Off-Topic

[Silvas]

Fair points,

Let's say I believe somewhat in Karma, at least in that you can try to justify something as much as you want and as long as you want but only YOU truly know if regardless of legalities if what you did was morally and ethically correct.

I personally understand TH's position and every DIY's position out there and would rather give them a chance to make things right or give them a chance to get that refund from Yifi, provide a product, or do whatever they have to do before giving them a chargeback. This is correct morally and ethically based on the type of product I purchased from them at least for me. They only need 1-2 months maximum to get back to customers with what they were able to accomplish in this area, if there is no product, there is no partial refund and a product, there isn't a full refund, then yes action can be taken.

If you feel self justified to try and kill a company that literally came into this space trying to help miners by asking for a mass exodus of refunds then go ahead no one is stopping you. Just understand you have to live with that fact that you value greed over integrity.

There's really not much else to say, there's no argument to be had on this discussion. Obviously there's a simple difference in belief on this matter regardless of Law.

Ok fair enough.  Personal morals/ethics are just that - personal and individual.  To each their own.

Just a few small points - lets say the chips don't arrive.  This isn't a small claims court thing.  If they have to go after Bitsyncom, we're talking most likely years before that's resolved through the courts.  In the meantime, we probably wouldn't see anything (since the money they do have left they would need to use to fund the litigation).  Even after getting a judgment you still have to actually collect on it which isn't as easy as a lot of people think.  We aren't talking months here.

Also, they did not come into this space out of altruism and just wanting to help miners - come on.  They didn't do this out of the goodness of their hearts; they saw a space where tons of profit is being made, they wanted in, they started a business to capitalize on a very profitable business space right now.  They're here for profit.
I'm not saying I want to kill this business, but I'm not going to take blame for killing it.  As I've pointed out in another post, they made some pretty big mistakes in how they started this whole thing, things no business should ever do, and helped themselves into this position.  Not to mention the fact that a small order like mine is hardly going to kill them.

[1715180313]

1715180313

[1715180313]

1715180313

[1715180313]

1715180313

[Silvas]

If the chips don't arrive it will more than likely be a class action against Avalon, where everyone that ordered chips directly from them would get some sort of compensation. That being said it would then be on Terrahash to push some of that towards us.

Terrahash also has parts and can resell them.

But honestly, I believe chips will start arriving by next week some time.

So far I don't know what "Big Mistakes" you are talking about unless you consider not responding to every demand/troll post. They probably could have communicated a little bit better.

However as far as them having parts on order but not taking delivery or paying for them until we knew the chips were coming is actually a good business decision. Terrahash isn't stupid, they know that if there's no product they would have to try and refund as much as they can.

All of this being said, maybe those that stay and wait it out will get some sort of coupon or discount on their next purchase (I have a lot more faith in bitfury at this point than Avalon). That also being said, Avalon did a good job shipping out Batch 1 and 2 so bitfury could still pull an Avalon hah.

I might be a little biased in this whole Refund situation only because I've mitigated my losses by making large profits elsewhere (Don't put all your eggs in one basket) while some of you might have fully bet on this horse winning the race.

All of this being said, all of you guys do realise that 10 people complaining on this thread is probably <0.5% of their total orders and like even less of their total income from this venture.

The mistakes I'm referring to I've already detailed in another post after the one you originally quoted.  Essentially they took that huge order before they opened pre-orders up to us and used the money from the order to buy the chips which they had no reasonable guarantee of being delivered on time (Bitsyncom has a well established history of not delivering on time) and didn't get a legally binding contract.
They didn't have any capital to start their business, they used customer order money to do it - ALWAYS a bad idea.  It's too risky.  By their own admission in this thread, they then compounded that error by opening more pre-orders to get money to fund the refund to the initial huge order from cloudhashing.  Again, insanely bad idea.  Using customer money from later orders to pay out an earlier customer is actually quite illegal, if for no other reason than it places you firmly in ponzi scheme territory (even though it's not investing). 

All of that is secondary to my main point - which wasn't to complain so much as to point out that people going after refunds due to the situation changing very unfavorably and the risk level increasing are not in any way committing fraud or doing anything morally or ethically wrong.
There's no point in me complaining at this time - I've requested my refund from TH for my small order and explained why.  If they choose to not issue it, or ignore me, then I'll let my bank deal with the situation.  It's that simple. 
I'll fully admit I could be jumping the gun, and maybe this will all work out.  Maybe everyone will get their boards (albeit after the network difficulty has gone so high that nobody ever makes their money back without a huge jump in BTC price), or maybe the chips ship today.  At this point I don't have any faith that Bitsyncom will deliver, nor do I think they'll make it right.  I think a lot of people are going to get burned here.
If TH cancels my order and the chips ship the next day, oh well.  That's on me, I won't even be upset over it.

