least to hang on to some sense of reality.  Comparing a fledgling company in a fledgling industry to the likes of Sony is one step away from that reality.

Here is the problem with your statement:

The difference is that it doesn't matter whether they are a 100 year old billion $ company or a brand new start-up, neither company can use customer money to fund their business, that is called investing, non of us agreed to invest in their company, did you? would you?

This is not kickstarter!

[Vigil]

I wonder why TerraHash have not registered its orders at group tracking page here:
Did something went wrong with ordering chips that tracking data cannot be revealed?

Tracking page:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=277198.0

TerraHsh, can you provide which of these batches are yours?

[kkooks]

I wonder why TerraHash have not registered its orders at group tracking page here:
Did something went wrong with ordering chips that tracking data cannot be revealed?

Tracking page:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=277198.0

TerraHsh, can you provide which of these batches are yours?

I know the answer

"we didnt actually place an order for the asics! Just in case avalon didnt deliver we could refund part of the monies!"

Lmao

[mrthundercleese]

I'm legitimately curious - would you have the same opinion if, for example, you pre-ordered (and paid in full up front) say a PS4 from gamestop and they said no refunds, and then Sony didn't deliver PS4s to their customers, didn't tell anyone what what going on for weeks on end and then came up with some shaky excuses and went silent again and nobody had any idea when or even if the PS4s would ever show up?
Would you just sit back and say yo gamestop it's cool; I know it's not your fault and you've got my money, and I have no merchandise, but I'll just wait until who knows when?
What if the unthinkable occurred and the PS4s never showed up?  What would you do then?

 

I'll give you a legitimate response.  One that seems to escape most people.  If you buy on pre-order a PS4 from Sony you're buying a 4th generation product from an electronics giant.  A company that's been around for a few decades.  If you equate Terrahash, a company that has only just been created, with the sole purpose of making a bitcoin mining rig with Avalon chips that are as rare as hens teeth, then you're bat shit crazy delusional.

And if in the case of the PS4 being non-deliverable you know that Sony would do a full refund, because the pre-orders they took weren't to fund its development, but a marketing ploy to generate demand and a feeding frenzy.

Be pissed all you want, its an aggravating situation all around, but try at least to hang on to some sense of reality.  Comparing a fledgling company in a fledgling industry to the likes of Sony is one step away from that reality.

Here is the problem with your statement:

The difference is that it doesn't matter whether they are a 100 year old billion $ company or a brand new start-up, neither company can use customer money to fund their business, that is called investing, non of us agreed to invest in their company, did you? would you?

This is not kickstarter!

You aren't entirely wrong. However, we knew the lines where blurry and we put our money in anyway. Call it customer, investor, investomer, or something else. History should have highlighted the risks of this pre-order business. Things can go wrong and I'm not going to bash TH for something that was out of their control. Have they done some things wrong, sure and they owned up to it. They've shown hospitality in this thread and to those who visited them so I'm not seeing the evilness.

Most people are disagreeing with you, you seem to be implying that there is this vast silent magority that are behind you. Well lets see them?

Just because there are a few squeaky wheels on here doesn't make them a majority hah. If most people were disagreeing with me then Terrahash would be bankrupt right now. But since you insist on playing the "Who's on my side game" I'll just toss names here on people that disagree with YOU

In order that I scan through the thread

mrthundercleese
-Redacted-
BlIiTtZz
gbx
knightlife999
ak49er

Just to name a few,

Oh and again everyone that has a PayPal or Credit Card order and has not asked for a refund.

Check and Mate

Everyone knows that the unhappy people always make the most noise.

[MinermanNC]

Food for thought....

My 45 g/hash's of boards ordered on June 18th would have earned about $128.00 per day in BTC (then). Now 45 gh will earn a hair over $39.00 and dropping like a lead ballon    so sad for all of us,,,and I'm not blaming TH at all, in this observation.

[-Redacted-]

Yes, well it was a good try.  I'll certainly never buy anything that has something to do with Avalon again, unless it's available, in stock, and can be had next day delivery.   I have no respect left for Yifu and BitSyncom, he screwed over the entire DIY community.

[ak49er]

Here is the problem with your statement:

The difference is that it doesn't matter whether they are a 100 year old billion $ company or a brand new start-up, neither company can use customer money to fund their business, that is called investing, non of us agreed to invest in their company, did you? would you?

This is not kickstarter!

No I didn't.  I might have, but I didn't have the cash available.  But I was seriously considering it.  However, I've read enough about Butterfly Labs to know the risks, and it wasn't a risk I was willing to take.  The same information that I used to make my decision was available to everyone else, including you.  Some are willing to wait it out, although I doubt they're happy about it.  Some want refunds.  Some just want to complain.  Me, I was just too much of a pussy to send the money.

You may not have agreed to invest, but ultimately that's what you did.  If you didn't realize it then you've only yourself to blame for that.  It seemed pretty obvious to me.  Terrahash has stated time and again that delivery will be two weeks after receipt of chips, and as of yet they're true to their word.

I'll say it again, kickstarter or not, comparing a startup business with a multibillion dollar corporation is ludicrous.  Even if Terrahash didn't need your money to buy chips from Avalon you were still willing to trust an unknown business with it.  Even with the best of intentions new businesses sometimes fail, (and it's not a rare occurrence).  Sometimes they truly are scammers, in which case as soon as pre-orders were filled they would have disappeared off the face of the earth and you'd never see a dime again.  The obvious seems to escape people on here, but Terrahash are nothing more than a struggling startup trying to bring a product to market while they're underfunded and up against supply issues beyond their control.  And anyone who sent them money should have sent it in the full knowledge that that was the case and they're not goddamnedmotherfuckingSony.

[MinermanNC]

Yes, well it was a good try.  I'll certainly never buy anything that has something to do with Avalon again, unless it's available, in stock, and can be had next day delivery.   I have no respect left for Yifu and BitSyncom, he screwed over the entire DIY community.

Ditto

[MinermanNC]

It could be worse I guess, ya could be one of those poor souls on Ebay still trying to sell a BFL pre order almost a year old.... which will make little or no money..... and to you guys that are still trying to sell  Klondike boards on ebay, how can you even attempt to sell, (in good conscience), knowing the chips situation. I feel in someways you are discrediting the Klondike Design or its Manufactures by posting them in there under the circumstances,,,,kinda looks and aligns itself to the Butterfly's Labs debacle. Lets try to preserve the Klondike Reputation. You will sell them faster and make more money if you wait until you have them in hand. Whenever that may be

[knightlife999]

Member of Silent Majority here:

TH have 40k chips on order. I personally saw the Bitsyncom order page with Amir's name and address as the person ordering the chips. I posted the pictures weeks ago.

Aside from the constant complaining from our script kiddie friends who live in their parent's basements, I'm sure the large majority of buyers are just quietly waiting and hoping to receive their boards as soon as possible.

Everyone in the bitcoin community are waiting for something guys. Everyone. The only people who aren't upset and frustrated about their orders are KNC miner buyers. I'm sure if we get beyond 9/02 without an order sent out, the guys at KNC will start getting a barrage of freaked out posts. TH and all of the other companies are to one degree or another, startups. How many startups have you given your money to in the past? Startups have growing pains, delayed shipments, logistical problems, and other unforeseen issues to tackle. I think that TH has done a pretty good job at working through the issues. They noted that the customer service aspects were lacking and they said that it will be fixed. All other areas look like they are doing the very best they can given the circumstances. The fact that they didn't spend all of the money we sent them showed shrewd planning on their part. Instead of spending nearly every penny they sent us on parts (their profit margin is very thin), they decided to hold off until they received tracking numbers from Bitsyncom. That has allowed them to have the funds available to refund the people who don't have the stomach to wait. However those refunds were processed (whether forced by Paypal or not), they had the foresight to keep some of the funds available so that you could get your refund. That money isn't pulled from some magical place by Paypal. It has to come from the Seller. Otherwise they freeze the Seller's account.