[atomicchaos]

All of this being said, all of you guys do realise that 10 people complaining on this thread is probably <0.5% of their total orders and like even less of their total income from this venture.

I don't see complaining, I see a very intelligent discussion up until this last comment. You do realize that most of the people that bought aren't posting, but quietly reading here feeling the same way as most of us. It's all but about 3-4 of you that have blindly supported the refund issue, and nobody even wants to talk about the lack of response to customer account issues and transfer of ownership requests.

Customers do not assume the risk of the place that they purchase from, and TH's last comment on partial refunds was yet another example of how they may very well be brilliant in terms of putting together ASICs, they have not made very wise business decisions. And along the Karma route, I'm a firm believer in Karma as well, and when you take a business that refuses to respond to normal account questions and also is not delivering, for whatever reason it might be outside of their control, you have a company that has blown the good karma.

That and the fact that emotion has no place in business (TH did this to help miners, really?), I'm not assuming any risk for TH. You on the other hand, have no choice, but as you stated, you've mitigated your losses. I say not well enough, as a loss is a loss. But you seem to be licking your wounds and trying to convince yourself this is no big deal. I have many Crypto investments myself, and bring in 2 BTC a day (after conversion) with my Scrypt mining operation. While everyone was focused on the ASIC race, I built out a very large farm that is ahead of schedule on ROI. This ASIC was meant to help round my operation, and I backed the wrong company, so I will be simply buying ASICs when they mass ship at a 50% discount now when people try and recoup some of their losses. I expected this discount in August, but with shipping delays, only the USB miners have dropped like a rock. Once all the chips arrive and the market is flooded, the same will happen with the rest of the ASICs.

I completely respect Knight's opinion on TH, and think that he's presented many of his comments in defense of TH very well. You on the other hand, tend to try and discredit all that post any legitimate concern, and repeat in almost every message about how you are okay with your loss because you did so well with other Crypto investments.. I'll let people make their own judgments on that one.

I have to thank Silvas for stating the issue so well, and keeping emotion out of the post, as neither Bar, nor myself are able to do that.

[atomicchaos]

I only discredit your posts because legitimate concern does not sound like what you write, it sounds like what Silvas writes. Please take notes for the future. Otherwise I think I just earned one more badges and a whole pack of trident layers.

I'm creating a drinking game to coincide with the number of posts you make trying to convince us all that you'll be alright.. We're all very happy about that. I find that those who like to imply they have lots of money, are usually the ones that have the least, unless they are just lacking in other areas and compensating.

I agree, what Silvas wrote was very well stated, and much better put than when I wrote to the same effect. No one even mentioned any issue with TH's post about partial refunds until I brought it up. On the same note, you might take some notes from Knight to help you better make your case in the future.

I hope those badges help you mine Bitcoins!

[atomicchaos]

I only discredit your posts because legitimate concern does not sound like what you write, it sounds like what Silvas writes. Please take notes for the future. Otherwise I think I just earned one more badges and a whole pack of trident layers.

I'm creating a drinking game to coincide with the number of posts you make trying to convince us all that you'll be alright.. We're all very happy about that. I find that those who like to imply they have lots of money, are usually the ones that have the least, unless they are just lacking in other areas and compensating.

I agree, what Silvas wrote was very well stated, and much better put than when I wrote to the same effect. No one even mentioned any issue with TH's post about partial refunds until I brought it up. On the same note, you might take some notes from Knight to help you better make your case in the future.

I hope those badges help you mine Bitcoins!

There's no convincing anyone else only you, because you alone are so worried about me based on your previous posts. I just want to make sure you know that I'll be ok. I appreciate you being worried.

I don't collect badges to mine bitcoins, I collect them to remind me our times together.

I feel much at ease, I didn't want your ego to take a hit again. I'll fondly remember our days together when this is over..

[bearsworth]

I think I asked this a while back, but where are the DX-mini pictures? Weren't these supposed to be delivered ages ago?

[MinermanNC]

A snipit from coindesk article:

One of the first to try and source Avalon chips was TerraHash, which has been producing two mining boards: a 4.5 GH/sec unit with 16 chips, and a 64 chip 18 GH/sec model. The firm will sell the boards individually, but has also been offering preassembled boxes that can take either the 4.5 GH/sec boards, or the 18 GH/sec units. The DX Mini offers up to 90 GH/sec with 20 of the smaller boards. The DX Large will take up to 10 of the bigger boards, for a total of 180 GH/sec.
 
The problem for this company is that it is still waiting on Avalon chips, and hasn’t been able to fulfill customer orders. That’s unfortunate, because the company had changed its policy in June to begin accepting preorders – and later decided to change its refund policy, declaring all orders final. The company would not return our calls.
 
Avalon says that it is still waiting for its chips, 200,000 of which it says are stuck in customs. It has 800,000 orders to fill, it admits. It has also battled allegations that it was mining with its own chips.

http://www.coindesk.com/asic-bitcoin-miner-arms-race-the-definitive-coindesk-roundup/

Of course we all know the rest of the story"

[WastedLTC]

And if any of you are interested I've got a bridge to sell ....

preorder?

[gbx]

I'm one who bought and isn't participating much in this thread...

So what's the latest "short version" of the story? 

Chips are stuck in customs, and are "two weeks" away from delivery from Avalon?

TerraHash has all the other parts necessary to build/ship/deliver other than Avalon chips?

[MinermanNC]

I'm one who bought and isn't participating much in this thread...

So what's the latest "short version" of the story? 

Chips are stuck in customs, and are "two weeks" away from delivery from Avalon?

TerraHash has all the other parts necessary to build/ship/deliver other than Avalon chips?

not sure about the 2 weeks away from delivery,,,maybe never  all else is correct

[Syke]

TerraHash has all the other parts necessary to build/ship/deliver other than Avalon chips?

No they do not.

1. PSUs: Not in
2. Cases: Not in
3. PCBs: Not in
4. BOM components: Yes!

[Silvas]

I'm one who bought and isn't participating much in this thread...

So what's the latest "short version" of the story? 

Chips are stuck in customs, and are "two weeks" away from delivery from Avalon?

TerraHash has all the other parts necessary to build/ship/deliver other than Avalon chips?

not sure about the 2 weeks away from delivery,,,maybe never  all else is correct

Allegedly, the chips are supposed to start moving again by the end of this week last I heard according to Yifu.
There's still been no data offered on who those chips are going to, whether any of TH' chips are even on the way or not.
That's IF you believe Yifu, and I don't trust anything he says.  I don't trust him even as far as I could pick up and throw a big tractor trailer.

At this point, IMO everyone would be wise to do an assessment for themselves of whether they think the chips will ever arrive, and whether TH is in a position to deliver if/when they do and then act accordingly.
I won't recommend cancelling and trying to get a refund, nor will I recommend sticking it out.  I've made my decision for myself, and everyone else has to do the same (or has already).

[-Redacted-]

TerraHash has all the other parts necessary to build/ship/deliver other than Avalon chips?

No they do not.

1. PSUs: Not in
2. Cases: Not in
3. PCBs: Not in
4. BOM components: Yes!

PSUs - 2 day delivery item
Cases - have been sampled, probably a one week delivery item.  Not everyone bought a case
PCBs - 5 day turn item.

There isn't anything here that Terrahash can't get their hands on, in large quantities, in a timely fashion.

[Syke]

PSUs - 2 day delivery item
Cases - have been sampled, probably a one week delivery item.  Not everyone bought a case
PCBs - 5 day turn item.

There isn't anything here that Terrahash can't get their hands on, in large quantities, in a timely fashion.

Assuming nothing goes wrong, which it always does. Bitfury thought they had PCBs. Turns out the factory forgot 2 of the layers. Things can and will go wrong. Unless the items are already physically at TH, they are a risk factor.

[-Redacted-]

PSUs - 2 day delivery item
Cases - have been sampled, probably a one week delivery item.  Not everyone bought a case
PCBs - 5 day turn item.

There isn't anything here that Terrahash can't get their hands on, in large quantities, in a timely fashion.

Assuming nothing goes wrong, which it always does. Bitfury thought they had PCBs. Turns out the factory forgot 2 of the layers. Things can and will go wrong. Unless the items are already physically at TH, they are a risk factor.

SO how many cases do you think they sold?  Tens-of-thousands?  More like hundreds.  They can order that many PSUs off Amazon and get free two-day delivery for crying out-loud.  Since the pc-boards are being produced locally, they can test the first one off the line and know if there are any problems immediately - unlike Bitfury, who was having them made in China.  