I don't know why certain individuals can't understand that we all are being screwed over by Bitsyncom (Yifu), TH included. Put yourself in Amir's place right now. I'm sure you will say that you would do everything differently and give some pie in the sky speech about how you would have used your own money to buy all of the parts and held everyone's funds in escrow, but that is not how a startup functions.

When you get right down to it, you guys just want to complain. I'm sure that when you get your boards, you'll complain about the quality of the packing material used or some such other bs.

Everyone that is on the fence about this: don't listen to these guys who say that we should all get refunds immediately. Not only would it cause great problems for TH, more importantly, it will harm everyone else who is waiting patiently for their boards.

If you want a refund, put in for a refund and stop filling this thread with garbage. We have said that for the last couple of months. File for your refund and leave everyone alone. Stop trying to convince everyone to join you, like some kid on a playground: "Is everyone with me? Let's get out of here!"

Yes difficulty is rising, but so is the price of BTC. Since it's inception, BTC has basically doubled in value each year. Think about what that would mean for next year. Not bad ROI. In addition to mining, I'm using a bot to trade BTC and it's doing very well. Diversification is the key to success in any investment.

We are all taking a chance on this together, and if we're right, we will do very well. If we are wrong, lesson learned. Don't invest money in something if you can't stomach losing it. Buy bonds or stock in Coca Cola. Like forex, BTC is for grown ups.

[Vigil]

Yes difficulty is rising, but so is the price of BTC. Since it's inception, BTC has basically doubled in value each year. Think about what that would mean for next year. Not bad ROI. In addition to mining, I'm using a bot to trade BTC and it's doing very well. Diversification is the key to success in any investment.

Irrelevant. If you need BTC price to rise above the price it was at when you made your purchase to break even or make a profit you made the wrong choice.

[knightlife999]

Yes difficulty is rising, but so is the price of BTC. Since it's inception, BTC has basically doubled in value each year. Think about what that would mean for next year. Not bad ROI. In addition to mining, I'm using a bot to trade BTC and it's doing very well. Diversification is the key to success in any investment.

Irrelevant. If you need BTC price to rise above the price it was at when you made your purchase to break even or make a profit you made the wrong choice.

Not if you are investing in BTC for the long run. ASIC sellers are not selling ROI, they are selling products that mine Bitcoins. I'm in Bitcoin for the long run, and I expect that my miners will more than make ROI in the long run. If someone got into this to make a quick buck (which is clear that many people did), they are in the wrong state of mind for an investor.

[atomicchaos]

Member of Silent Majority here:


When you get right down to it, you guys just want to complain. I'm sure that when you get your boards, you'll complain about the quality of the packing material used or some such other bs.

Everyone that is on the fence about this: don't listen to these guys who say that we should all get refunds immediately. Not only would it cause great problems for TH, more importantly, it will harm everyone else who is waiting patiently for their boards.

No, most of us just want to point out very valid complaints that still go unresolved and then listen to others state how baseless they are when it is plain as day. Customer service sucks before the product even ships? What the hell happens when they are hosting your boxes, or you have hardware issues? It's a valid concern, and will gladly put it to rest when we hear tickets getting answered on things as simple as account questions.

There are valid complaints out there, and there are some over the top complaints. The facts are that they have broken various promises that they made since day 1, and therefore have not earned blind trust. Yes, we get it, you are protecting your investment, but lets be honest here.. In terms of refunds, they already stated that if the chips didn't show, they would try to refund a portion of the money. Huh? Who gave them that right? They may be in the Cryptoworld, but things don't work that way in the US.

I think that is why people had a sudden interest in getting refunds, at least those that were wise enough to use a mitigated risk strategy.

Let's not make TH a victim here.  I think Terrahash has big boy pants, and when they chose to run a business primarily on other people's money, they took a bigger risk. Let them speak for themselves, as neither you nor Bargraphics have any official affiliation with Terrahash, and last I knew, they didn't appoint either one of you as official spokespeople. You mock people that don't want to lose money? Maybe you give up on your money too easily, I myself, tend to make it work for me, and don't turn my back to money that tries to walk away when it can easily be brought back to me. Maybe the true lesson is that you shouldn't use a method you can't easily get back when the risk turns to be too great, and the product you purchased takes longer than expected, regardless of whose fault it is. A wise farmer that has a field full of corn, is still going to do everything he can to keep a crow from eating a single stalk of corn.

You see your task on this mission as protecting the subject at any cost, whether it means ignoring valid concerns and trying to dismiss every negative statement about TH, true or false. You'd gain a lot more credibility if you accepted and acknowledged the legitimate complaints. Myself, I don't like cheerleaders that route for their team no matter what, and my garbage will be here as long as the cheerleaders keep spewing crap like your last message.

If someone got into this to make a quick buck (which is clear that many people did), they are in the wrong state of mind for an investor customer.

I corrected your mistake in the above quote.

[knightlife999]

Member of Silent Majority here:


When you get right down to it, you guys just want to complain. I'm sure that when you get your boards, you'll complain about the quality of the packing material used or some such other bs.

Everyone that is on the fence about this: don't listen to these guys who say that we should all get refunds immediately. Not only would it cause great problems for TH, more importantly, it will harm everyone else who is waiting patiently for their boards.

No, most of us just want to point out very valid complaints that still go unresolved and then listen to others state how baseless they are when it is plain as day. Customer service sucks before the product even ships? What the hell happens when they are hosting your boxes, or you have hardware issues? It's a valid concern, and will gladly put it to rest when we hear tickets getting answered on things as simple as account questions.

There are valid complaints out there, and there are some over the top complaints. The facts are that they have broken various promises that they made since day 1, and therefore have not earned blind trust. Yes, we get it, you are protecting your investment, but lets be honest here.. In terms of refunds, they already stated that if the chips didn't show, they would try to refund a portion of the money. Huh? Who gave them that right? They may be in the Cryptoworld, but things don't work that way in the US.

I think that is why people had a sudden interest in getting refunds, at least those that were wise enough to use a mitigated risk strategy.

Let's not make TH a victim here.  I think Terrahash has big boy pants, and when they chose to run a business primarily on other people's money, they took a bigger risk. Let them speak for themselves, as neither you nor Bargraphics have any official affiliation with Terrahash, and last I knew, they didn't appoint either one of you as official spokespeople. You mock people that don't want to lose money? Maybe you give up on your money too easily, I myself, tend to make it work for me, and don't turn my back to money that tries to walk away when it can easily be brought back to me. Maybe the true lesson is that you shouldn't use a method you can't easily get back when the risk turns to be too great, and the product you purchased takes longer than expected, regardless of whose fault it is. A wise farmer that has a field full of corn, is still going to do everything he can to keep a crow from eating a single stalk of corn.

You see your task on this mission as protecting the subject at any cost, whether it means ignoring valid concerns and trying to dismiss every negative statement about TH, true or false. You'd gain a lot more credibility if you accepted and acknowledged the legitimate complaints. Myself, I don't like cheerleaders that route for their team no matter what, and my garbage will be here as long as the cheerleaders keep spewing crap like your last message.

If someone got into this to make a quick buck (which is clear that many people did), they are in the wrong state of mind for an investor customer.

I corrected your mistake in the above quote.

Not a mistake.
I'm referring to why we are involved in Bitcoin in general atomic. We aren't customers of Bitcoin. We are buying products that allow us to invest time and money in Bitcoin. We are investors. Looking beyond the little world of this TH thread and others, we are investors.
I'm protecting my investment, btw. If you all try to force TH into bankruptcy, we all lose.