You worry way too much - I've had a lot more complex projects built in under a week with shipping qtys in the thousands.  You forget - they're in Silicon valley where there's a 2-day turn PCBoard shop on nearly every other corner, and not in Podunk, Kansas where there's nothing much around except corn...

[MinermanNC]

Im beginning to think yifu doesn't have a clue as to where the chips are...mush less anyone else" which is lame. We/I really need to hear something today.

[bearsworth]

Im beginning to think yifu doesn't have a clue as to where the chips are...mush less anyone else" which is lame. We/I really need to hear something today.

I'm also beginning to think difficulty is going to reduce the ROI to not much. The only winnig hand is if bitcoins increase in value. If it does, you actually can make quite a bit with 52% difficulty increase each month.

[Flying Hellfish]

And just to be clear, I'm not bashing TH on this.  I'm not saying they're bad, or scamming people, or anything of the sort.  This whole situation falls almost 100% on Bitsyncom.
I say almost 100% because TH made a few very grave mistakes and put themselves in this position.

First mistake - starting a business with customer money.  They took a huge order from the one company (I forget the name right now) and used the money to order chips.
Second mistake - not getting a legally binding contract specifying that the customer could not cancel the order once the chips had been ordered, or at least specifying that the customer's recourse would be that they would be given ownership interest in any judgment obtained against Bitsyncom in the event of non-delivery of the chips.

Third mistake - when they got a cancellation demand, opening pre-orders to more people to get funds to cover their refund and their first 2 mistakes, kicking the can forward and putting themselves in an untenable position.  Honestly I don't even see how they could have thought that was a good idea.  Surely you'd see that this is just below the lip of a very very slippery slope.  You've already had one person cancel and put you in a bind, how do you think it's not going to happen again?  How do you think it's legal, or even right, to take other people's money and use it to pay your previous customers knowing damned well that if it goes bad you'll be unable to refund the new customers?  Do you know what that's called?  A ponzi scheme.  Even though it's not investing, it's the same principle.  Using new customers to pay out earlier ones.

I don't believe there was any ill intent on TH part; I don't believe they intended to do bad here.  They were inexperienced, and they allowed their desire to make a profit cloud their judgment and they did things that were bad.
If I started a business without the capital to do so, and used people's preorder money to develop or build my product, and a supplier went bad on me I would 100% expect my customers to demand refunds and fight for them, including suing me for them.  Would it suck?  Would it ruin and bankrupt me?  yes.  I would have to go after my supplier to try to salvage my finances.  That's the way business works, and it's why you NEVER start a business with customer money.  You come up with the capital, you find a way to get what you need on credit, you find a way to get an income to the business without the merchandise (through services or other products that you can deliver) first.  If you can't do that, you admit to yourself that you do not have the resources to undertake the venture.

EDIT: The above is also why a lot of business ventures go looking for venture capital from investors.  That way they're not using customer money to fund the business, they're not doing something illegal.  The investors aren't customers and know there is a real risk of losing all of their money and having nothing to show for it.  They're compensated by ownership interest in the venture.

The voice of reason!

It boggles my mind why this type of a write up is even required.  These are the absolute most basic of fundamentals when it comes to starting ANY business.

Let me put it another way, there is a legal difference between a customer and an investor and a companies responsibility to both are VERY different.  The risk level of both is also legally VERY different.  What the vast majority of ASIC start ups currently on offer are asking for is investomers, but guess what the law doesn't allow for investomers.  According to the law you are a customer (shopping/purchasing for a good(s) or service(s), and have the appropriate risk/reward structure and protections) or you are an investor (funding the business in exchange for future considerations ie royalties, equity etc etc).

Until the BTC community starts to think like the real world on the most basic of levels these companies will continue to operate this way.

Please people stop giving away all your power (read: money).  As is clearly evident from the likes of BFL and Avalon (obviously there's others) once you pre-pay in full 99% of your power is out of your hands and the 1% you have left is most likely a long, expensive battle to recoup pennies on the dollars in a worst case.

[ak49er]

It boggles my mind why this type of a write up is even required.  These are the absolute most basic of fundamentals when it comes to starting ANY business.

It boggles my mind that there was any expectation that Terrahash was operating on anything other than the best of intentions.

[Flying Hellfish]

It boggles my mind why this type of a write up is even required.  These are the absolute most basic of fundamentals when it comes to starting ANY business.

It boggles my mind that there was any expectation that Terrahash was operating on anything other than the best of intentions.

If that was directed at me, could you kindly point out where I indicated anything about TH's intentions?