[knightlife999]

And for the record, you'll note that I didn't say that you shouldn't get a refund. I just said that you should go ahead and get your refund. Just don't try to sway everyone else to join you. I am very displeased with the delay, but I know it's not Th's fault. People can say that they should have had every part in stock because the chips could have arrived early. They are in silicon valley and all of those parts are within a day of arrival when ordered.

We have been screwed over by Bitsyncom. The negative crew acknowledges that, but then continues their tirades against TH for issues that are in the past, have no bearing on chips, or are deficits that may or may not truly exist. I know you guys would like everyone to join your bandwagon and mass refund. That is ridiculous, and we could all end up losing all or part of our money. So, aside from that, what do all of the negative crew recommend that we do?

Let's hear some constructive ideas. Not whining here on the thread, calling the FTC, or mass refunds. We've all heard those ideas. What constructive ideas do any of you have to get us our boards?

Here is my idea: the people who are wigging out here every day should put in for refunds. I'm sure there are more people that are resigned to waiting for their products than are wanting refunds. Then you can be happy with getting your money back and you can pay Bitfury of KNC for their miners. If they run behind, you can hound them on their threads.

I just don't see any point in screaming from the hilltops every day on this thread when all you have to do is put in for a refund. If you payed with BTC or wire transfer, I am sorry. The daily nitpicking of minutiae is truly ridiculous. I've been to TH/s office twice, interviewed them, shown proof of their orders. Others have verified the components stacked in TH/s office waiting for the chips to arrive.

We all are feeling pain to one extent or another guys. It's understandable. I'm not thrilled by any stretch of the imagination to have to wait for weeks or months (BFL orders) for products I have ordered. It's frustrating and frankly, depressing. 

All we can do now is wait for the chips to arrive, or ask for refunds. Make your choice. It's as simple as that.      

[atomicchaos]

Not a mistake.
I'm referring to why we are involved in Bitcoin in general atomic. We aren't customers of Bitcoin. We are buying products that allow us to invest time and money in Bitcoin. We are investors. Looking beyond the little world of this TH thread and others, we are investors.
I'm protecting my investment, btw. If you all try to force TH into bankruptcy, we all lose.

Nobody is forcing TH into Bankruptcy by posting valid issues, in fact if they were planning on being around after this initial batch, it would be wise to make improvements, or at least explain why it is happening. We'd all love to hear that it is because they are too busy working on the technical details, but then we see a rather arrogant metaphor from them, when it could have been so much simpler to explain why this is a problem. I don't want to see TH out of business, I want to see them answering their customer support tickets. A company with problems doesn't fix them by ignoring customer issues. I already stated, I get why they ignore the refund requests, but why the address changes, and every other minor question? They setup this support system, why would someone have to call 90 times to reach them, or show up in person to address a simple account issue? TH comes here admits it, says they are going to improve, and I say actions would speak louder than words. Answer those support tickets on hosting, addresses, status issues, etc. and put this to rest, instead of having the cheerleaders on the forum act as blockers.

If refunds are going to force bankruptcy, I guess they should have worked on keeping customers happy by responding to the legit requests and follow through with things they say they will do. I'm not supporting those that called for pictures every step of the way, but in the garbage spewed from both the cheerleaders and the people complaining about TH, there are legit concerns.

Not clear on how this pointless back and forth helps your cause of protecting your investment. Every time I see you guys attacking a valid concern, or trying to imply people concerned about getting their money back shouldn't have invested in this in the first place, I'll be replying and clarifying the incorrect points. Keep your "badges" going guys, I don't need anything for calling out people that make TH sound like a victim.

And I reiterate, I'm not an investor in this particular venture, I'm a customer. I didn't buy shares in their company as I did ASICminer, I bought their product. Did I invest in Cisco when I buy a network switch that runs the equipment to make me money? What if I'm buying stocks through that switch?